Did Andrew Wakefield Perpetrate an "Elaborate Fraud"?

[Nordic]

I've known just too many people who have had this happen with their own children to attribute it to misdiagnosis.

Something happens to the kids and they never come out of it.

[barracuda]

I didn't say anything about misdiagnosis, but rather that what is known as autism probably emanates from a number of very different pathologies, and shouldn't be monolithically considered. From my link above:

One of the biggest challenges is that autism is not one thing: It's a catchall diagnosis that likely includes a host of biologically distinct disorders. Though children with autism share a set of symptoms, these symptoms are quite varied and may have many, diverse biological origins. "Autism is incredibly heterogeneous. We've been lumping everyone together under this name autism, and unfortunately it makes it very difficult to study the biological features when we are treating multiple groups as one,"

Essentially, to point at a single overriding cause for this host of disorders may be misguided.

[Nordic]

Yes, "misdiagnosis" was the wrong word for me to use. We're not in disagreement there. It's like suddenly everybody has ADHD, or suddenly everybody is bipolar. Gosh, suddenly we're having to give everybody Seroquel and Abilify!

So yeah.

My point remains that I've personally known way too many people who have watched their kids undergo an immediate change after vaccinations, one they never come out of, and after which they are for all intents and purposes "autistic" in the classic sense of the word (if one exists).

[jam.fuse]

Nordic, if you haven't yet, watch the four part video with Rashid Buttar, the first two parts of which I posted upstream, you can find the rest on youtube, I will post them here when I can. He says he has had success treating autism by chelating out the toxic metals from victims of bad vaccines, maybe there is hope for your friends' kids.

As for Gary Null, I listened to him for years on WBAI in NYC. I have found him to be consistently informative, and find the attempt by the poster above to discredit him insubstantial. I encourage readers here to check out the full Vaccine Nation docu on youtube, sure to be interesting, at least. I confess I havent watched it yet myself to my current technological limitations.

Common sense tells me injecting infants with toxic metals is not a good thing, I don't care how many industry thugs and their cheerleaders say otherwise. This from the same people who sold us lobotomies, electroshock therapy and other medical miracles.

Do you realize that if you made a list of every single ingredient in the things you consume/absorb/inhale on a daily basis it would be loaded with all of the things that are or sound toxic on that list, and in much larger quantities?

Absurd statement.

[lupercal]

^ Exactamundo jam.fuse. It's the mercury in the thimerosal preservative Nordic, has been all along, though no doubt there are plenty of other neuro-toxins in these little poison bombs too. The reason there's a current "epidemic" is that the vaccination schedule has changed to ramp up the total number of CDC-recommended immunizations to something like 32 by the age of 6, including multiple doses of Hepatitis B vaccine (HepB), Rotavirus vaccine (RV), Diphtheria and tetanus toxoids and acellular pertussis vaccine (DTaP), Haemophilus influenzae type b conjugate vaccine (Hib), Pneumococcal vaccine, Inactivated poliovirus vaccine (IPV), Measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine (MMR), Hepatitis A vaccine (HepA), and Meningococcal conjugate vaccine, quadrivalent (MCV4), plus annual Influenza shots, according to the CDC's own "Recommended Immunization Schedule for Persons Aged 0 Through 6 Years":

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/schedu ... ule-pr.pdf

And I don't even see tetanus on this thing, so add that to the yearly flu shots and we're looking at 40+ recommended "immunizations" by age 6. And you wonder why there's an epidemic?

[barracuda]

As for Gary Null, I listened to him for years on WBAI in NYC. I have found him to be consistently informative, and find the attempt by the poster above to discredit him insubstantial.

jam.fuse, Gary Null is associated closely enough with Scientology that I think we can safely disqualify him from further reference in this discussion per the posting guidelines, regardless if some of the information on his dubiousness may originate from QuackWatch. Not all of it does.

[compared2what?]

Okay, if I've become "that poster above,' and people are raising points and sources the serious problems with which were fully and patiently explained (mostly by plutonia) twenty pages ago, and -- really, this is, to me, the only important one -- if what I think I'm doing is drawing jam.fuse's attention to information about Gary Null's judgment and qualifications that (it seemed to me) any person who was putting his or her trust in Gary Null's say-so when it came to health and medical issues would want to know, but what jam.fuse (apparently) thinks I'm doing is attempting to discredit the man out of pure personal hostility or some similarly nasty motive that no one would appreciate, then:

It's that time again!

