"The Lesser Of Two Evils"...Why, Obama Isn't That Bad!

[Wombaticus Rex]

Fascinated to know how a trite symbolic action without meaning can, despite being a pointless dead end, still has the capacity to "rob me of my political power."

I posted that MLK photo for a reason. He did everything -- including voting. If voting, inherently, can make activists give up on all other channels for social change merely by stepping into a booth, I would be interested in having that explained.

[Belligerent Savant]

.

MLK [and all he represented/represents] is indeed a fine example of a great, courageous human. Alas, we all see how that turned out once he reached the point of being perceived as a potential, legit threat.

By no means am I suggesting to sit still. Or not do whatever is within our means, individually or collectively, to affect change in any way we may deem necessary.

I for one am willing to adopt the mien of Scottish highlanders facing the English army — loss is assured, but let’s go out in action rather than on our knees.

My prior reply was simply a spur of the moment/off the cuff commentary touching on the premise of a 'resolution' to something that runs far deeper than any type of fix that can be formulated in a discussion board.

That said, it's cathartic to sit here and discuss such things. Can get quite addictive, actually, no?

[Wombaticus Rex]

My prior reply was simply a spur of the moment/off the cuff commentary touching on the premise of a 'resolution' to something that runs far deeper than any type of fix that can be formulated in a discussion board.

That said, it's cathartic to sit here and discuss such things. Can get quite addictive, actually, no?

Quite so to both!

And cheers to the clarification, it did taste like an overheated metaphor, should have just let it pass right on by.

[JackRiddler]

Resolution? I mean to this debate. Here, not nationally.

To adopt an absolute anti-voting stance is already to make voting more important than it can possibly be in an essentially post-democratic state run to meet the needs of Wall Street, the MIC and the big corps. Let people vote, without illusion that this is a way to change the status quo -- although I would argue it does affect the atmosphere within which movements have more or less room to maneuver. What people do the rest of the time determines more, but voting is hardly the evil some here crack it up to be. (In the current election, I submit it preserves the status quo against something worse. In practice, since 1980 at least, Republican presidents have made the radical changes to status quo, which Democratic presidents have consolidated.)

I do think it makes a difference on the level of popular psychology, which the anti-voting discourse almost never acknowledges -- except to denigrate the current coalition of Democratic voters as "Obamabots" and the like. Generally speaking the majority of the working people, union workers, poor people, black and latino people, people who care about women's rights, gays, liberals, progressives, Muslims and immigrants, not to mention the majority of the college-educated who vote Democratic understand it as the best they can do -- and as actually making a greater difference on the state and local levels -- do not tell me that Walker is not different from a Democratic alternative! These groups are my natural allies, and I don't think of them as "bots," and I prefer to see them feeling encouraged, rather than boosting a bunch of Christianists and right-wing yahoos whose political motivation lies largely in hatred of these groups. A big Obama win is likely to turn the Congress and some statehouses.

It's not that I'm for voting Democrat, but I am very much for the lowest possible Republican share of vote. The crazies have to be neutralized before you can focus on defeating the hypocrites. I often hear the wisdom that "voting for the lesser evil" is what "got us here" but the fact is, the greater evil has more often emerged victorious (in turn making the lesser evil more attractive). If only the greater evil had always lost, you can't say what things would look like today.

Whereas the anti-voting discourse here is as obsessed with the spectacle and personalities as anything in the corporate media. Fact is, the perception of the popular will gained through the election affects how far your putative PTBs can go. A win for Obama won't get a shift to the left, but a win for Romney will get a more dramatic shift to the right (and to new and bigger wars). Preferring that Obama win doesn't represent a justification of Obama's own real crimes, like the drone war, merely a recognition of the reality that things can be much, much worse.

The other thing that the anti-voters here seem to be obsessed with is the smugness of liberals they know. "Because I hate George Clooney and my Facebook friend Joe the Know-It-All Obama defender" should be just about the least important reason for anything.

