Open Letter From Dylan Farrow on Abuse by Woody Allan

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Open Letter From Dylan Farrow on Abuse by Woody Allan

Postby elfismiles » Sun Feb 02, 2014 10:50 am

WARNING: Undoubtedly triggering ...

February 1, 2014, 3:04 pm
An Open Letter From Dylan Farrow
By DYLAN FARROW
Image

(A note from Nicholas Kristof: In 1993, accusations that Woody Allen had abused his adoptive daughter, Dylan Farrow, filled the headlines, part of a sensational story about the celebrity split between Allen and his girlfriend, Mia Farrow. This is a case that has been written about endlessly, but this is the first time that Dylan Farrow herself has written about it in public. It’s important to note that Woody Allen was never prosecuted in this case and has consistently denied wrongdoing; he deserves the presumption of innocence. So why publish an account of an old case on my blog? Partly because the Golden Globe lifetime achievement award to Allen ignited a debate about the propriety of the award. Partly because the root issue here isn’t celebrity but sex abuse. And partly because countless people on all sides have written passionately about these events, but we haven’t fully heard from the young woman who was at the heart of them. I’ve written a column about this, but it’s time for the world to hear Dylan’s story in her own words.)

...

What’s your favorite Woody Allen movie? Before you answer, you should know: when I was seven years old, Woody Allen took me by the hand and led me into a dim, closet-like attic on the second floor of our house. He told me to lay on my stomach and play with my brother’s electric train set. Then he sexually assaulted me. He talked to me while he did it, whispering that I was a good girl, that this was our secret, promising that we’d go to Paris and I’d be a star in his movies. I remember staring at that toy train, focusing on it as it traveled in its circle around the attic. To this day, I find it difficult to look at toy trains.



the rest here...
http://kristof.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/0 ... logs&_r=1&
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Re: Open Letter From Dylan Farrow on Abuse by Woody Allan

Postby FourthBase » Sun Feb 02, 2014 9:10 pm

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Re: Open Letter From Dylan Farrow on Abuse by Woody Allan

Postby Nordic » Sun Feb 02, 2014 9:13 pm

Sorry, but that Daily Beast article is pretty lame. It's clear the writer is enamored with Woody.

And with the girl's own testimony now, the article doesn't hold any water. The girl is now 28 and is writing lucidly and with concrete details of a pattern of abuse that occurred during the time.

Her story rings true. The other story feels like desperate apologia.

On FB today and yesterday, I have to say I am astonished at how many men are posting that Daily Beast article and how many men are completely ignoring the girl's own story. It's like they didn't even read it. I find this to be bizarre.

Why would the girl be lying at this point? Because she either is. Or she isn't.

Her own brother believes her. Why shouldn't everybody?

I see people having an emotional attachment to their idea of who they think Woody Allen is. I had one, too, and I sure don't want to believe he's a pedophile, but there you have it. He is. Or was.
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
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Re: Open Letter From Dylan Farrow on Abuse by Woody Allan

Postby sunny » Sun Feb 02, 2014 9:56 pm

That Daily Beast article is a beast of a hit job. It's so..petty.. and vile. It's probably the main reason why Dylan felt like she had to respond in such a searingly personal way.

Woody Allen’s Good Name
By Aaron Bady

This is a basic principle: until it is proven otherwise, beyond a reasonable doubt, it’s important to extend the presumption of innocence to Dylan Farrow, and presume that she is not guilty of the crime of lying about what Woody Allen did to her.

If you are saying things like “We can’t really know what happened” and extra-specially pleading on behalf of the extra-special Woody AllenHi, The Daily Beast!, then you are saying that his innocence is more presumptive than hers. You are saying that he is on trial, not her: he deserves judicial safeguards in the court of public opinion, but she does not.

The damnably difficult thing about all of this, of course, is that you can’t presume that both are innocent at the same time. One of them must be saying something that is not true. But “he said, she said” doesn’t resolve to “let’s start by assume she’s lying,” except in a rape culture, and if you are presuming his innocence by presuming her mendacity, you are rape cultured. It works both ways, or should: if one of them has to be lying for the other to be telling the truth, then presuming the innocence of one produces a presumption of the other’s guilt. And Woody Allen cannot be presumed to be innocent of molesting a child unless she is presumed to be lying to us. His presumption of innocence can only be built on the presumption that her words have no credibility, independent of other (real) evidence, which is to say, the presumption that her words are not evidence. If you want to vigorously claim ignorance–to assert that we can never know what happened, in that attic–then you must ground that lack of knowledge in the presumption that what she has said doesn’t count, and we cannot believe her story.