You guys have fun without me. I like talking to catbirdsteed very much. But if you all have a cheery consensus going to which I can add nothing that anyone wants to hear or is even capable of believing that I'd say for any reason other than an ugly one, it's obviously much better for everyone if I bow out.

I'm sorry I offended you, jam.fuse. And anyone else I offended who indicated as much but without my being aware of it because, among other things, I've been out all day and only just now read the last couple of posts. You all may be right and I wrong, for all I know. And I hope for the best outcome, whatever that is.

[compared2what?]

On a possibly somewhat less lovely note, you know what? The last time I graciously left a thread on this subject it was in response to this post here.

And my immediate reason for doing so was that I just couldn't bear the prospect of telling undead that I was sorry that I'd been mistaken about SSRIs being classifed as calmatives and even sorrier not to have been mistaken about the larger point of his that I'd been questioning (-- ie, that the government was currently developing weaponized SSRIs). Which I really, genuinely was. Because not only did the report to which he linked make it plain as day that the government was doing nothing of the kind for much the same sorts of reasons that I'd suggested they wouldn't and couldn't be, the wording in his post made it fairly plain that he knew that perfectly well already.

So I felt bad for him. Because I figured that he either had a need to believe in what he was saying that was strong enough to distort his perceptions or a need to be right that was so strong that he was willing to forego the much more pleasurable and much more basic human need for honestly self-respecting self-expression in order to satisfy it.

I've since regretted that particular judgment call, however. Because it wasn't really an act of consideration. It was an act of cowardice. So I'm correcting it.

Which I'm sure you're all fascinated to know. ( ) Sorry. But at least the same conflict doesn't arise in this case, pretty much all of what's being posted now having already been addressed by a dissenting voice earlier in the thread. So read it if you feel like it. And if not, carry on.

Yours, respectfully.

[hava1]

I havent read the thread at all, but given the mention here of state experiments , in Israel definitely there is suspicious interest,state sponsored by infamous agencies, in Autism...
In esoteric kook circles autistic kids are "channeling" directly from God....as well (religious circles, here).

[catbirdsteed]

hava1, that is truly frightening, can you provide some journalism about this trend?

c2w, I can see why the linked thread was disturbing to you. jam.fuse was warned, so don't get too discouraged. I do agree with- this being RI and all- Gary Null and Mike Adams being off limits. I have been studiously- at least as far as steering away from obvious CoS affiliated stuff- much more careful about my links since that last round earlier in the thread. It is still possible that I would post an item from a sketchy source.
If c2w is gone, it will be up to barracuda or plutonia (or others) to ferret out the verboten association. I respect the need for someone to do so. Hopefully, whoever does that will be brief and effective.

I can almost feel the long term trend where in eventually vaccines will be recognized as nearly as dangerous (sometimes) as some of us suggest, but the party line will remain intact that "AW is wrong" for much longer. I'm may be easier for the industry to simply forget the whole episode ever transpired if (and when) his "notions" are accepted.

I was excited to see a lot of new activity in here general, Nordic's post being a very good one. The Dr. Rashid Buttar vids are good too, even thought he mentions DAN! I do want to highlight the F. Edward Yazbak MD excerpt that I put up just before the flurry of new posts. In fact, Yazbak was "pulling a Wakefield" on vaccines and autism long before Wakefield himself had the chance. It will address the question "why are there no studies that "duplicate" Wakefield's findings?" There are, but they will be systematically trashed, and if the science is too solid to allow that they, will be repressed. The SV 40 issue,and the history of the polio eradication BEGINNING before the vaccine, and the epidemic polio like issues coming from DDT is worth considering.

http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2010/ ... -from-god/

December 6, 2010

Suzanne Humphries, MD

"It’s fall in the northern hemisphere and more than one type of darkness has set in. Vaccines are being injected at lightning speed. New vaccines, untested vaccines, double-strength flu vaccines for the over 65 group; none of which have been shown to be effective at keeping anyone healthy. The naïve are lining up at clinics, shopping malls, and retail stores. They don’t know which kind of vaccine they will receive. Which manufacturer is it? Does it have mercury? What chemicals does it contain? Why should they care? Why would they not trust their doctor (or their local pharmacist)?

