How Bad Is Global Warming?

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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby compared2what? » Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:14 am

Ben D wrote:
compared2what? wrote:There are so many specifics in the public record regarding which billionaires use which non-profits to persuade you that global warming either isn't happening or isn't anthropogenic that the accounts of them are practically only a few specificity degrees away from having a "Ben D; opinion-influencing" line item under "Expenditures." Just practically, though. To be fair.

There is no one that I am aware of that believes that AGW skeptical science gets more funding then the AGW team science, by a very large factor.


Yeah. Scientific research requires funds. So pretty much all of it is funded. Without specifics, that doesn't mean much. And neither do the comparative amounts spent on "skeptical science" versus the regular kind.

Because there's plainly a flat-out conspiracy by a small number of billionaires behind the funding of virtually all the "skeptical science."

Whereas the regular kind is just funded as virtually all science regularly is.

Key distinction.

Besides which, obviously the net sum of all funding from all combined sources other than a small conspiratorial group of billionaires is obviously always going to be greater by a very large factor than whatever the billionaires spend. Come on.

But regardless of whether you think otherwise, in the end it is not going to be the amount of funding, or the propaganda that persuades the world that global warming is or isn't caused by humans, but science! Watch this space....


Sure. Can't wait.
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby Ben D » Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:35 am

compared2what? wrote:
Ben D wrote:Googling "Skeptic admits global warming" doesn't help your case unless it shows that he was not a believer in CO2 AGW at the time preceding this event in August 2012 when he is supposed to change his stated position on anthropogenic cause of CO2 global warming as recorded in December 17, 2003 MIT Technology Review.

http://www.technologyreview.com/news/402357/medieval-global-warming/page/2/

Now unless you can find some persuasive evidence of him recanting this position, the case is closed so far as any reasonable person is concerned.


Unless he or she is a reasonable person whose reading comprehension skills are sufficiently robust not to be compromised when primed by exposure to a cherry-picked paragraph.

Because that reasonable person would have no trouble at all seeing that the position he takes there on an anthropogenic cause of CO2 global warming is that it's an open and unsettled question. Because he says so. Quite plainly. And repeatedly, too. It's the sole point of just about every line he writes, in one way or another.


Ok, there is this..."Let me be clear. My own reading of the literature and study of paleoclimate suggests strongly that carbon dioxide from burning of fossil fuels will prove to be the greatest pollutant of human history. It is likely to have severe and detrimental effects on global climate."

So now you may point out all those other non cherry-picked paragraphs where he repeatedly takes the position that CO2 may not be the cause of global warming?
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby Sounder » Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:54 am

That billionare headline was funny in a pathetic sort of way. Talk about a simple trigger. And the riggies jump. What a hoot.

Yes, yes, lets look at how it is this narrative was created and how it is maintained.

But I dare say, the following will not likely serve as evidence for those that already hold strong ‘beliefs’ on this matter.

That is our problem.

So unless and until you can change my mind about the relevance of the following in respect to its impact on the larger context, I will not cede ground to the dogmas of a new goddammed church. Get it?

An stop calling my people tards.


http://www.theforgottenstreet.com/Enron ... Kyoto.html

Ken Ring claims that the Kyoto Protocol to bring global management of climate change was cooked up behind closed doors at Enron as a way to cripple the coal industry and steer more industries toward natural gas, of which Enron was the United States’ biggest producer.

Two decades ago, Enron owned and operated a network of natural gas pipelines and had become a leading commodity trader buying and selling contracts and their derivatives to deliver natural gas and electricity.

Because the 1990 Clean Air Act amendments placed caps on how much pollution a fossil fuel plant could emit, Enron helped create a market for EPA’s sulphur dioxide cap-and-trade program, the forerunner of today’s carbon offset scam.

As Enron’s stock shot up, the company next turned to creating a cap-and-trade program for carbon dioxide. The only problem was that carbon dioxide is not a pollutant (despite what the senile members of the Supreme Court may think). As a result, EPA had no authority to cap CO2 emissions.

With the advent of the Clinton administration in 1993, Vice President Al Gore set out to create an international regulatory system that would manage carbon dioxide. Enron immediately began to lobby Congress and the administration to give the EPA regulatory authority over CO2.