Here's something else I've noticed: always, the claim is that Obama is no better than or identical to Bush. There's truth in that; Obama is a consolidation of the Bush achievements, bringing these back under putative "law" and making them seem normal and routine. Yet I've never seen anyone claim that Bush was identical to Clinton. Do you see the difference? The neocon revival around Romney should tell you something, as it did when they congregated around Bush in 2000. Those guys aren't about imperialism and bombing to force regime change one country at a time. They're about starting big new highly destabilizing wars with the potential to go nuclear. They are genuinely nuts - it's not an act to them. They aren't doing it to scare liberals! They are not spending billions to influence the electorate, and violating all the laws they can (insofar as any laws are left to limit them) just to scare liberals into voting for Obama!

You do what you can: vote for fewer "dead babies" by US bombs, and then take to organizing and protest for no dead babies at all. Disgusting? Yes. But you're soaking in it. You've been soaking in it since birth. Acknowledge what IS and work for what should be. And don't insult your brothers and sisters who still think the vote makes a difference. Respect the history of sacrifice that went into gaining the franchise. Understand that even if it's rotted into meaningless, it should mean something and may yet come to mean something in the future.

[Nordic]

MLK. That was almost 50 years ago. I don't see a computer anywhere near that voting box.

Things have changed. Including the fact that they murdered him, too.]

And -- (and this is so FUNNY!) -- if the results don't match the exit polls? They blame the exit polls.

Hilarious.

[Nordic]

Uh, clearly closer to number 1 for me. If i have ended up sounding like number 2 (hm, sounding like poop?), then we're not communicating (and which i will take at least partial responsibity for).

Number 2 is modeled on your rhetoric in this thread. I wouldn't even say I'm exaggerating - just compressing.

If it's Number 1, then this discussion should find a resolution. But it never does.

2) Voters are complicit in war crimes! Grrrrrrr!!! If you vote you have committed BABY MURDER just as much as the drone bombers and you deserve the HELLFIRE you will get! So mad at Obama, who's worse than Bush!!! War criminal! Kicking the wall!!! I hate smug liberals!!! I will spend the next six weeks SCREAMING at EVERYONE for the horrific crime of MAKING ALL OF THE WORLD'S EVIL POSSIBLE BY VOTING!!! Lesser-evilism is the philosophy solely responsible for all present-day state of badness. If no one voted, EVERYTHING WOULD BE DIFFERENT!!! I AM PURE!!! I AM TRUE!!! I AM ENTITLED TO SNEER AT YOU! ME AND MY VOTER-HATING BUDS AM THE ONLY SMART ONES HERE!!! EVERYONE ELSE IS HYPNOTIZED!!! OBAMABOTS!@! GRRRRRRRRR!!! DIE!

Hm, I think your perceptions of what I'm saying is heavily clouded by your apparent heavy dislike for me.

Either that or you and I have a serious failure to communicate.

[Hammer of Los]

...

I would have thought it incumbent upon anyone who wishes to prevent thermonuclear world war to do whatever is in their power to prevent the republicans regaining office.

In this case, it appears that means voting for Obama.

A bitter pill, perhaps.

...

[barracuda]

Voting can only rob you of political power if you invest the act of voting with power in the first place. If you vote in full awareness of your own perception that it means nothing, it cannot rob you of that nothing. In fact, as a meaningless act that you knowingly participate in as such, it empowers you. All of life is at bottom meaningless, but by choosing to continue, your choice gives purpose, the random and fulfilling and beautiful purposefulness of absurdity. There's no point in assigning a symbolic virtue to vanities when you can lovingly embrace the deeply ridiculous, especially when all that's at stake are people's lives and the future of the planet's habitability.



Since the whole thing is a scam, I sort of hope the shotcallers decide to install Obama for another term. All else being equal in injustices, having a mulatto president and a black family in the White House nicely frustrates that very tiny sliver of a demographic in this country I personally enjoy overhearing as they gnash their chicklet-teeth.



But I'm not entirely convinced they will. I think Little Money Boo Boo Chile still has a chance.



I'll probably vote for Stein/Honkala. I prefer to vote for a ticket that has no chance in hell. It's a matter of principle.

[Iamwhomiam]

Let me begin by bidding 8bit a fond farewell. Let's hope it's temporary and that he'll soon return.