These healthcare professionals say it is a good idea to get a flu vaccine to stay healthy this winter, so they allow disease to be injected into their muscles. The people have been mesmerized, duped and frightened by a bogeyman illness called the flu. Ironically, the real bogeyman – the silent monster that can wreak unrecognized havoc – just slipped beneath their skin, completely unnoticed, and masquerading as something healthy, called a vaccine. Despite any logic or science behind the mass marketing of the flu and pneumonia jabs, these vaccines remain the most recommended solution to preventing disease by the uninformed, propaganda-parroting practitioners.

The people who are getting vaccinated and the practitioners who are pushing vaccines are parishioners of the largest church on earth. They can be very devout and unreasonable. They believe this medical religion, vaccination, has saved millions of lives. They’ve read the holy bible of Merck and believe the mantras of the CDC that vaccines have eradicated disease from the Earth. They must be a gift from some god, right? But what else have these indoctrinated persons in white coats read about vaccines? With few exceptions, precious little. Most who administer these slurries don’t even know what ingredients are in them.

No matter how obvious the true cause of so much human misery becomes – that people are actually being sickened and immunosuppressed by vaccines and drugs – the pharma-faithful can’t see the cause. Here’s why: Doctors are the modern day priests and priestesses, anointing their followers with prescriptions. The priests are infatuated with and addicted to the power endowed to them. They strut about, cock-sure that they were rightly taught the one and only true form of medicine, and they are fulfilling their service to humanity. They have been successfully ordained into the Brotherhood. They have no intentions of doubting or abandoning their programming, even when they witness someone healing without drugs, or being healthy without vaccines. Where would they be if they realized that the earth would be better off without their temples and holy water? They are unintentionally dependent on their devotees’ illnesses and on the system that taught them to spar with disease rather than heal it. The temple of mirrors is filled with smoke, and creates illusions that will keep the sick coming back for more."

http://liamscheff.podbean.com/2011/02/2 ... cine-myth/
Vaccines are not magical. They are made of …….. Do you want to know? ……!!!!
Listen Now:
Dr. Suzanne Humphries and Liam Scheff take apart the Vaccine Myth
February 21st, 2011 — liamscheff

Join investigative journalist and researcher Liam Scheff with special guest Dr. Suzanne Humphries as they take apart the Vaccine Myth!




http://jnci.oxfordjournals.org/content/94/3/229.2.full

Re: Debate on the Link Between SV40 and Human Cancer Continues
Michele Carbone and Harvey I. Pass

First, the statement in the sidebar that SV40 causes “abnormalities” in human cells underestimates the extent of damage. Human cells infected by SV40 in vitro develop extensive genetic damage [(2), reviewed in (3)] and have grown as tumor nodules when injected into volunteers (4). The susceptibility of human cells to SV40 is cell type dependent, with mesothelial cells the most susceptible (2,3,,5). SV40 is the only known carcinogen that, by itself, causes malignant transformation and immortalization of human mesothelial cells in tissue culture (2,3,,5).

Second, the incidence of mesothelioma in the United States has increased from nearly none in 1955 to approximately 2500 cases per year, and SV40 may be one of the contributing factors.

Third, the hypothesis that most mesotheliomas occurred in an age group that could not have been exposed to SV40-contaminated polio vaccines (1) reflects a common but mistaken belief that, during the “contamination” period (1955 through 1961), only newborns and children were vaccinated. In the United States, 34.7 million people aged 20–59 years were vaccinated with potentially contaminated polio vaccine during this period (3). This is the cohort in which most mesotheliomas have developed in the past 20 years (3). Furthermore, administration of the oral-attenuated polio vaccine in the early 1960s exposed both the recipient and his contacts to the poliovirus and to SV40 because both viruses were infectious. There is also evidence that SV40-contaminated vaccines were produced and distributed after 1961 (6). Finally, even if polio vaccines contributed to the spread of SV40, other mechanisms of transmission presumably exist because SV40 has been detected in nonvaccinated individuals (3).

Fourth, epidemiology studies [reviewed in (3)] have measured the association of the polio vaccine with the overall increase in cancer. However, one would not expect increases in rare cancers such as mesotheliomas to affect overall cancer rates. Two independent studies of cohorts vaccinated in early childhood with potentially contaminated polio vaccines (3) suggested an increased risk of mesothelioma (relative risk, ≥3). However, the number of cases was small because mesotheliomas are rare in people younger than 50 years; thus, it is premature to make definitive conclusions about an increased risk of mesothelioma in individuals vaccinated with SV40-contaminated polio vaccines (3).