To be blunt: I think Woody Allen probably did it, though, of course, I could be wrong. But it’s okay if I’m wrong. For two reasons. First, because my opinion is not attached to a juridical apparatus—because I have not been empowered by jails and electric chairs and states of exception to destroy people’s lives—it isn’t necessary for me to err heavily on the side of “we need to be really fucking sure that the accused did it.” It’s a good thing, generally, that juries are empowered to say “We think the accused is probably guilty, but we’re not sure beyond a reasonable doubt, so we will not convict.” That bar is set high for a reason; if you’re going to lock a person in a cage for a long time, you need to be really sure. But we are also empowered to say the same thing. We are also empowered to say “We think Woody Allen probably molested a seven year old.” And because we are not in a court of law, we don’t even need to say the second part. The fact that we will not convict him doesn’t even need to be implied. He is not, after all, on trial.

The second reason it’s okay if I’m wrong is that I’m probably not wrong. It’s much more likely that I’m right. Because I am not on Woody Allen’s jury, I can be swayed by the fact that sexual violence is incredibly, horrifically common, much more common than it is for women to make up stories about sexual violence in pursuit of their own petty, vindictive need to destroy a great man’s reputation. We are in the midst of an ongoing, quiet epidemic of sexual violence, now as always. We are not in the midst of an epidemic of false rape charges, and that fact is important here. All things being equal, it’s more likely that the man who has spent a lifetime and a cinematic career walking the line of pedophilia (to put it mildly); all things being equal, the explanation that doesn’t require you to imagine a conspiracy of angry women telling lies for no reason is probably the right one. It’s a good thing that juries can’t think this way, that they can’t take account of Occam’s Razor, because—in theory—the juridical system needs to get it right every single time (or at least hold tenaciously to that ambition). But you and I can recognize the bigger picture, because we aren’t holding a person’s life in our hands. Especially in situations like this one, the overwhelmingly more likely thing is that he did it. The overwhelmingly less likely thing is that a pair of bitter females—driven by jealousy or by the sheer malignity of the gender—have been lying about him for decades.

What is the burden of proof for assuming that a person is lying? If you are a famous film director, it turns out to be quite high. You don’t have to say a word in your defense, in fact, and people who have directed documentaries about you will write lengthy essays in the Daily Beast tearing down the testimony of your accusers. You can just go about your life making movie after movie, and it’s fine. But if you are a woman who has accused a great film director of molesting you when you were seven, the starting point is the presumption that, without real evidence, you are not telling the truth. In the court of public opinion, a woman accusing a great film director of raping her has no credibility which his fans are bound to respect. He has something to lose, his good name. She does not, because she does not have a good name. She is living in hiding, under an assumed name. And when she is silent, the Daily Beast does not rise to her defense.

In a rape culture, there is no burden on us to presume that she is not a liar, no necessary imperative to treat her like a person whose account of herself can be taken seriously. It is important that we presume he is innocent. It is not important that we presume she is not making it all up out of female malice. In a rape culture, you can say things like “We can’t really know what really happened, so let’s all act as if Woody Allen is innocent (and she is lying).” In a rape culture, you can use your ignorance to cast doubt on her knowledge; you can admit that you have no basis for casting doubt on Dylan’s statement, and then you can ignore her account of herself. A famous man is not speaking, so her testimony is not admissible evidence. His name is Woody Allen, and in a rape culture, that good name must be shielded and protected. What is her name?”

http://thenewinquiry.com/blogs/zunguzun ... good-name/
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Re: Open Letter From Dylan Farrow on Abuse by Woody Allan

Postby smiths » Sun Feb 02, 2014 10:11 pm

Wood Allen guilty? how the hell would I know, but that piece posted above is pure shit


"until it is proven otherwise, beyond a reasonable doubt, it’s important to extend the presumption of innocence to Dylan Farrow ...
The damnably difficult thing about all of this, of course, is that you can’t presume that both are innocent at the same time ...
To be blunt: I think Woody Allen probably did it, though, of course, I could be wrong.
But it’s okay if I’m wrong.
For two reasons ...
First, because my opinion is not attached to a juridical apparatus ...
The second reason it’s okay if I’m wrong is that I’m probably not wrong."