In addition, Enron began to cultivate new friends in the environmental community. From 1994 to 1996, the Enron Foundation gave nearly $1 million to the Nature Conservancy, whose Climate Change Project promoted global warming theories. Another $1.5 million was donated to other groups advocating international controls to curb global warming, including Greenpeace.

In 1997, Enron set about to promote an international treaty to impose cuts in CO2 emissions while allowing emission rights trading. Such an agreement would produce a gigantic windfall for Enron because it would boost the usage of natural gas at the expense of coal and it would help Enron’s growing commodity trading business.

As the push for a treaty gained more support around the world, Enron CEO Ken Lay and other business leaders wrote to President Bill Clinton on September 1, 1998, asking him to create a bipartisan blue ribbon commission that would essentially shut off the scientific debate on global warming and discredit those scientists who opposed the treaty and did not support the global warming theory.

Simultaneously, Enron commissioned an internal study of global warming science, only to find the results did not support the theory. In conclusion, the report noted, “The very real possibility is that the great climate alarm could be a false alarm. The anthropogenic warming could well be less than thought and favorably distributed.”

A primary consultant for that study was NASA scientist James Hansen, the very same scientist who now castigates the Bush administration for its stance on Kyoto and who trashes scientists who dispute global warming as being in the hip pocket of big business. That certainly did not keep Mr. Hansen from cashing Enron’s check.

Ring’s investigation, as reported in Investigate magazine, notes that “…coal-burning utilities would have had to pay billions for permits because they emit more CO2 than do natural gas facilities. That would have encouraged closing coal plants in favor of natural gas or other kinds of power plants, driving up prices for those alternatives. Enron, along with other key energy companies in the so-called Clean Power Group – El Paso Corp., NiSource, Trigen Energy, and Calpine – would make money both coming and going from selling permits and then their own energy at higher prices.”

Confirmation of Ring’s story is found in a new book, The Politically Incorrect Guide to Global Warming and Environmentalism, written by Christopher C. Horner, senior fellow at the Competitive Enterprise Institute. Mr. Horner provides extensive documentation of Enron’s involvement behind the scenes with environmentalists (including Theresa Heinz), Bill Clinton, Al Gore and other greed-driven businesses.




http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/04/ ... ation.html
While nuclear industry lobbying is widespread and aggressive, its impact is not always readily apparent. Take, for example, the Lieberman-Warner climate change bill, which the Senate is expected to debate this summer. The bill—also known as S.2191, or America’s Climate Security Act—does not mention the word “nuclear” once in its 200-plus pages. Yet an aide to Senator Joe Lieberman called the measure “the most historic incentive for nuclear in the history of the United States,” according to Environment & Energy Daily.
One section of the Lieberman-Warner bill says that “25 percent of all the funds deposited into a new climate change worker training fund shall be reserved for zero and low-emitting carbon energy that has a rated capacity of at least 750 megawatts of power,” notes Tyson Slocum, the research director of Public Citizen’s energy program. “That’s a huge threshold, so that’s going to exclude wind and solar right off the bat. . . . The only thing that could possibly meet that target would be nuclear power.” Similar language in another section of the bill effectively reserves another half a trillion dollars for the nuclear industry, according to Slocum.

“It’s hard to imagine an industry that’s more brazen in its quest for ever-larger federal subsidies,” says Environment America’s Anna Aurilio. “They already get their waste completely taken care of, they already get a guaranteed cap on liability in case of an accident. . . . Any problem that could happen with the nuclear industry, the U.S. taxpayer is ultimately going to have to pick up. And yet, they keep coming back to Congress for more and more and more.”
Diane Farsetta is the Center for Media and Democracy’s senior researcher.


http://www.activistpost.com/2012/06/glo ... royal.html

Wednesday, June 20, 2012
Globalists Switching Gears: Royal Society Lecturer Says CO2 Not Affecting Earth’s Temperature

Susanne Posel, Contributor
Activist Post

Fritz Vahrenholt, a German green energy investor, says he has reassessed his position on man-made climate change.

Vahrenholt has been a professor in the Department of Chemistry at the University of Hamburg since 2009. He served as a senator for the environment in Hamburg, Germany between 1991 and 1997, and was a member of the “sustainability advisory board” to chancellor Schröder and Merkel in 2001 to 2007.

Speaking at the 3rd Global Warming Policy Foundation Annual Lecture at the Royal Society in London, Vahrenholt was representing RWE Innogy, one of Europe’s largest renewable energy corporations.

