David Icke: Methods Of A Madman

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Re: David Icke: Methods Of A Madman

Postby compared2what? » Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:49 pm

Canadian_watcher » Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:01 pm wrote: An example would be studies conducted by the institute of heart math. I'm guessing mainstream science doesn't like their stuff, but I might be wrong.


At a glance, it looks like some of it has been published by places like the American Journal of Cardiology but most of it has been published by places with narrower and/or more alternative orientations. But there's a lot of it. And since those are all peer-reviewed, indexed journals, listed on PubMed alongside everything else and on the same terms, I wouldn't say mainstream science is discriminating against it. I mean, presumably, it's subject to criticism on scientific grounds. But so is all science. (FWIW, they also appear to be well-liked by the MSM, corporations, and the military.)



I didn't go looking for it, but since there was a JREF review on the first page of search results and it struck me as oddly not scathing, here it is:

Recently a friend of the JREF emailed us with a question about a product being sold by a non-profit corporation based in Boulder Creek, California. The non-profit’s name is The Institute of HeartMath, and by chance I actually worked with this company a few years back when I was working with a Chinese software developer in Beijing, China. I have first-hand experience with the folks at HeartMath and let me start by saying that they are not charlatans in my opinion. These people really believe in their mission and what they call the ‘science’ behind it. Unfortunately, during my time with them it didn’t appear that critical thinking is a core component of their philosophy and the science isn't exactly something worth staking your life on. That said, the message from HeartMath is certainly a positive one.

A Little Background on HeartMath

The founder of HeartMath is a guy by the name of Doc Childre (who is not a doctor) and his philosophy is basically that the heart is at the center of the human experience and the heart as an organ is much more interactive and important in our lives than just being a muscle that pumps blood around our bodies. He founded The Institute of HeartMath (IHM) in 1991 and as his website says, IMH’s HeartMath System “entails practical, heart-based tools and technologies that people of all ages and walks of life can use to enhance health, performance and well-being. “ Frankly I’m not sure why a ‘heart-based’ tool would help improve performance or enhance overall health.



My Relationship with HeartMath

During my brief interaction with HeartMath the basic premise of their technology revolved around something called Heart Rate Variability (HRV). HRV, in fact, is a real scientifically researched phenomenon that measures the variability in the R portion of the QRST wave of a typical heartbeat. Basically, over time, even with a regular heartbeat there is variability between the beats. The more variability, the healthier the heart (this is a very boiled-down view of this). Reduced HRV has been shown to be a predictor of death after heart attacks, so doctors know to monitor patients with less HRV more carefully when they are recovering from MI (Myocardial Infarction) or open heart surgery.

So far, so good, but what HeartMath has done has taken the concept of HRV and said that it ties into emotional health in a way that can affect performance, happiness, and stress in a profound way. When I visited HeartMath’s offices in Boulder Creek (it’s actually a campus with housing) I had their researcher, Rollin McCraty, PhD, give myself and a colleague a presentation on the HRV and HeartMath’s derivative state of well-being called ‘Coherence’. During this presentation McCraty gave an overview of HRV and showed some psychological testing materials and videos (such as the famous Gorilla/Basketball video) and told us about the research he was doing into the heart as a very special organ that regulates our mental health and well-being far beyond what current science understands. I started to feel uncomfortable when McCraty showed us data that suggested the heart (as an organ) was capable of pre-cognition. I talked with my colleague after the presentation and pointed out to him that the research at HeartMath appeared to have the tail wagging the dog, which is to say that they were not doing research to see what the result was, they were starting with a result and trying to conduct research to prove the result they already believed in, which is that the heart is an organ that has powers beyond anything we can measure with modern technology.

HeartMath’s Product

The product that caught our attention is one that is similar to a HeartMath product I have in my office which is basically a heart rate variability monitor. The software that comes with the device graphs HRV in such a way that it is displayed on the screen. IHM claims that a person can relieve stress and center their heart and mind in such a way that their HRV will achieve what they call ‘Coherence’. This produces a wave on the screen that looks a lot like a sine wave. There are relaxation techniques that are supposed to allow you to achieve this coherence, IMH claims will improve your mental abilities, performance, mental acuity, and help you to get in touch with your heart. Unfortunately it didn’t take long for us to figure out that a ‘coherence’ pattern could be achieved very easily by simply doing regular deep breathing, thus producing a sine-wave type pattern that in my estimation is produced simply by what’s called sinus arrhythmia (a normal subtle change in the heart rate due to the pressure change in the chest while breathing).

This product, called the emWave Personal Stress Reliever sells for $199 and ostensibly tells you when your HRV achieves a level of coherence. The problem I see with this product is that there’s no scientific consensus that ‘coherence’ does anything useful or that achieving it through this product has any beneficial effect at all. In my experience those who used the product and claimed success fell well within the realm of the placebo effect. For $199, I would suggest that folks simply practice deep breathing relaxation and save the money, but ultimately you should have a look at the HeartMath website and decide for yourself. I for one am deeply concerned about the reality of such products. The basic premise and mission of IHM seems to be altruistic and positive in that they want people to be emotionally in touch, happy, and content, but the science behind their products seems suspect.