it is a series of stupid, illogical and contradictory statements masquerading as intelligent analysis

there are 2, maybe 3 or 4 people in the world who know the truth, all the rest should shut up
the question is why, who, why, what, why, when, why and why again?
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Re: Open Letter From Dylan Farrow on Abuse by Woody Allan

Postby Nordic » Sun Feb 02, 2014 10:32 pm

smiths » Sun Feb 02, 2014 9:11 pm wrote:Wood Allen guilty? how the hell would I know, but that piece posted above is pure shit


"until it is proven otherwise, beyond a reasonable doubt, it’s important to extend the presumption of innocence to Dylan Farrow ...
The damnably difficult thing about all of this, of course, is that you can’t presume that both are innocent at the same time ...
To be blunt: I think Woody Allen probably did it, though, of course, I could be wrong.
But it’s okay if I’m wrong.
For two reasons ...
First, because my opinion is not attached to a juridical apparatus ...
The second reason it’s okay if I’m wrong is that I’m probably not wrong."

it is a series of stupid, illogical and contradictory statements masquerading as intelligent analysis

there are 2, maybe 3 or 4 people in the world who know the truth, all the rest should shut up



I think the piece is a proper and good response to the bullshit that is the Daily Beast story.

It brings up the most basic truth of this, which should be obvious but for some reason is not:

She probably isn't lying. If she is, what is her motivation? Why would she just make this shit up and spread it around now? Now THAT makes no sense.

Also, people seem to be led into thinking, once again, that it's an "either/or" situation. She was coached by her mother, therefore she WASN'T molested.

Why do those cancel each other out?

I think it's probably true that she was molested AND coached.

People keep talking about Mia Farrow and what a "psycho" she was, but that has absolutely zero to do with this girl's story at this point. She's 28, she's been through therapy, she knows what she's doing.
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Re: Open Letter From Dylan Farrow on Abuse by Woody Allan

Postby smiths » Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:29 am

i havent read the Daily Beast article, its not relevant to my point

the author of the one i quoted says

its important to extend presumption of innocence to Dylan Farrow, then voices public 'feeling' of Allan's guilt based on nothing,

then says its ok if he is wrong because he is probably not wrong


firstly incoherent, secondly moronic

1. make unsubstantiated claim
2. justify unsubstantiated claim on basis thats its OK if claim is wrong based on the fact it probably isnt wrong?????

presumption of innocence is not a zero sum game where the presumption cannot logically be extended to both,
it is an extension of the idea that until all possible facts are known and statements heard it is prudent and just to not voice hunches, why the hell does everyone think that laws are in place to prosecute exactly this kind of baseless slander

you, Nordic, have extended it by adding your own 'I think it's probably true that she was molested' hunch, but based on what?
How exactly have you come to your conclusion that she was molested?

for fuck sake, surely the idiocy of this article is obvious
the question is why, who, why, what, why, when, why and why again?
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Re: Open Letter From Dylan Farrow on Abuse by Woody Allan

Postby Nordic » Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:36 am

The point of the article is this:

"If you want to vigorously claim ignorance–to assert that we can never know what happened, in that attic–then you must ground that lack of knowledge in the presumption that what she has said doesn’t count, and we cannot believe her story."
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
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Re: Open Letter From Dylan Farrow on Abuse by Woody Allan

Postby smiths » Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:35 am

and that central point is undermined by the 2 other central points which are both bullshit

the presumption of innocence can only be given to one party in a dispute, so therefore the assumption of guilt must be made as well
its OK to publicly make a baseless assertion of guilt even if it is wrong, because your 'hunch' is probably right
the question is why, who, why, what, why, when, why and why again?
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Re: Open Letter From Dylan Farrow on Abuse by Woody Allan

Postby Nordic » Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:54 am

smiths » Sun Feb 02, 2014 11:29 pm wrote:you, Nordic, have extended it by adding your own 'I think it's probably true that she was molested' hunch, but based on what?
How exactly have you come to your conclusion that she was molested?



Uh .... her story?

Why are you completely ignoring what she said?

I don't have a "hunch" or anything like that, she says it right there, and there is absolutely no reason to NOT believe her.

Why do you not believe her?

This is what I'm trying to get at.

I did NOT expect to find myself arguing on FB today with a bunch of men about whether or not the Daily Beast article was valid.

The girl told us what happened, she told it lucidly and with the kind of concrete details that have a very loud ring of truth to them, and MEN everywhere seem to be completely ignoring it.

It's just weird as hell to me.