Vahrenholt, who reviewed the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) most recent report on renewable energy, noticed that there was an obvious lack of scientific data to support their assertions. A prominent member of Greenpeace, a UN propaganda arm disguised as a proponent of environmental concern, edited the final version of the IPCC’s report. The IPCC’s report, according to Vahrenholt, is littered with falsities and a complete disregard for natural factors that would be considered in a fluctuating climate such as Earth.


Also please note;

As Paul Feyerabend writes in Against Method at the end of chapter three. (Great book, the footnotes alone make reading this book worth the effort.)
Mills views and Bohr’s procedure are not only an expression of their liberal attitude; they also reflect their conviction that a pluralism of ideas and forms of life is an essential part of any rational inquiry concerning the nature of things.

Or to speak more generally: Unanimity of opinion may be fitting for a rigid church, for the frightened or greedy victims of some (ancient or modern) myth, or for the weak and willing followers of some tyrant. Variety of opinion is necessary for objective knowledge. And a method that encourages variety is also the only method that is compatible with a humanitarian outlook. (To the extent to which the consistency condition delimits variety, it contains a theological element which lies, of course, in the worship of ‘facts’ so characteristic of nearly all empiricism.)
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby Iamwhomiam » Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:49 pm

Sounder wrote:
So unless and until you can change my mind about the relevance of the following in respect to its impact on the larger context, I will not cede ground to the dogmas of a new goddammed church. Get it?
<snip>
But I dare say, the following will not likely serve as evidence for those that already hold strong ‘beliefs’ on this matter.
That is our problem.


I don't think anyone really cares which dogma you adhere to blindly.

But isn't it wonderful that James Hansen continued his research to discover his doubting was unwarranted.
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby DrEvil » Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:44 pm

Let's see....

Ken Ring: Self taught weather forecaster, mathematician and magician. Claims to be able to accurately predict earthquakes and weather based on the lunar cycle.

Fritz Vahrenholt: A chemist. Used to work for Shell, and (as usual from these people) full of shit.
http://www.skepticalscience.com/fritz-v ... hange.html

Seriously - how hard is it to come up with a skeptic who:

a) Knows what the hell he/she is talking about.
b) Isn't lying for profit.
c) Actually is an expert in an area relevant to the discussion.

@Sounder: You don't need a new church. You're obviously perfectly comfortable in the one you're attending.
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby Sounder » Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:11 pm

@Sounder: You don't need a new church. You're obviously perfectly comfortable in the one you're attending.


Thanks Dr. Evil, but I don't do the church thing. That is the point.

At any rate, as per usual you use attacks, on an admitted dogy messenger, rather than dealing with the point at issue.

To wit; Some very large players are happy to roll with this ball because it adds an extra layer of costs to their product, that the 'players' then get to divvy up.

Given that these same and/or similar people are perpetrating so many negative things in this world, do you really think in this one case, they are being humanitarians?

Until you can deal with the substance of the issue, your fists will be swinging at air.
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby Nordic » Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:54 pm

What is lost in this stupid fucking argument is that the burning of fossil fuels, and specifically the mining of them, is destroying the air, land, and water of our little bio-spaceship.

Is there anybody on this board who thinks that the tar sands is a good idea?

I didn't think so.

As far as fossil fuels go, we've eaten all the meat, and are now sucking the marrow from the bones of Mother Earth.

That is a bad bad thing regardless of whether or not it will cause coastal flooding.
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby wintler2 » Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:04 pm

Sounder wrote: as per usual you use attacks, on an admitted dogy messenger, rather than dealing with the point at issue.

The point at issue is your dodgy messengers, you tard. You can't decide whether its the Sun, allpowerful NWO communists, or Exxon thats responsible for warming - are these all the same thing to you?!! Anything other than take any responsibilty yourself seems your game.


Meanwhile, outside the special school sandpit...
Image
Five-Year Average Global Temperature Anomalies from 1881 to 2009
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Postby wintler2 » Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:20 pm

AGW deniers are the 'deadbeat dads' of science - they never show up, never deliver the goods, and always run from responsibility.
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby DrEvil » Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:15 pm

Thanks Wintler, that was exactly my point. And yes Sounder - you are in a church. The Church of Denial in the Face of Overwhelming Evidence.
When the only way you can make something even remotely resembling a coherent argument is by cherry picking, quoting out of context or relying on dodgy people who aren't experts in the relevant field, then maybe, just maybe it is time to reconsider your arguments.
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Breaking News ~ Bendy was Right!!!

