Which gender are you?

Moderators: Elvis, DrVolin, Jeff

Which gender are you?

Female
8
14%
Male
37
66%
Alchemical Androgyne
5
9%
None of your business
3
5%
It's complicated
1
2%
Other
2
4%
 
Total votes : 56

Re: Which gender are you?

Postby backtoiam » Mon Nov 23, 2015 5:59 am

mentalgongfu2 » Mon Nov 23, 2015 4:49 am wrote:Oh look, AD still knows how to copy and paste.

That timely contribution will certainly help in my understanding of gender roles and the trans perspective, much more so than individuals sharing their own thoughts and experiences.

But seriously, I hesitated to even post in this thread oh so many pages ago, but it has been interesting to see where it goes. I'd rather not see it shut down just because it's treading on what some consider dangerous territory.



Whatever you do, don't dare suggest that males and females actually exist, and are biologically distinct from one another, and that there is a discernable difference between the two. That shit jumped the shark long time ago evidently.
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Re: Which gender are you?

Postby brainpanhandler » Mon Nov 23, 2015 6:01 am

guruilla » Sun Nov 22, 2015 11:26 pm wrote: One thing feels strangely true, that I could have a much calmer, more compassionate and meaningful conversation with one of the transgender people I've known, than with their supposed defenders, at least as represented at this thread.


Why does that feel strangely true?
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Re: Which gender are you?

Postby brainpanhandler » Mon Nov 23, 2015 6:07 am

slomo » Sun Nov 22, 2015 11:28 pm wrote: [Short aside #2: when did Rigorous Intuition, of all places, become hostile to theories of conspiracy?


Really?
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Re: Which gender are you?

Postby slomo » Mon Nov 23, 2015 6:12 am

The issue isn't the transgenderism, it's the demand that society accommodate every unreasonable whim you might have.

On the one hand, I have known one FtM who was a lovely person, focused entirely on doing good research in our professional setting, and fitting in (in the sense of having normal social interactions and normal friendships that were not predicated on escalating claims of victimhood). On the other, I had the misfortune to meet a supposed FtM who had just recently given birth to an infant, yet insisted on being called "he" in private but "she" in public. And I've met a bunch of ridiculous people who would insist that I use made-up pronouns or else they were going to be extremely offended by my lack of sensitivity to their non-binary gender status.

Being a minority does not entitle you to act like a douchebag. That goes for gay men too, BTW.
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Re: Which gender are you?

Postby slomo » Mon Nov 23, 2015 6:16 am

brainpanhandler » 23 Nov 2015 02:07 wrote:
slomo » Sun Nov 22, 2015 11:28 pm wrote: [Short aside #2: when did Rigorous Intuition, of all places, become hostile to theories of conspiracy?


Really?


Meanwhile, can you haters of fictive Illuminati please, please, PLEASE stop abusing Orwell at every turn? His general statement about telling the truth being a revolutionary act wasn't meant to be stretched to fit every agenda.


I don't personally subscribe to a "fictive Illuminati" driving polarization of gender issues (at least not in the most literal terms), but it's a pretty low blow on this particular board.
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Re: Which gender are you?

Postby Sounder » Mon Nov 23, 2015 6:27 am

slomo wrote...
[Short aside #2: when did Rigorous Intuition, of all places, become hostile to theories of conspiracy? Get over yourself already.]


AD has always been against 'conspiracy theories', which by itself is a fine thing, but with all the hate that comes along for the ride, jeeze that makes his (white boy) shit tiresome.


But it is funny to see AD call anybody that does not toe the propaganda line to be haters. While that seems missing in other posters responses, it seems to exude from AD's posts. Go figure.

AD should probably stick with cut and paste lest he reveal too much of his hateful personality.
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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Re: Which gender are you?

Postby tapitsbo » Mon Nov 23, 2015 6:41 am

brainpanhandler » Mon Nov 23, 2015 6:01 am wrote:
guruilla » Sun Nov 22, 2015 11:26 pm wrote: One thing feels strangely true, that I could have a much calmer, more compassionate and meaningful conversation with one of the transgender people I've known, than with their supposed defenders, at least as represented at this thread.


