Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

[justdrew]

I personally do not believe there necessarily has to be a "second or third black op" shooter. Only an early 20 something kid triggered somehow.

What makes it improbable in Lanza's case at least is that it would take considerable skill with a rifle to get off as many rounds (early reports were 300) in the time he was on the loose, under 10 min., with the weapon he's said to have used, a Bushmaster AR-15 rifle, which is a semiatomatic, meaning that the shooter has to aim and pull the trigger once for each shot, not just point and shoot a spray of bulltets:

it still fires very quickly, you could expend a 30 round clip in 30 seconds or less, change clip in 10 seconds probably more like 5. the targets likely grouped themselves. but you know, IANAMS I think it's hard to believe anyone actually finds it hard to believe it could be done by one shooter. look at videos of people firing these if you're that curious.

I really don't see any good reason to allow semi-automatic rifles, particularly ones designed to wound soldiers on a battlefield in private hands. MAYBE if we did disarm, and end the fantasy of armed rebellion as the final plan b of every fucking political group that comes along, we would actually get serious about politics and actually participate and fix some shit.

[lupercal]

More on the Sandy Hook gun:

Two handguns and a rifle were recovered at the scene of the massacre, but reports have indicated that Lanza used the .223 semi-automatic rifle to shoot most, if not all, of his victims, including his mother, Nancy Lanza, to whom the gun was apparently registered. On Saturday, Connecticut’s chief medical examiner, H. Wayne Carver II, said that each of the victims had received multiple gunshot wounds.

“My sensibilities may not be the average man, but this probably is the worst I have seen or the worst that I know of any of my colleagues having seen,” Carver told reporters.

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.c ... _lanza.php

* Semi-automatic = one squeeze of the trigger per bullet.

* Multiple gunshot wounds = multiple squeezes of the trigger.

* 300 rounds in under ten minutes = at least 30 rounds per minute = at least one shot every two seconds.

Anyone still think the ghostly if not invisible Adam Lanza pulled off this hit?

[8bitagent]

What makes it improbable in Lanza's case at least is that it would take considerable skill with a rifle to get off as many rounds (early reports were 300) in the time he was on the loose, under 10 min., with the weapon he's said to have used, a Bushmaster AR-15 rifle, which is a semiatomatic, meaning that the shooter has to aim and pull the trigger once for each shot, not just point and shoot a spray of bulltets:

So while it sounds easy enough in the abstract, in reality, using the gun he's supposed to have used, it would have taken a lot of skill and practice, not to mention steely determination and physical strength, and that rules out Lanza as a shooter.

You may be right. I know nothing about firearms. But in the article I quote, this also struck me:

At gunpoint, he ordered the suspect to put up his hands and get on the ground, where he handcuffed him. Holmes – dripping with sweat, his pupils wildly dilated, reeking of body odor – did not display “normal emotional responses” and did not resist, he said.

The officers asked him if he was alone and Holmes responded with a strange smile, “like a smirk,” Officer Justin Grizzle testified.

Again, reminds me of Loughner. Now, for the longest time I just thought Sirhan was CIA programmed til I discovered of course all the physical/audio/eye witness evidence of a second shooter. And I recall a few witnesses in the DC Beltway case of guys in buzz cuts speeding off in white vans. Whether "black ops" would be spotters or actually involved, Im not sure. But the Aurora Batman case and Sandy Hook, even Loughner, all seem...oddly linked.

[justdrew]

300 rounds was speculation in the heat of the moment, I don't think that's been verified he fired that many, perhaps he BROUGHT that many. Actually I think 300 rounds in 10 min might overheat this type of weapon, which would at least cause it to jam.

[lupercal]

it still fires very quickly, you could expend a 30 round clip in 30 seconds or less, change clip in 10 seconds probably more like 5. the targets likely grouped themselves. but you know, IANAMS I think it's hard to believe anyone actually finds it hard to believe it could be done by one shooter. look at videos of people firing these if you're that curious.

Drew I don't find it hard to believe, I find it impossible. With lots of practice and training, sure, but Lanza was not in the military and there's been no evidence brought forward of any actual weapsns training apart from some very dubious hearsay.

I gather IANAMS means I am not a something or other? Well, I've fired a few guns, rifles and pistols, and it's utterly impossible to see how Adam Lanza could have committed this crime, but easy to imagine one or two shooters with police or military special forces training doing it, and DHS has militarized a lot of police since 2001.

[Elvis]

I personally do not believe there necessarily has to be a "second or third black op" shooter. Only an early 20 something kid triggered somehow.

What makes it improbable in Lanza's case at least is that it would take considerable skill with a rifle to get off as many rounds (early reports were 300) in the time he was on the loose, under 10 min., with the weapon he's said to have used, a Bushmaster AR-15 rifle, which is a semiatomatic, meaning that the shooter has to aim and pull the trigger once for each shot, not just point and shoot a spray of bulltets:

I'm guessing you've never fired an AR-15. I've emptied 30-round mags in much less than 45 seconds. The main concern with fast firing, as I recall (it was 30 years ago), is the barrel getting too hot. Also, the AR-15 doesn't kick much---big cartridge, small bullet---it's pretty easy to stay on target while blasting away (not re-aiming each shot). On my first day shooting an AR-15, I shot a grouse out of the sky with it, landing at least four hits. I have no formal firearms training.