Postby Iamwhomiam » Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:22 pm

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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby compared2what? » Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:37 pm

Ben D wrote:
compared2what? wrote:
Ben D wrote:Googling "Skeptic admits global warming" doesn't help your case unless it shows that he was not a believer in CO2 AGW at the time preceding this event in August 2012 when he is supposed to change his stated position on anthropogenic cause of CO2 global warming as recorded in December 17, 2003 MIT Technology Review.

http://www.technologyreview.com/news/402357/medieval-global-warming/page/2/

Now unless you can find some persuasive evidence of him recanting this position, the case is closed so far as any reasonable person is concerned.


Unless he or she is a reasonable person whose reading comprehension skills are sufficiently robust not to be compromised when primed by exposure to a cherry-picked paragraph.

Because that reasonable person would have no trouble at all seeing that the position he takes there on an anthropogenic cause of CO2 global warming is that it's an open and unsettled question. Because he says so. Quite plainly. And repeatedly, too. It's the sole point of just about every line he writes, in one way or another.


Ok, there is this..."Let me be clear. My own reading of the literature and study of paleoclimate suggests strongly that carbon dioxide from burning of fossil fuels will prove to be the greatest pollutant of human history. It is likely to have severe and detrimental effects on global climate."

So now you may point out all those other non cherry-picked paragraphs where he repeatedly takes the position that CO2 may not be the cause of global warming?


i was kind of afraid that would be the response. And I'm sorry to say that if you've read it and you don't see them already, the answer to that is probably no.

Not ideal. But it is what it is. And so there you have it.

Cheers, honey. You know I always enjoy our chats, I hope.
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby Ben D » Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:33 pm

Cheers C2W, all the best... :lovehearts:
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby Sounder » Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:16 pm

The point at issue is your dodgy messengers, you tard. :eeyaa :eeyaa You can't decide whether its the Sun, allpowerful NWO communists, or Exxon thats responsible for warming - are these all the same thing to you?!! Anything other than take any responsibility yourself seems your game.


I find it interesting that you suggest that I hold to my views as a denial of personal responsibility strategy. Not only do think that we do need to take personal responsibility, but I suggest a specific way to take that responsibility. Here it is again if you missed it the first time.

OK, my basic theme lo these past seven years has been to assert; The power elite has learned through long experience that by imposing double binds, usually in the form of some variation of; ‘I am God, -you shut the fuck up’, will result in fractured psyches where most of our energy is spent trying to heal a split, that is a product of the pretzel logic required to live with the imposed double bind. Many then think it’s not worth it to create a conscious model that rearranges our unconscious drivers because exposure of our part in this play is too embarrassing to bear.

So my hypothesis is not mystic or even that complicated. It is simply to say; the power elite maintain their position by cultivating fractured psyches among the general population and conversely, by finding ways to integrate the different layers of our psyches, we do our proper and obligatory part to undermine false power and to re-place that power to where it belongs, which is the individual psyche.

Healthy now because it is willing to embrace the shadow.


Feel free to challenge this or call bullshit on it, but it's not accurate to say that I am avoiding responsibility. We have different ideas about what it is to be responsible, that's all.

There is no need or attempt here to convince you of anything. But others readers might see some sense in my next attempt to explain my position.

Most people want to do good and be good. The traditional framework for realizing this aspiration is religion. Many religious types do very good works, yet at the same time because religion is dogmatic in its tendencies it tends to inhibit our connection with the divine by acting as a mediator rather than as a facilitator. We learn time and again how religion repackages people’s good intentions into power and profit for its leaders.

It’s really a great gig; you get your victims to do your dirty work for you killing ‘heretics’.
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby wintler2 » Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:25 am

Sounder wrote:Feel free to challenge this or call bullshit on it, but it's not accurate to say that I am avoiding responsibility. We have different ideas about what it is to be responsible, that's all.

..by finding ways to integrate the different layers of our psyches, we do our proper and obligatory part to undermine false power..


Thanks for the motherhood statement, but WTF has that to do with anthropogenic global warming?

Your defence of your behaviour is so far off topic as to be a worry - take your banal philosophical crusade to a thread that gives a shit.
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