Why does that feel strangely true?


Probably because real flesh and blood trans people are more secure in their identity than people who have a more abstract investment in certain takes on the subject at stake.
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Re: Which gender are you?

Postby coffin_dodger » Mon Nov 23, 2015 7:37 am

AD:
Any fool can see that this is very much a repeated theme here.


Whoops, there goes the I'm intellectually superior meme, again(!) - these fools just can't understand it, can they?

AD:
The net effect of all the ignorance and bigotry is to make this board extremely unfriendly to queer people, those who do not identify/are not identified as white,men, etc.

Given the hatred and dehumanization expressed, I would guess that this is very often exactly the desired result...


Extremism of any kind tends to blind the extremee of their self-awareness.

Do you ever re-read what you post and see the irony? There is a 'queer' man actively engaged in this debate, but his views are dismissed becuase they don't fit your narrative.

The words you use to describe your enemies, - 'ignorance' (whoops, another intellectually superior swipe), 'bigotry', 'unfriendly', 'hatred', 'dehumanisation' - are the words of an individual lost in the indelible delights of extremism. Your strict and unwavering demands that everyone adhere to the letter of the law governing what can and can't be discussed at RI places you in an unassailable position of heirarchical power - of which you constantly take advantage. The general tone of your comments are of sneering contempt for anyone who holds a differing view. This is extremism.

You have absolutely no self-awareness. Devoid. It has been stolen away by the very thing you worship.
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Re: Which gender are you?

Postby Harvey » Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:34 am

^ Fight or flight response always leads to loss of self awareness, narrowing of social horizons. That's one of the major reasons some find it 'necessary' to induce it. As we're seeing.
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Re: Which gender are you?

Postby backtoiam » Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:55 am

The net effect of all the ignorance and bigotry is to make this board extremely unfriendly to queer people, those who do not identify/are not identified as white,men, etc.
Given the hatred and dehumanization expressed, I would guess that this is very often exactly the desired result...



this is one of the most homosexual friendly, white man hating forums in the universe. this is starting to remind me of a circus act. bring out the giraffes, elephants, and clowns. can this get any better? this has gone into bizarro world...

I was teasing elvis earlier about using the perma ban word, but actually, that shit is sounding better and better...
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Re: Which gender are you?

Postby Sounder » Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:15 am

I was teasing elvis earlier about using the perma ban word, but actually, that shit is sounding better and better...


No,no,no,no, AD functions as an ideal exemplar of form without substance, and as such can be used to inform the larger community about how ideology and propaganda twists ones mentality. :wink:

(And involves and promotes quite a lot of coercion, very patriarchal.)
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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Re: Which gender are you?

Postby American Dream » Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:51 am

Those of you indulging your ignorance and prejudice against transgender people missed the point entirely and then some added insult to injury by hiding behind a kind of twisted victim script. where they don't have to even deal with the minimal standards that Jeff and others actually want for this board.

I'm guessing that most all of your shenanigans are completely on purpose...



American Dream » Mon Nov 23, 2015 4:10 am wrote:Who cares???


Please read: guidelines for posting on the RI board
Postby Jeff » Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:38 am

Welcome to the RI board.

While Rigorous Intuition welcomes a range of informed perspectives, it is not intended to be a forum for the re-fighting of elemental human values. It should be assumed that this is a place where the dignity and rights of all people are respected. Members who challenge these rights may be regarded as disruptive, and members who habitually challenge them will be banned.

This is an anti-fascist board. Propagation of fascist, neo-Nazi and "white pride" causes, including sympathetically linking to sites which advocate such, will not be permitted. This includes revisionist histories of the Holocaust.

This is an anti-sexist board. We correctly assume that women, as a group, have been and continue to be the object of oppression based upon their gender. It is expected that members will respect the rights of women to justice and equality in all spheres of life, and to a positive experience of RI. Contending that feminism is a "New World Order plot" will not be permitted.

