Naw, ya know what?

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Re: Naw, ya know what?

Postby AlicetheKurious » Sat Apr 30, 2011 9:12 am

I've also avoided even looking at the misogyny thread, but I'll still share my thoughts here.

I remember reading about a study that showed that men actually hear less of a message if it's spoken in a woman's voice than if the same message were to be transmitted in a man's voice. I thought to myself, "well, that's not surprising". If you think about it, common sense and experience teaches us that in general, people tend to pay more attention to words spoken by people with whom they identify. Rich people are more likely to listen to another rich person, Whites are more likely to other Whites, adults are more likely to listen to other adults, university professors are more likely to listen to other university professors, etc.

But then I thought about it some more and reviewed my experience some more, and realized that this is not always true. The determining variable in how clearly a person's message gets through is not always, as I had initially assumed, whether the listener identifies with the speaker. Far more important is the perceived likelihood that the speaker has a message that is immediately relevant to the listener, the more immediately the better. This is very important, because it helps us to avoid wasting our time and energy banging our heads against brick walls. It tells us that no matter how articulately formulated, or how morally lofty, or how logical or even how urgent the message is to the speaker, it will simply not get through unless the listener believes that it represents a genuine solution to his or her pressing problem.

People care a lot more about their own problems than they do about other people's problems. They might give lip-service or even make a gesture or a donation, but the less relevant the problem is to them personally, the lower the price they're willing to pay to solve it. Therefore, if you want to make your urgent problem matter to someone else, you have to somehow make it into their urgent problem, preferably without identifying yourself as their enemy, which can be very counter-productive if they have more power than you do. One way to do that is to take stock of the resources at your disposal that you may not be using or even be fully aware that you have, and then mobilize them quietly to create a counterbalancing force through which you can impose your will. Depending on the circumstances, it's usually safer to do this while remaining under the radar.

I'm not specifically addressing misogyny here, per se, just thinking out loud about power imbalances and injustice and suggesting that there are effective and ineffective ways to address them. Purely for convenience, I'll refer to those whom the power imbalance favors as "Group A" and those who are marginalized or actively oppressed as "Group B". In my view, the least effective course of action is for the members of "Group B" to waste their time and energy on a futile effort to persuade "Group A" that the current situation is catastrophic, because it's not, to them.

It's much more efficient and ultimately effective to focus one's effort on those who are already suffering and motivated to change things but feel helpless and don't know what to do. This is crucial, for two reasons: the first is the one I mentioned before, because there is safety in numbers but more importantly, power. The second is that working among those who share the same problem(s) that you do helps you to identify and formulate specific objectives that need to be fulfilled, rather than vague and diffuse complaints that are difficult to address in a concrete and measurable way.

In other words, if change is really what you're after, three things must be done:

1) Identify a specific, concrete problem that is immediate and widely shared;

2) Draft a list of specific, concrete steps that can be taken to solve this problem, including those that address other issues that indirectly or directly contribute to this problem;

3) Do your part to mobilize as many affected individuals as possible into a front dedicated to the achievement of these goals. Promote solidarity through shared values, knowledge, resources and objectives.

Note that all of these involve working with others who share the same problem, rather than appealing to those who do not. Ultimately, it boils down to power, period. Guilt trips and complaints and arguments about whether this word or that is "offensive" in my view are passive-aggressive substitutes for taking practical, targeted action to effect genuine change. They represent a dangerously seductive illusion, for both sides, because only weak people use them but they allow both sides to pretend that the "dialogue" is taking place on a level playing field. Rather than transform the power imbalance, they entrench them, confuse everybody and siphon off valuable energy, as Maddy's title so eloquently attests.
"If you're not careful the newspapers will have you hating the oppressed and loving the people doing the oppressing." - Malcolm X
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Re: Naw, ya know what?

Postby Canadian_watcher » Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:07 am

82_28 wrote: And all about gender to boot?


but it's not about gender. It's about prejudice and hostility.
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift
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Re: Naw, ya know what?

Postby brainpanhandler » Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:35 am

82_28 wrote:Misogyny thread fucked up a lot about this place in my view. And not that it wasn't a noble subject that the community here could not tackle in its own malformed way to get at some "truth", but it turned into the opposite. And absolutely, absolutely nothing done "wrong" in my view by C_w insofar as "creating" it.

But, it has certainly soured me about here and who and what wants to post around and about.

Peeps need to get a grip. This is the Internet. And if I could come up with a place with more beautiful people and personalities in the whole of the English speaking web, this place would be it. This attrition has gone too far. And all about gender to boot? WTF? There is precisely nothing we can do about what attributes we were born with. You're going to have male opinions and female opinions. And to that I say "fuck that shit". We have opinions. There is no polar difference. We are here.