While I once shared Nordic's frustration, his "why participate?" attitude, I've now long understood my reasons for voting and why it is so important to me and so many millions to exercise this right, which is indeed a privilege.

I long ago thought that if I didn't vote, I couldn't accumulate bad karma regardless of what transpired during the elected candidate's tenure in office. I now feel inaction, when action is called for, only brings power to dark energies.

As far as disappointment goes, and I've been sorely disappointed with Obama, I actually expected more from Clinton than I had from Obama. And much of my disappointment with Obama has more to do with an intransigent Republican Congress than it does with his own failures.

If voting is an illusion meant to support the false notion that we live in an actual democratic society, then it is my illusion and I will manipulate it to the best advantage possible to effect change for the better.

8bit wrote:
A part of all of ya must be just a tiny bit curious what a Romney dominion would be like, right?

Those of us whom have a greater political awareness and are not of Willard's persuasion really don't have to imagine it; daily we fight against the onslaught from his party, the party that has for the last 30 years been systematically dismantling the programs of the New Deal and other hard fought but won battles for workers' and women's rights.

8bit wrote:I just want to vomit from all the smug smarmy fake liberal "please vote for Obama, it's super important you do...heres a picture of a woman to guilt trip you into doing so"

I would say that this is the most important presidential election of all time. I'd advise everyone to vote for Obama. It's just that important to defeat the selfish who feel no obligation to support the community. I wouldn't want to guilt trip anyone into voting for anyone, but that said, I simply cannot adequately express how very important it is to elect Obama, so please do vote for him and not for Romney. Yes, nordic, it's very important to vote.

Remember, what the US does, it does in your name and for your benefit. Might feel just a bit better participating, rather than just taking the blame for policies you do not support.

I wonder how many of you dissenters have ever attended a local town or city council meeting or have written a letter to some elected official. Maybe the game's rigged because some of you haven't done either. I would say to you that you are out of touch with reality, if you have not had something derogatory or congratulatory to offer your elected officials at any level.

How can anyone effectively represent your views if you choose not to share them with your elected representatives? Uh huh, it's rigged all right.

Wombaticus Rex wrote:
In terms of the total range of political options,... ...it's a vanishingly small sliver of difference between Mitt Romney and Barack Obama.

But I also know most people here could recite the incantation of American Economic Doom -- the very real calculus of "How Am I Going To Feed My Kids" constant panic that one hell of a lot of human beings in this country are living with. We all know Obama will not unveil a new New Deal in his second term, but he does represent a broader and more funded social safety net than Mitt Ryan will. So, it's a tiny sliver, but there are millions of Americans in there.

This "lesser of two evils" shit is always presented as a sheep conformity issue, and I wish you'd realize it can also be a matter of simple empathy.

I agree completely with your comment, Mr.WRex, and it's one of my reasons for voting for Obama.

dada wrote:
There's an Arundhati Roy quote, where she says something like don't waste time on the voting process, just take one second to go vote or not vote or whatever you decide to do, and then get back to the important business of fighting empire

I agree with this, generally. But this is the most important presidential election in our history and because it is I would advise everyone to register however they like, but to be sure to vote for Obama. (yes, it matters that much!)

Dr. Evil, although I idolize Dr. Jill Stein, I cannot in good conscience vote for her. Every green knows she hasn't a chance. There are only about a quarter-million Greens registered nationally. Our situation is far too precarious for me to offer a vote of conscience on one so unelectable.

MayDay, I would encourage you to vote. Please do. The fate of our future is squarely in your hands! ("Here, have a cookie" did make me laugh.)

Lupercal, though others have said so, I'll add my words to theirs: Your remarks to 8bit were unnecessarily harsh. How do you manage having a blog dedicated to peace and justice while coming off so rabidly? You must become what you seek. You must become peaceful and act justly.

Elvis, thank you for this: "I think FourthBase has knocked it out of the park with this."
FourthBase, thank you for this, but please do vote Obama.

compared2What? I believe expressed the situation here as well as it could be presented. (Though I encourage folks to vote for Obama. It's Ryan that really concerns me.)

dada wrote:
I'm so sick of the blame the non voter bit. How come I never see any discussion about how Obama squandered all the good will and momentum he had, and that's why you lesser of two evil voters find yourselves in the mess you're in?