Fifth, several groups have used various technical approaches (immunostaining, messenger RNA in situ hybridization, and primed in situ hybridization) to demonstrate that SV40 is present in malignant mesothelioma cells but not in nearby normal cells (3). Moreover, SV40 has been detected in mesothelioma cells and not in nearby nonmalignant cells microdissected from the same slide (3).

Sixth, SV40 is not always lost when mesothelioma cells are cultured (5); accordingly, treatment with an antisense construct to the SV40 T antigen arrests SV40-positive mesothelioma cells in tissue culture [reviewed in (7)]. Also, Epstein-Barr, another episomal virus, is often lost when human nasopharyngeal tumor cells are put in tissue culture.

Seventh, it has recently been shown that a small number of mesothelioma cells infected with SV40 can induce the growth of nearby noninfected cells (5).

Eighth, enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay tests are not reliable to distinguish among SV40 and the human polyomaviruses JC and BK. However, DNA sequencing can reliably distinguish these three viruses (3).

Finally, experts from around the world in the fields of virology, molecular genetics, mesothelioma, brain and bone tumors, and oncology, including many skeptical of the association between SV40 and human cancer, discussed it at a consensus meeting at the University of Chicago, IL, on April 20–21, 2001. The scientists who chaired the final panel discussion (and who are not directly involved with this research) concluded that “the presence of SV40 in some human tumors has been convincingly demonstrated . . . the possible role of SV40 in the pathogenesis of mesothelioma has been considerably strengthened since the 1997 NCI conference” (7).
* © Oxford University Press

[Plutonia]

catbirdsteed for the record I am squarely on your side on this issue. Injecting mixed metals into a small child 30 times is so stupid it defies my ability to believe they can sell people on the fact that it is a wise thing to do. If we had the time and desire to do so, we could list a pro and con sheet on this one that would be so heavy on the con side that the sheet would flip right off the table. Speaking of "cons", the number of cons that are run in the vaccine industry are so large we could probably spend year trying to document them all. In my opinion, autism or no autism, this one should be a no brainer.

eyeno, you've put your finger on the persuasive tool employed by the anti-vax rhetoricians in your statement here. Everything else about this "debate" is just a carefully crafted chain of false dichotomies which subvert any sort of nuanced exploration of the issues.

If I say that there is no link between autism and vaccination, then I am de facto defending the pharmaceutical industry.

If I say that vaccines are dangerous, then I tacitly agree that vaccines cause autism.

The discussion pretty much ends there. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

The point that I've repeatedly tried to make in this thread is that it's possible for vaccines to not be safe and also not the cause of autism. See how that works?

Concern for the children is perhaps the emotional thought-stopper and the success of this psy-op, which it clearly is, contains an irony that barely gets acknowledged, which is that autistic (or mis-diagnosed as autistic) children are being harmed as a result of it because it's now open season on subjecting them to dangerous experimental procedures, like chellation with industrial grade chemicals or Lupron "therapy." There is now a multi-million dollar industry around care and treatment of autism as a result of Wakefield's false claims, and even though in recent interviews Wakefield is now claiming that he discovered an entirely new disorder, he is setting up a treatment home for adult autistics. How is research, treatment and care that's based on a false premise helpful to anyone? Except those that are willing to exploit the hysteria for profit? Well, what about Wakefields' new disorder? How come that doesn't get discussed? How come the one thing that never comes off the table is the autism?

If you look back through this thread you will find Scientology-linked organizations and front groups are actively promoting the vaccine-autism connection and they, as is clear from their past activities, have their own, inscrutable agenda. It's the same with the Tea Party, and for those of you who have to deal with friends and neighbors under sway of their rhetoric, I invite you to examine the similarities between these two campaigns. I can tell you as an adult autist myself, that the anti-vaxers and their zealotry, are a scourge to my community.