Posts advocating violence, or espousing hatred of a people based upon race, religion, gender or sexuality, are not permitted.

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Re: Which gender are you?

Postby backtoiam » Mon Nov 23, 2015 11:08 am

Sounder » Mon Nov 23, 2015 9:15 am wrote:
I was teasing elvis earlier about using the perma ban word, but actually, that shit is sounding better and better...


No,no,no,no, AD functions as an ideal exemplar of form without substance, and as such can be used to inform the larger community about how ideology and propaganda twists ones mentality. :wink:

(And involves and promotes quite a lot of coercion, very patriarchal.)


I guess every coal mind needs a canary, and a weather vane on the roof is a good thing. Canaries usually get killt in the deal. This canary never dies, but I suppose, that serves a function too, then the canary become the weather vane. And actually, sometimes hes kinda cute, if you don't piss him off, but boy this thread has the feathers fluffed don't it? Puffed up like blow fish. Lets watch and see what happens next. Surely it can even better than this. I have faith. I'm glad i'm not a transgender human, because if I was, I would fire ever damn one of my guardians from this thread, pronto. But come to think of it, I might be one and not know it, because evidently, this slope is so slippery nobody can stand on it. I need an Elvis impersonator for this party because i'm planning on waking up with lipstick on my face and panties on my head in the morning. Let it rock baby...:partyhat
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Re: Which gender are you?

Postby Luther Blissett » Mon Nov 23, 2015 11:09 am

Technically it's fear, not hate, but yoda and all that.

This is a pretty good illustration of why transitioning has nothing to do with transhumanism.

Cis People, Stop Thinking About Other People’s Junk All The Damn Time.
Understanding Transsexuality as an Endocrine Disorder

One time I sent a trans woman friend out to get me some menstrual supplies, and she brought back the wrong thing. By the point I realized, we were out on a boat. I cracked a joke about the whole situation, and had to immediately apologize for hurting my friend’s feelings. This annoyed me, though I was not annoyed at my friend. Society had been so completely shitty to her that I couldn’t crack one well-timed, fairly witty joke about being different kinds of women without hurting the hell out of her, which is insanely stupid. Women constantly crack jokes about the differences between women, and there’s something around 3.5 billion different kinds of women alive today. But society has so wildly abused trans people that my friend can’t get in on this rich vein of girl humor. I’m sick of this, and I need people to get a grip on how vicious and ignorant their behavior is.

Nothing about transsexuality is magical or strange, sinful, or even complicated. At this point in medical practice and human history, transsexuality is best understood as a disorder of the endocrine system of the human body, and not even a particularly complicated or esoteric one.

Your endocrine system is the term for the complicated interplay of glands that control signaling and growth around your body, using hormones instead of nerves. It interfaces with the nervous system at points, and some body chemicals, like norepinephrine and dopamine, are considered both hormones and neurotransmitters depending on where and how the body is using them. Diseases of the endocrine system can cause all kinds of crazy body effects: they can make you short, thin, fat, tall, nervous. They can make men lactate and women grow beards. They can cause intersex disorders. Anything the endocrine system controls is subject to the diseases and disorders of the endocrine system.

The endocrine system directs the body to develop in a male or female-sexed way, responding in part to genetics, but mostly as an epigenetic phenomenon. In some people, the brain and mind just aren’t going along with what the endocrine system is doing. For people without a very strong mental gender, this probably doesn’t matter much. I suspect there’s a lot more of these people than anyone realizes. For people with a strong mental gender that matches what the endocrine system is doing, it definitely doesn’t matter. For people with a strong mental gender and and an endocrine system that mapped their body another way, well, that’s the definition of a disorder or disease. In this case, the medical community refers to this as “gender dysphoria.”