I mean there's not even an attempt to say "we're sorry, we know our guy fucked up, but we really need you."

It doesn't matter anyway, I don't want to get into the psychology of it. Good luck, but you're on your own this time.

As I said, I am one of many who've been disappointed in Obama. You discount too easily the reality of dealing with an obstructionist congress or the reality of a military actively engaged in combat. And generally, too, the reality of the times we're living in brought about by the excesses of a prior and extremely damaging administration. So I'll ask you to please vote, I know Obama's disappointed you, too, and I'm sorry he has, but we really need your vote! The entire world's counting on you!

ninakat wrote:
Secondly, I believe if you vote, you have no right to complain. People like to twist that around – they say, 'If you don't vote, you have no right to complain', but where's the logic in that? If you vote and you elect dishonest, incompetent people into office who screw everything up, you are responsible for what they have done. You caused the problem; you voted them in; you have no right to complain. I, on the other hand, who did not vote, who in fact did not even leave the house on election day, am in no way responsible for what these people have done and have every right to complain about the mess you created that I had nothing to do with.”

Um, ninakat, I think you're a bit confused. Legitimate voting is a contest between two or more people with one winner. And the vote you cast can be determinative of what's to occur in the future, as well as whom is elected. It seems you do not account for those whom may have voted for the better person and yet lost the election.

You discount the impact your not voting may have upon the actual election. Don't for a single moment feel as I once did, that it doesn't matter whether you do or don't vote. It matters immensely.

Suppose you don't vote and the worst possible candidate gets elected. You've done nothing to prevent this from occurring and therefore you share responsibility for their election.

Conversely, had you voted, the better person might be elected rather than the worst. Simply put, your vote counts. Sure, the worst candidate could still win the election, but at least you could feel good about having tried your best to prevent their election and the evil they're sure to foster. Inaction can bring about evil results as surely as wrong action can. Act while you can; it is a rare privilege.

Nordic, this is rather insane reasoning, imo: "We all would have been far better off had George Bush seized the Presidency, called off all elections, and declared himself El Presidente for Life. Because then we would fucking know what we're up against."

We, The People, never have known what the future would bring in any election. Sure, we might have an idea or two about how things will develop under a certain administration, but really, we've never know what we've been up against, sorta. But I imagine we'll get to see your fantasy play out more fully should Romney and Ryan become elected to office. I'd rather that not come to fruition and I'm doing whatever I can legally to prevent their election. I suggest you do the same. Part of the problem or part of the solution? Your choice.

Alchemy, I agree with most you've written here.

Nordic, posting the pictures of the dead children was wrong on so many levels... let's just leave it there. We're adults and I think we understand the consequences of war alway weigh heaviest upon innocents, the women and children. Funny you didn't mention the guy who got us engaged in both. As an American, you are responsible for those dead children just as much as we all are. Yeah, sure, don't vote for Obama. And suddenly the 19k children under 5 who die everyday will be cured of their ills and fed. Why not blame the drone operator or the company that manufactured it? Why not blame yourself? After all, the time you spend here could be better spent writing letters to or visiting your legislators objecting to such acts committed in your name. So, how many letters did you crank out after seeing that horrible photo? None, right? Because it's all so meaningless. Your inaction moots your drama. Seriously.

Alchemy, very well said.

And I agree with justdrew here.

Of course we're the bull, Nordic. Everything born is given a life sentence, some shorter, some longer, some pained beyond belief and some more pleasurable. We all die. Some do indeed die horribly. But it's how you play the game that counts, because death is inevitable. Yes, even while experiencing the pain of a horrible death an effective blow can be struck against the puppet master or as you've framed it, the matador:



with some blows being more effective than others:



Some so effective they silence the matador for weeks on end:



Knowing your love of using disturbing photographs to make your point, allow me to make mine in a similar fashion, again, close up and in your face, so to speak:



Need live action? No problemo:



Stop action? Got it:

So you can sit in the audience and watch the action while the fight for life and death goes on before your eyes, but please remember you're paying the matador's salary. And without you paying the price of admission, there would be no show at all.