I was wholesale offended by some here, but it does not make me appreciate them any less. I have told some my piece and it shall be left at that. I appeared to have been flipping out, but what I was doing was carving out a space for myself which I don't give a fuck if you're a man or a woman, I come here in peace and I relayed a story -- actually in hopes of circumventing cannibalistic argument which ALL was taken the wrong way.

I really fear good ol' RI may have run its course.

Shouldn't we carry on and be friends still?



I suppose if no one ever tells you what a twit you are you'll never know, not that you will now either. twit. But I don't mean that in a bad way.
"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Martin Luther King Jr.
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Re: Naw, ya know what?

Postby norton ash » Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:39 am

It's hateful
And it's paid for
And I'm so grateful
To be a shallow, dippy dilettante from nowhere.

Having said that, I really hope nobody leaves. We need all of us.

And if anyone really needs to get the last word in, maybe it should be 'understand.' As in 'I'm sorry, I'll try harder to understand.'
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Re: Naw, ya know what?

Postby crikkett » Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:42 am

Project Willow wrote:
waugs wrote:such sweeping, presumptive statements about people with different genitalia than you...


What, you already run the world, you got to rub our noses in it when we say we're unhappy about it?

.......

Please don't leave me here alone women!

I'm still here
I'm just not going back to the Misogyny thread. It's a tarbaby.

PS I'm not here to negotiate sexual politics. I'm quite successful at that in life. I'm here to talk and learn about things I can't discuss in 'polite company' - UFOs, holistic medicine, transhumanism, international mystery and intrigue.
Last edited by crikkett on Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Naw, ya know what?

Postby Canadian_watcher » Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:44 am

Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift
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Re: Naw, ya know what?

Postby norton ash » Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:56 am

Don't hate on Men Without Hats, they had polymorphic Montreal sex with each other, and 20 years later Arcade Fire was born.



I got.. what?
I got a woman inside
Uh huh
Oooh yeah

I said, hey men.
Quit knocking your children ’round
I say, hey-hey men.
Quit mowin your women down
’cause it’s all in the way
That you look at who you are
So hey hey men
Quit looking so far
Oooh yeah
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Re: Naw, ya know what?

Postby crikkett » Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:02 am

AlicetheKurious wrote:Guilt trips and complaints and arguments about whether this word or that is "offensive" in my view are passive-aggressive substitutes for taking practical, targeted action to effect genuine change. They represent a dangerously seductive illusion, for both sides, because only weak people use them but they allow both sides to pretend that the "dialogue" is taking place on a level playing field. Rather than transform the power imbalance, they entrench them, confuse everybody and siphon off valuable energy, as Maddy's title so eloquently attests.

:clapping:
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Re: Naw, ya know what?

Postby jam.fuse » Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:11 am

best and only i know of female operated political blog

http://marisacat.wordpress.com/
'I beat the Devil with a shovel so he dropped me another level' -- Redman
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Re: Naw, ya know what?

Postby Canadian_watcher » Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:15 am

jam.fuse wrote:best and only i know of female operated political blog

http://marisacat.wordpress.com/


what? there are bunnies and dogs on there. And Royals.

Try this one: http://firedoglake.com/ for starters
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift
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Re: Naw, ya know what?

Postby jam.fuse » Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:18 am

Don/t sass me woman. Lots of trenchant analysis there. despite visuals. It provides a balance.

I am of the opinion truth is not expressible solely by the written word. Ultimately physical presence, or voice is required.
'I beat the Devil with a shovel so he dropped me another level' -- Redman
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Re: Naw, ya know what?

Postby JackRiddler » Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:25 am

Canadian_watcher wrote:
jam.fuse wrote:best and only i know of female operated political blog

http://marisacat.wordpress.com/


what? there are bunnies and dogs on there. And Royals.

Try this one: http://firedoglake.com/ for starters


Yeah, but it seems to be slappin'em. The Royals, I mean.

Did anyone catch the military uniform worn by Harry? Epaulets, stand-up collar and gold swag that managed to look heavy. And lots of it. Obviously, faded empire has too much in common with lunatic tin pot dictators.


She can't help being a cat and pest lover, you know. Oops, not pests, pets, I mean p-e-t-s. It's hardwired.
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Re: Naw, ya know what?

Postby JackRiddler » Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:27 am

By the way, this is an upsettin' development and I hope C_w and M don't go away, and pray for certain men to get a clue. (Yer making us look bad.)
Last edited by JackRiddler on Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

TopSecret WallSt. Iraq & more
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Re: Naw, ya know what?

Postby JackRiddler » Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:29 am

Burnt Hill wrote:The clickish part bothered me recently with the "DogTooth" thread.


What does that have to do with this discussion? There was a game in one thread, and either you didn't like it or didn't get it or didn't care. So?
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

TopSecret WallSt. Iraq & more
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Re: Naw, ya know what?

Postby Nordic » Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:44 am

so is that misogyny thread locked yet?

"tarbaby" is right.
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
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