One last thing that some of you may find of interest, especially in light of the point that Hava made- it's a story from Martin Luthor that is occasionally cited as evidence of the existence of autism, pre-vaccine science:

The Story of a Changeling at Dessau
Eight years ago [in the year 1532] at Dessau, I, Dr. Martin Luther, saw and touched a changeling. It was twelve years old, and from its eyes and the fact that it had all of its senses, one could have thought that it was a real child. It did nothing but eat; in fact, it ate enough for any four peasants or threshers. It ate, shit, and pissed, and whenever someone touched it, it cried. When bad things happened in the house, it laughed and was happy; but when things went well, it cried. It had these two virtues. I said to the Princes of Anhalt: "If I were the prince or the ruler here, I would throw this child into the water--into the Molda that flows by Dessau. I would dare commit homicidium on him!" But the Elector of Saxony, who was with me at Dessau, and the Princes of Anhalt did not want to follow my advice. Therefore, I said: "Then you should have all Christians repeat the Lord's Prayer in church that God may exorcise the devil." They did this daily at Dessau, and the changeling child died in the following year.... Such a changeling child is only a piece of flesh, a massa carnis, because it has no soul.

Source: Martin Luther, Werke, kritische Gesamtausgabe: Tischreden (Weimar: Böhlau, 1912-1921), v. 5, p. 9.

http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/gerchange.html#LutherDessau

Yes, that's right - throw him in the river! So what's changed?


NB: catbird, you got your post in before me, and I appreciate your efforts to vet your sources . Do you have any response to Wakefields recent claim to have discovered a new disorder back in 1998?

[hava1]

hava1, that is truly frightening, can you provide some journalism about this trend?

[/quote
journalism on what ?

Channeling via autistic children is very common in the religious circles
http://m424.com/metaksherim.htm

this is from the media
http://www.news1.co.il/Archive/001-D-13 ... g=10-59-22
one example (in Hebrew) of many....

[barracuda]

Yes, that's right - throw him in the river! So what's changed?

I was discussing this last night with a friend and they brought up the case of Karen McCarron. From the trial:

...McCarron told her defense attorney that she felt responsible for Katie's autism because she allowed her the child to get vaccinated.

"As you suffocated your daughter... who did you think you were killing?"
"Autism."

[Plutonia]

Yes, that's right - throw him in the river! So what's changed?

I was discussing this last night with a friend and they brought up the case of Karen McCarron. From the trial:

...McCarron told her defense attorney that she felt responsible for Katie's autism because she allowed her the child to get vaccinated.

"As you suffocated your daughter... who did you think you were killing?"
"Autism."

Yeah, not really surprising given the consistent portrays of autism as a catastrophic nightmare, even by so-called advocacy groups.



Blech.

Can you imagine altruistic homicide being an acceptable defense for the murder of a Downs Syndrome child and the perpetrator then being elevated to prominence within the advocacy community?

In 1996 six-year-old Charles-Antoine Blais was held underwater by his mother’s hands until he drowned. In 1997 Danielle Blais was given a 23-month suspended sentence after being allowed to plead guilty to manslaughter. According to reports, Ms. Blais was depressed because she lacked the financial support that she needed for her son who had autism, and intended to commit suicide after killing him. "In the summer of 1997, Ms Blais was sentenced not to jail, but to a year in a community residential centre, and she was hired as a representative--a sort of role model--by Montreal's autism society, as promised by Ms Lahaie. [President of Montreal's Autism Society]"

There is a web site I wish to direct you, where you will read some of the worst biased and shocking attitudes towards children with autism, and this coming from an organization that is funded to help families with this condition. Example: "Carmen Lahaie, President of Montreal's autism society, stated in the media that Charles-Antoine was "happy now" that he was dead." Lahaie's response to Dawson's question is reprehensible: "When I heard this on the national news, I phoned Ms Lahaie, stunned. What are you doing, I asked. She said, you can't understand, our children have ruined our lives." Unbelievable but true, "Carmen Lahaie is still President of Montreal's autism society. She's the one who's called autistic people a "plague", more than once (a plague that should be eradicated once and for all). There is now an annual award in her honour." The murder of Charles-Antoine Blais, appears in Michelle Dawson’s blog who also has autism and has written extensively on autism. Follow her links.

[Exerted from 1/4 the way down the page]

http://www.chninternational.com/history ... n%2007.htm

So these are the bizzaro social pre-conditions that the Co$ and the anti-vaxers have jumped into, and amplified and exploited, because Hey! Anything is permissible where the child is considered to be monsterous or even already dead and uniquely disposable.

Does this level of callous cruelty not seem strangely disproportionate to anyone but me?

[Nordic]

FWIW, in my stepdaughter's world there are several "autistic" kids, some of whom are extremely popular. One of the boys in particular, who has Aspergers, has to beat the girls off with a stick (my stepdaughter even went for him for a while). I have a friend with an autistic son in high school, and this kid also does really well with the ladies. Go figure!