Corrected misspelling of 'idolize'

[Nordic]

I would say that this is the most important presidential election of all time. I'd advise everyone to vote for Obama. It's just that important to defeat the selfish who feel no obligation to support the community. I wouldn't want to guilt trip anyone into voting for anyone, but that said, I simply cannot adequately express how very important it is to elect Obama, so please do vote for him and not for Romney. Yes, nordic, it's very important to vote.

Remember, what the US does, it does in your name and for your benefit. Might feel just a bit better participating, rather than just taking the blame for policies you do not support.

I wonder how many of you dissenters have ever attended a local town or city council meeting or have written a letter to some elected official. Maybe the game's rigged because some of you haven't done either. I would say to you that you are out of touch with reality, if you have not had something derogatory or congratulatory to offer your elected officials at any level.

How can anyone effectively represent your views if you choose not to share them with your elected representatives? Uh huh, it's rigged all right.

Iamwhomiam, I like you. But this is bullshit. This is the same crap I see on Facebook every damn day right now.

For one thing. How many times have I heard "this is the most presidential election of all time!!" EVERY DAMN ELECTION OF MY LIFE SO FAR, that's how many times. And I've been voting since 1980.

Second, why would you ever assume that I have never attended a local town or city council meeting or written a letter to some elected official. That's not even a strawman, that's a fucking insult, a presupposition about me that is based in nothing except your own arrogant prejudice. You're smarter than that. You're a better person than that. It's not even worth responding to. Did you ever think that many of us who feel the way I do have written countless letters and attended countless meetings and have been to plenty of protests in the required "protest zone" (usually far away from whatever it is we're protesting)?

And this particular sentence:

"Remember, what the US does, it does in your name and for your benefit. Might feel just a bit better participating, rather than just taking the blame for policies you do not support. "

is just infuriating. Yeah no shit, the US does everything it does IN OUR NAME. Why do you think we're so fucking PISSED OFF? It has made murderers and terrorists out of every single one of us. We are now a terrorist nation.

Yet you say "for your benefit?"

What kind of bizarre thing is that to say? What is the benefit to me of our nation being a terrorist country?

And hey, Jackriddler, while I'm at it, coming from the guy who SO hates to have WORDS PUT IN HIS MOUTH, your putting words in my mouth above so obviously stems from way back when (you've got a long memory) when you bickered and whined at how you thought I had put words in YOUR mouth. So you do it here, in the most DISHONEST way you can possibly contrive. Well fuck you. Asshole.

You didn't even bother to paraphrase me as saying "If you vote FOR OBAMA OR ROMNEY you have committed BABY MURDER just as much as the drone bombers and you deserve the HELLFIRE you will get!", no, you leave out the FOR OBAMA OR ROMNEY part and just go for the VOTING part.

I've always said go ahead and vote if you want, but you might as well do your nails or brush your teeth or, yes, jack off (Jack?) because that's about all the good it will do.

Why is it I've always pictured you looking like this guy, Jack?



Maybe it's the insufferable sanctimony.

[dada]

Very nice well thought out posts, making the case for voting. If I weren't so whatever it is I am (cynical? stupid? not right in the head? Cold hearted bastard? Fill in the blank) you would have convinced me. But not this time. I've got it in my head that I'm trying out this stupid strategy, and that's just the way it's going to be. You need me not to vote. Even if I were going to vote, I wouldn't tell you I am. I want the democrats to be sweating it. I want them to be scared shitless. The Obama administration knows they have you, you have nowhere else to go. Why should they do anything for anyone but their banker friends? Maybe just maybe the threat of non voters might scare them. I see it certainly scares the pants off of you. I say addressing no one in particular.

Risky game I'm playing? Will it backfire on me? I don't know. Guess we'll see.

[Nordic]

If you feel you must vote, vote for anybody BUT Rombama or Obney.

You'll make far more of an impact (if they actually count the damn votes) that way.