Again, why do you think the girl is lying? What is her motivation for lying about this at age 28?
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Re: Open Letter From Dylan Farrow on Abuse by Woody Allan

Postby Project Willow » Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:24 am

At this point in my life I believe this culture actively supports the sexual abuse of children. It's not ignorance, it's not denial, it's not apathy, it is active support. And so of course this culture hates and resents any victim who, through coming forth in a public way, demands some sort of attention. Of course Dylan will have all hell to pay for opening her mouth.

I've read the various news stories about the case over the years. I've now read Dylan's piece in the OP. Its tone and tenor do not vary in a substantial way from any account of any sexual abuse survivor I've ever read. The very idea that it could be a fabrication is preposterous. There's no motive, there's no sign of confusion or conflation or any thing that might even slightly hint of malingering, quite the opposite. Yet she is not believed, because the public needs their great artist, Woody Allen, and they need all the other power brokers, politicians, public figures, fathers, and family members who just also happen to rape kids. The social order must be upheld and so to hell with the children, they're throw aways, ritual sacrifices without the ritual. That's just how humans are.
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Re: Open Letter From Dylan Farrow on Abuse by Woody Allan

Postby BrandonD » Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:29 am

There seems a huge lack of objectivity in this subject.

We're talking about someone who adopted a girl many decades younger than him, and then later married her. This means he had someone in his house that at some point he perceived as his *daughter*, and yet at a later point he was able to have sex with this person.

This fact is already dangerously close to pedo-town, how can anyone disregard these allegations with any sense of confidence?

This really seems a classic case of people being unable to separate art from the artist, and therefore they feel irrationally compelled to grasp for any story that holds together their current picture of the world.
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Re: Open Letter From Dylan Farrow on Abuse by Woody Allan

Postby BrandonD » Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:35 am

Project Willow » Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:24 am wrote:At this point in my life I believe this culture actively supports the sexual abuse of children. It's not ignorance, it's not denial, it's not apathy, it is active support. And so of course this culture hates and resents any victim who, through coming forth in a public way, demands some sort of attention. Of course Dylan will have all hell to pay for opening her mouth.


Agreed. There is certainly nothing to be gained socially from such an admission, anyone could anticipate that the response would be overwhelmingly negative. Woody Allen is a cherished public figure and she is a "nobody".

It's partially active support as you say, but also partially due to our deification of celebrities because of the dead soul of contemporary culture. If Woody Allen wasn't on the pedestal where he currently resides, I really do think people would look at the case with a more critical eye towards him.
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Re: Open Letter From Dylan Farrow on Abuse by Woody Allan

Postby justdrew » Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:53 am

technically Sun Yi was adopted by a husband of farrow, previn. I don't think allen ever adopted her as a daughter, though it's certainly possible. marrying her mother doesn't legally in and of itself make her his daughter.
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Re: Open Letter From Dylan Farrow on Abuse by Woody Allan

Postby Searcher08 » Mon Feb 03, 2014 7:23 am

Nordic » Mon Feb 03, 2014 7:54 am wrote:
smiths » Sun Feb 02, 2014 11:29 pm wrote:you, Nordic, have extended it by adding your own 'I think it's probably true that she was molested' hunch, but based on what?
How exactly have you come to your conclusion that she was molested?



Uh .... her story?

Why are you completely ignoring what she said?

I don't have a "hunch" or anything like that, she says it right there, and there is absolutely no reason to NOT believe her.

Why do you not believe her?

This is what I'm trying to get at.

I did NOT expect to find myself arguing on FB today with a bunch of men about whether or not the Daily Beast article was valid.

The girl told us what happened, she told it lucidly and with the kind of concrete details that have a very loud ring of truth to them, and MEN everywhere seem to be completely ignoring it.

It's just weird as hell to me.

Again, why do you think the girl is lying? What is her motivation for lying about this at age 28?



I had exactly the same WTF??!! experience with that article on Facebook. It was like 'cognitive glaucoma' regarding what Dylan said. I found the first article vile as it was such calculated disinformation - establishing clear true facts e.g. about Soon Yi in the first part, with handwringing moralising subjectivist bullshit in the second. Much to my yuck, I found that the people who were most favourable to the Daily Beast article and praised it's 'sharp, critical thinking' were the JREF / Randioids.

The issue has nothing to do with Mia Farrow and her mental state or lifestyle choice or Soon Yi. It is about whether Dylan was abused by - and the cultural reaction to that.

I am just waiting for some moron to start the "this was all a long time ago, it's important to move on, let's draw a line under it".
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