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Searcher08 wrote:I have not read much of Atzmon, but he really does get up the noses of people like Alan Dershowitz.
I thought the article didn't seem to focus much on what he was saying, but more on how he was bad because bad people liked him. Which seems to be an argument by association. The logic FAILS. It is a HUGE waste of time and effort and very intellectually dishonest to critique a person by who does or doesnt like his ideas, rather than on their own merits / de-merits. It is a form of collectivist social metaphysics, where you let others decide what you should think, rather than thinking for yourself.
I did think it was interesting re causality. For example in the his history of Ukraine, there was great hatred of Jews for being the collectors of taxes/ bailiffs of the Polish/Lithuanian nobility. When there was a rebellion by the Cossacks, they became a target. It was actually similar to the dynamic in 1798 in Ireland, where many Church Of Ireland members were tax collectors for English estates and when the rebellion happened, the people they oppressed (Catholics and Presbyterians whose taxes actually contributed to their oppressors) turned on them, albeit unsuccessfully.
seemslikeadream wrote:It is, as such, not surprising that Atzmon's work has received enthusiastic reviews by such prominent members of the racist right as former Ku Klux Klan leader David Duke, Kevin MacDonald of the Occidental Observer, David Icke, and Arthur Topham's the Radical Press. It should not be surprising that Atzmon has distributed articles defending Holocaust deniers and those who write of "the Hitler we loved and why."15 These connections ultimately serve the interests of Zionism, which seeks to conflate anti-Zionism with anti-Jewishness. Zionist agents have repeatedly attempted to ensnare and link Palestinian, Arab, and/or Muslim rights advocates to Neo-Nazism, through dirty tricks and outright lies.
It is more surprising and disappointing, then, that a small section of the left has opted to promote Atzmon and his works. In the UK, the Socialist Workers Party promoted Atzmon for several years16 before finally breaking with him; his latest book The Wandering Who? has been published by the left-wing Zero Books (a decision that elicited a letter of protest from several Zero authors).17 In the United States, the widely-read Counterpunch website has repeatedly chosen to run articles by Atzmon. Currently, in February and March 2012, Atzmon is on tour in North America, where several of his speaking engagements are being organized by progressive anti-imperialists whom we would normally like to consider our allies.
THROUGH DIRTY TRICKS AND OUTRIGHT LIES
THE RULES OF INFERENCE
The cogent core point of the OP wrote:While perhaps well-meaning, operating under the assumption that any opposition to Zionism is to be welcomed, progressives who promote the work of Atzmon are in fact surrendering the moral high ground by encouraging a belief-system that simply mirrors that of the most racist section of Israeli society. Anti-racism is not a liability; on the contrary, it is a principle that makes our movements stronger in the long fight for a better tomorrow.
In our struggle against Zionism, racism, and all forms of colonialism and imperialism, there is no place for anti-Semitism or the vilification of Jews, Palestinians, or any people based on their religions, cultures, nationalities, ethnicity, or history.
It obscures the reality that Zionism is an imperialist and colonialist enemy of Jewish people and Palestinians, as well as the Arab people generally and all those oppressed and exploited by imperialism.
Sounder wrote:Visiting that site left me with a feeling, and I do not like this feeling, but it is one where Judaism and Zionism do not look all that distinct.
Sounder wrote:It obscures the reality that Zionism is an imperialist and colonialist enemy of Jewish people and Palestinians, as well as the Arab people generally and all those oppressed and exploited by imperialism.
It sounds like Gilead would say this is a cover for Jewish exceptionalism.
After flagging the above quote as a thing to agree with, the thoughts in my head turned in a different direction. Most of us probably see Zionism as an imperialist project. But social changes work best if the locals think it was their idea to begin with. In this case we have a group that has been socially engineered to gather in one place to function as a western beachhead in the Muslim world.
I noticed when visiting an Israeli blog recently how strong and internalized is the existential fear of being wiped off the map by an Iranian nuclear bomb. It does not bode well for anybody that so many people in such a small area are living with such a mindset. That is, one where it is justified to kill if one is merely feeling threatened by actions of others.
Visiting that site left me with a feeling, and I do not like this feeling, but it is one where Judaism and Zionism do not look all that distinct.
Attempting to latch onto the just, vital, and growing movement in support of the Palestinian national liberation struggle, Gilad Atzmon is one of a very small and unrepresentative group of writers who have argued (in agreement with many Zionists) that there is no meaningful distinction to be made between Jews in general and Israeli atrocities. According to Atzmon, the latter are simply a manifestation of Jews' historic relationship to gentiles, an authentic expression of an essentially racist, immoral, and anti-human "Jewish ideology."
Atzmon's statements, besides distorting the history of Jews and constituting a brazen justification for centuries of anti-Jewish behavior and beliefs, also downgrade anti-Zionism to a mere front in the broader (anti-Jewish) struggle. Atzmon has specifically described Zionism not as a form of colonialism or settlerism, but as a uniquely evil ideology unlike anything else in human history. In addition to any ethical problems, this line of argumentation actually strengthens Zionism's grip and claim to be the authentic representative of Jews. It obscures the reality that Zionism is an imperialist and colonialist enemy of Jewish people and Palestinians, as well as the Arab people generally and all those oppressed and exploited by imperialism.
Searcher08 wrote:I have not read much of Atzmon, but he really does get up the noses of people like Alan Dershowitz.
I thought the article didn't seem to focus much on what he was saying, but more on how he was bad because bad people liked him. Which seems to be an argument by association. The logic FAILS. It is a HUGE waste of time and effort and very intellectually dishonest to critique a person by who does or doesnt like his ideas, rather than on their own merits / de-merits. It is a form of collectivist social metaphysics, where you let others decide what you should think, rather than thinking for yourself.
I did think it was interesting re causality. For example in the his history of Ukraine, there was great hatred of Jews for being the collectors of taxes/ bailiffs of the Polish/Lithuanian nobility. When there was a rebellion by the Cossacks, they became a target. It was actually similar to the dynamic in 1798 in Ireland, where many Church Of Ireland members were tax collectors for English estates and when the rebellion happened, the people they oppressed (Catholics and Presbyterians whose taxes actually contributed to their oppressors) turned on them, albeit unsuccessfully.
Searcher08 wrote:I have not read much of Atzmon, but he really does get up the noses of people like Alan Dershowitz.
I thought the article didn't seem to focus much on what he was saying, but more on how he was bad because bad people liked him.
Searcher08 wrote:WGUDN? I have searched Google and urbandictionary for that with no results. Please explain
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