When I attended a HeartMath educational session at a University in the Bay Area run by one of their Cardiologists, I put a few questions to the Cardiologist about the premise behind the IHM’s technology. I said “as an MD, a man of science, how can you agree with the concept that the heart is an organ that can sense its surroundings and possibly even engage in precognition?” His answer to me was “There are so many things in science we haven’t learned yet, it’s just a matter of time for science to catch up to this.”

Certainly when one looks at HeartMath’s Scientific Advisory Board, it’s impressive. I’m not sure how all these MD’s can get on board with HeartMath’s premise, but maybe since I was at HeartMath’s campus (over 5 years ago) they have backed off of some of the more unusual claims they have about the heart. I would suggest that anyone looking into their products to be highly skeptical.


Weird.

(LINK.)
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Re: David Icke: Methods Of A Madman

Postby justdrew » Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:55 pm

well, there's what science "knows" and what any given doctor knows. A friend has a serious auto-inflammatory disease but none of his doctors have ever even suggested avoiding wheat for awhile to see what happens. :roll:
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Re: David Icke: Methods Of A Madman

Postby barracuda » Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:56 pm

HeartMath is basically new age marketed biofeedback techniques, a technology which has a history of extensive testing by teh establishment.
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Re: David Icke: Methods Of A Madman

Postby DrEvil » Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:05 pm

tapitsbo » Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:48 am wrote:like why is there so little info about underwater ruins in this age of advanced sensors etc?


Mostly because it's insanely expensive and time consuming to map the seabed.
It isn't mapped in detail unless there's an extremely good reason to do so, usually involving oil or communications.

The kind of mapping data you see on google earth is useless. The resolution of the data is too low to show any details. The occasional grid-like structure or straight line is just badly processed sonar data.
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Re: David Icke: Methods Of A Madman

Postby justdrew » Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:08 pm

tapitsbo » 03 Jul 2013 17:42 wrote:i'd be interested in this board's perspective on the alleged coverup of advanced technology in ancient times

very difficult to know what to believe in this area!


vimanas? ancient nuclear explosions? the copper plate books supposedly found somewhere in south/central America?

Any other examples?

why the cover up? To placate the Deros of course! :shrug:


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Re: David Icke: Methods Of A Madman

Postby tapitsbo » Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:19 pm

even the existence of some of the supposed underwater cities seems hard to verify... i guess i'm looking for evidence of a coverup in that regard since people talk about it as a suppressed area of knowledge
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Re: David Icke: Methods Of A Madman

Postby Canadian_watcher » Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:21 pm

here's whatshisface Randi's take on HearthMath (I've chopped the part at the beginning where he says he worked with them a while back and also thinks they're swell people)

When I attended a HeartMath educational session at a University in the Bay Area run by one of their Cardiologists, I put a few questions to the Cardiologist about the premise behind the IHM’s technology. I said “as an MD, a man of science, how can you agree with the concept that the heart is an organ that can sense its surroundings and possibly even engage in precognition?” His answer to me was “There are so many things in science we haven’t learned yet, it’s just a matter of time for science to catch up to this.”

Certainly when one looks at HeartMath’s Scientific Advisory Board, it’s impressive. I’m not sure how all these MD’s can get on board with HeartMath’s premise, but maybe since I was at HeartMath’s campus (over 5 years ago) they have backed off of some of the more unusual claims they have about the heart. I would suggest that anyone looking into their products to be highly skeptical.


So he didn't like the answer (to his stupid question) and then he 'can't understand why all these MDs are on board' but since he's so smart and seasoned we'd all better be highly skeptical? is that what passes for intelligent review (aka skepticism) these days?
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Re: David Icke: Methods Of A Madman

Postby Canadian_watcher » Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:30 pm

ancient tech / writings or depictions of ancient tech:

Baghdad Battery
ANTIKYTHERA MECHANISM
the Coso Artefact
Greek Fire
Abydos
the Vimanas

so much more. We might indeed live in interesting times, but no doubt the history we are taught is nothing compared to the history we are taught to ignore.
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Re: David Icke: Methods Of A Madman

Postby Canadian_watcher » Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:45 pm

I'm sorry, but THIS is the guy whose opinion we are putting up on some sort of pedestal>>>>

James Randi is a Canadian-American stage magician and scientific skeptic best known for his challenges to paranormal claims and pseudoscience. Randi is the founder of the James Randi Educational Foundation




Oh man. I feel better and worse at the same time.
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Re: David Icke: Methods Of A Madman

Postby Canadian_watcher » Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:49 pm

justdrew » Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:29 pm wrote:while it's true that science theories are updated as knowledge grows, and some "opinions" promoted with a scientific basis are later proven false and abandoned (man will never fly), there is ALSO a great big ol' track record of people stating shit with no basis whatsoever and it never being fully abandoned.

Much of what Icke's promulgating is just a modern rewrite of a strain of gnosticism. but I would point out that another aspect of the big G, is "show me" - belief not based on "faith" but on KNOWING. Icke provides no path to knowledge, only a divergent faith.