Lanza sounds like he had a lot more experience with an AR-15 than I, if he did go to the range much with his mother. 300 rounds in ten minutes (600 seconds) averages one round every two seconds, not at all improbable. I'm also guessing that Mrs. Lanza's Bushmaster had some kind of recoil compensator, further reducing muzzle rise for faster recovery time, which is already pretty minimal with an AR-15.

I just saw Justdrew's post about this, and I'll add that magazines can be changed in much less than five seconds, if you practice a few times.

Hope that helps.

[lupercal]

300 rounds was speculation in the heat of the moment, I don't think that's been verified he fired that many, perhaps he BROUGHT that many.

Well I heard that figure from several sources, with no retractions, and if there really were 26 victims with multiple gunshot wounds, 26 x 10 = 260 so it makes sense, no?

Actually I think 300 rounds in 10 min might overheat this type of weapon, which would at least cause it to jam.

I've read that the male teacher who first called 911 reported seeing two shooters running toward the gym.

[justdrew]

[lupercal]

I'm guessing you've never fired an AR-15. I've emptied 30-round mags in much less than 45 seconds. The main concern with fast firing, as I recall (it was 30 years ago), is the barrel getting too hot. Also, the AR-15 doesn't kick much---big cartridge, small bullet---it's pretty easy to stay on target while blasting away (not re-aiming each shot). On my first day shooting an AR-15, I shot a grouse out of the sky with it, landing at least four hits. I have no formal firearms training.

Lanza sounds like he had a lot more experience with an AR-15 than I, if he did go to the range much with his mother.

That was one of those early factoids that was quietly retired. As I recall it was later reported that investigators couldn't actually find anyone who had ever seen Lanza at a local firing range.

[Elvis]

That's what I'm talkiin' about.
And I had to laugh---that's exactly what we did, fire into a pond to kick up fountains of spray. (Quite fun, really.)

[lupercal]

You may be right. I know nothing about firearms. But in the article I quote, this also struck me:

At gunpoint, he ordered the suspect to put up his hands and get on the ground, where he handcuffed him. Holmes – dripping with sweat, his pupils wildly dilated, reeking of body odor – did not display “normal emotional responses” and did not resist, he said.

The officers asked him if he was alone and Holmes responded with a strange smile, “like a smirk,” Officer Justin Grizzle testified.

8bit if you keep mixing up Holmes and Lanza we're going to be here all night . . .

[barracuda]

First time shooter, a little girl behind a Bushmaster:



Gimme a break. Cops are now saying about 150 rounds were fired by Lanza.

[compared2what?]

And as long as nobody had any power and everybody had autonomy, life would then be practically a utopia relative to what it actually is, even in a world filled with nothing but lupercals on every continent, from coast to coast, as far as the eye could see.

It's quite a cheering thought, really. How about that.

bully.

on this board we each have autonomy, and ostensibly few ppl have any power, Lupercal not among them. So... what's your problem then? As in, what's the reason for your provocative post, and why is it that you are freer to post irrelevant hostile bullshit than, say, I am?

EDIT ugh I want to delete this but in case you've seen it I won't. I'll just add: forget it. I lost my head. I don't care about the answer.

It's okay. I don't think I am freer to post irrelevant hostile bullshit than you are. But if I am, I don't want to be. And if I do it more than I know, I want to be called out for it.

FWIW, I was trying to say something affectionate about lupercal. And although I did realize that might not be clear, I figured that it wouldn't then make enough sense to be objectionable if it wasn't. That still seems right to me. But I'm certainly willing to be wrong. More than willing. Eager.

[lupercal]

^ thanks C2W I thought that might be the case but I couldn't pass up a seasonal allusion.

barracuda: cute kid. But she's probably bigger than Lanza and she's firing out on a range, not in an unfamiliar school, and she's not carrying 3 guns, 300 rounds of ammo, jungle fatigues and a mask.

p.s. 150 rounds wouldn't be enough to deliver all the wounds coroner Carver and others marveled at and in any case I haven't read that figure and you haven't given a link.

[barracuda]

barracuda: cute kid. But she's probably bigger than Lanza

Are you calling her fat?? No way she's over 110.

and she's firing out on a range, not in an unfamiliar school,

Not unfamiliar. Lanza attended the school. Posted upthread. You're not reading the thread.

and she's not carrying 3 guns, 300 rounds of ammo, jungle fatigues and a mask

An AR-15 weighs eight pounds, bro. 30 round mags weigh less than a pound each. Are you saying Lanza couldn't lift twenty-five pounds of gear?

p.s. 150 rounds wouldn't be enough to deliver all the wounds coroner Carver and others marveled at

Why not? Carver said one (1) victim had eleven (11) wounds. He did not say they ALL did. He could have easily caused all the damage inflicted with 1/2 that many rounds.

and in any case I haven't read that figure and you haven't given a link.

Here's your link: viewtopic.php?p=488197#p488197

Try to follow along.