[dada]

I don't think Obama is a nice guy. Sorry, I don't. And neither do you. That's why he's the lesser of two evils, and not simply the good choice. I don't think he's well intentioned, but thwarted by the Republicans. Political calculations are all that
matter. There's no reason to throw a bone to the little people at all, the unmonied, unwashed masses of you and I (well, I can't speak for you. Just "I" then) unless someone draws the line somewhere on the left.

[Iamwhomiam]

Well thanks for liking me, Nordic! I like you too!

But that's my opinion and it is insulting to be told my opinion is bullshit. While I haven't said anything quite like that about your opinions, I do think you're wrong to sit this election out. You and I both have to live with the consequence of our actions and our inaction. If your decision not to vote impacted only you, I wouldn't care at all. But it doesn't. It will impact all of us either positively, which I think most unlikely, or negatively, which I think is more probable. If I hadn't felt like this I would not have commented.

And you know, Nordic, I've been voting since '68. Every election that's followed since has been more important than that which preceded it. Maybe that's why you're seeing such similar postings on FB.

Everyone should follow their conscience. You are your own judge. Do whatever you think is best for you, seriously. I wouldn't want it any other way.

You wrote: "For one thing. How many times have I heard "this is the most presidential election of all time!!" EVERY DAMN ELECTION OF MY LIFE SO FAR, that's how many times. And I've been voting since 1980."

Perhaps you haven't been paying attention if you do not realize the truth of this. (how long you been reading RI and you still don't get it?)

Nordic wrote: "Second, why would you ever assume that I have never attended a local town or city council meeting or written a letter to some elected official. That's not even a strawman, that's a fucking insult, a presupposition about me that is based in nothing except your own arrogant prejudice. You're smarter than that. You're a better person than that. It's not even worth responding to. Did you ever think that many of us who feel the way I do have written countless letters and attended countless meetings and have been to plenty of protests in the required "protest zone" (usually far away from whatever it is we're protesting)?"

I do understand you're a bit paranoid, but really... did I anywhere assume any such thing about you? More accurately, I simply pondered a question aloud, so to speak: "I wonder how many of you dissenters have ever attended a local town or city council meeting or have written a letter to some elected official. Maybe the game's rigged because some of you haven't done either. I would say to you that you are out of touch with reality, if you have not had something derogatory or congratulatory to offer your elected officials at any level."

I do think you owe me an apology not only for accusing me of something I was not guilty of, but more so for this line: "That's not even a strawman, that's a fucking insult, a presupposition about me that is based in nothing except your own arrogant prejudice." Arrogant prejudice? Methinks we have here a case of the kettle calling the pot black. I am trying to be a better person though... by voting this November.

Lastly, my Norse friend, you wrote this:

(Iamwhomiam wrote:)
"Remember, what the US does, it does in your name and for your benefit. Might feel just a bit better participating, rather than just taking the blame for policies you do not support."

(Nordic wrote:)
is just infuriating. Yeah no shit, the US does everything it does IN OUR NAME. Why do you think we're so fucking PISSED OFF? It has made murderers and terrorists out of every single one of us. We are now a terrorist nation.

Yet you say "for your benefit?"

What kind of bizarre thing is that to say? What is the benefit to me of our nation being a terrorist country?

If you as an American citizen are suddenly just now realizing that your country is a terrorist nation, you have not been paying attention. If you believe you have not been the beneficiary of our nation's actions you must be ignorant of how high your wages and standard of living is in comparison to others living only a few hundred miles south of you and elsewhere around the world. Their poverty brings to you your comforts and me mine. That is undeniable.

Yeah, sit out the election. It's always best to do when you're a citizen of a terrorist nation. Wouldn't want to rock the boat. Things just might get better. Or terrific.

To wallow in despair and hopelessness because of your self-asserted powerlessness must provide you some false sense of comfort. My mind doesn't allow me such fantasy. I'd rather spend my time empowering others to find their own voice and to use it to effect the change they desire.

Anyway, it's all an illusion. Just ask the Hammer.

[IanEye]

more of this, please.

¡Olé!

*