Faith in oneself is not a faith capital F is it? Are we that far gone down the path to communism (at least in thought?) that we can't be encouraged to think for ourselves without it being construed as a violent evil against the quote greater good unquote?

and um.. man does fly.
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Re: David Icke: Methods Of A Madman

Postby compared2what? » Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:07 pm

Canadian_watcher » Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:21 pm wrote:here's whatshisface Randi's take on HearthMath


It's not by Randi. It was just on JREF.

(I've chopped the part at the beginning where he says he worked with them a while back and also thinks they're swell people)


So you have.

Why?

When I attended a HeartMath educational session at a University in the Bay Area run by one of their Cardiologists, I put a few questions to the Cardiologist about the premise behind the IHM’s technology. I said “as an MD, a man of science, how can you agree with the concept that the heart is an organ that can sense its surroundings and possibly even engage in precognition?” His answer to me was “There are so many things in science we haven’t learned yet, it’s just a matter of time for science to catch up to this.”

Certainly when one looks at HeartMath’s Scientific Advisory Board, it’s impressive. I’m not sure how all these MD’s can get on board with HeartMath’s premise, but maybe since I was at HeartMath’s campus (over 5 years ago) they have backed off of some of the more unusual claims they have about the heart. I would suggest that anyone looking into their products to be highly skeptical.


So he didn't like the answer (to his stupid question) and then he 'can't understand why all these MDs are on board' but since he's so smart and seasoned we'd all better be highly skeptical? is that what passes for intelligent review (aka skepticism) these days?


Another way of putting that would be:

* The answer to his stupid question didn't address the issue that he raised on the expressed stupid terms -- ie, what is the scientific support for this?
* So he wasn't able to give a better answer to his fellow devotees of the very same stupid terms over at JREF than:

"I don't know of any scientific support for this. The impressive Scientific Advisory Board might count towards indicating it's okay in those terms. But I don't know that either. So. Given that we're all believers in the validity of the stupid axiom that science is science, I suggest that everyone be highly skeptical, by which I know perfectly well you know that I mean: Check for scientific support. Because I don't got any."
__________

Also, I didn't see him calling your terms stupid, quoting you out of context, or putting words in your mouth in a way that cast your argument in a worse light than the ones you'd used yourself did.

So I don't know what you're so sore at him about. He didn't do anything to you. He simply stated that there's no scientific support for something that has none while addressing people who care about that sort of thing.

Does that injure anyone in any way?
__________

Looks like Heartmath's a military contractor. But maybe also a government contractor. I can't tell. Will advise.
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Re: David Icke: Methods Of A Madman

Postby compared2what? » Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:17 pm

Canadian_watcher » Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:49 pm wrote:
justdrew » Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:29 pm wrote:while it's true that science theories are updated as knowledge grows, and some "opinions" promoted with a scientific basis are later proven false and abandoned (man will never fly), there is ALSO a great big ol' track record of people stating shit with no basis whatsoever and it never being fully abandoned.

Much of what Icke's promulgating is just a modern rewrite of a strain of gnosticism. but I would point out that another aspect of the big G, is "show me" - belief not based on "faith" but on KNOWING. Icke provides no path to knowledge, only a divergent faith.


Faith in oneself is not a faith capital F is it? Are we that far gone down the path to communism (at least in thought?) that we can't be encouraged to think for ourselves without it being construed as a violent evil against the quote greater good unquote?


Of course not.

I mean...Believing that stories are true because they appeal to you and you find them meaningful is faith.

But unless you construe faith as a violent evil against the "greater good" or see someone else doing it, it has no implications along those lines.
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Re: David Icke: Methods Of A Madman

Postby compared2what? » Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:19 pm

Canadian_watcher » Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:45 pm wrote:I'm sorry, but THIS is the guy whose opinion we are putting up on some sort of pedestal>>>>


Where did you see anyone doing that?
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Re: David Icke: Methods Of A Madman

Postby American Dream » Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:31 pm

justdrew » Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:29 pm wrote: Icke provides no path to knowledge, only a divergent faith.


Same would hold true of many New Age luminaries. Rudolph Steiner has reams of material on celstial planes and on deva realms and the like- all revealed to him by extrasensory revelation.

Most trance channels the same- they want faith in their spiritual authority because that's really all they've got.

I do agree that "Icke provides no path to knowledge, only a divergent faith" because even though he may cherry pick facts to support some of his more dubious claims ultimately a lot of it boils down to his personal authority.
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Re: David Icke: Methods Of A Madman

Postby compared2what? » Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:35 pm

American Dream » Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:31 pm wrote:
justdrew » Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:29 pm wrote: Icke provides no path to knowledge, only a divergent faith.


Same would hold true of many New Age luminaries. Rudolph Steiner has reams of material on celstial planes and on deva realms and the like- all revealed to him by extrasensory revelation.

Most trance channels the same- they want faith in their spiritual authority because that's really all they've got.

I do agree that "Icke provides no path to knowledge, only a divergent faith" because even though he may cherry pick facts to support some of his more dubious claims ultimately a lot of it boils down to his personal authority.


Well....Yes.

But does THAT injure anyone in any way? (Meaning: Any known way?)

Sincere question.
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