Like nearly all other conditions, probably the vast majority of instances of transsexuality don’t rise to the level of needing medical treatment or public intervention. You can get a bit hypomanic sometimes without having bipolar disorder or be a handwashing neat freak without having OCD — the disorder comes, by definition, when it’s starting to harm your life. The idea of a medical problem is defined by the need for medical intervention. Transsexual or gender dysphoric patients are not pathological people, any more than appendicitis, or cancer, or asthma defines you or makes you pathological. It just makes you in need of medical help to manage your body.

Unlike those other things, transsexuality can’t be detected in a CAT scan. But in fact, most disorders can’t be. Think of things like neuropathic pain, phantom limb syndrome, or epilepsy. There might be nothing wrong in a tissue-trauma sense, but no one with a shred of compassion would tell someone who lives in constant, searing pain that it’s all in their head and therefore it doesn’t matter. Pain is literally all in your head, all the time. It can’t be perceived anywhere else.

So, for transsexuality to be a disorder, there has to be some degree of discomfort between the mind’s sense of gender and how the endocrine system is playing out in the body. When seeking to treat such a phenomenon, you might assume treating the mind is easier than treating the body. Let’s say that’s fine, whatever, what we want here is the trans person to be out of pain. Except as it turns out, no one knows how to change mental gender, and it’s not for lack of trying. In general trying too hard to alter the mind of someone in the power of a medical or governmental system has proven to be not only ineffective, but horrible.
That’s the horrible mistake people have made with gender dysphoria as well, sometimes going so far as to torture children to death in an attempt to violently alter the gender of their minds.


Many transfolk would have wanted to change their minds, if it were so easy. If there was a drug or therapy that adjusted mental gender, many transfolk would opt for it in a heartbeat. Not all, but many would avoid the social censure, breaks from family, and constant prejudice they face for having this endocrine disorder. Even cis people would be flocking to such a drug, based on all the successful marketing on being more of a man or more of a woman. Often transfolk have long painful stories of believing, as so many people in the public do, that mental gender is easier to treat than the endocrine system. The truth is, we’ve known of this disorder for thousands of years, and we’ve gotten nowhere trying to force an adjustment on mental gender.

The next medically responsible place to turn, therefore, is that pesky endocrine system.

The endocrine system is by no means a spotless operator. Some of the most common and terrible diseases in the world are endocrine diseases, such as diabetes and Addison’s. The sexual endocrine system seems just as error prone as the rest of it. I’m not sure why a system that causes puberty problems, infertility in both sexes, chronic pain, sexual dysfunction in both sexes, and even reoccurring tumors, would suddenly be considered a flawless determiner of gender. So if someone is experiencing a level of transsexuality that requires medical support, society should give them that medical support. I have no idea why this concept is so difficult for people.

How do we know someone is experiencing this endocrine problem? Like the vast majority of diagnosed illnesses, we know because they tell us. Even when your doctor tells you what you have, it’s often based on what you told them. I support what I call the Really Really test for transsexuality, which goes something like this:
“Do you really want to transition?”
“Really.”
“Really really?”
“Really really.”
“Well, ok then. Here’s how it works…”

(An aside: I do support the idea of a psych evaluation pre-transition, but this is because I support the idea of a psych eval before plastic surgery, having children, going to college, or possibly going on a long vacation. I think the idea of everyone getting supportive psych evals at least as often as general checkups or pap smears would make for a better society in general. We’ve worked out colds and flus aren’t caused by sin and demons, it would be nice if we could work out the same about bouts of minor depression, hypomania, and other things that derail our lives for seemingly no reason.)

The nice part of this story is that treating an endocrine disorder is relatively easy compared to treating a mind or brain problem. When the endocrine system isn’t releasing the right hormones we can often just take them as medicine and get on with our lives. This is what we do with Synthroid when we have a crappy thyroid gland, or insulin if we have Type 1 Diabetes. So it follows in many cases of gender dysphoria, we can at least start to fix it by administering the correct hormones, and giving those people support in managing their bodies, like we would any people with a chronic mismatch of interbody systems.

At least, until people without this disorder start freaking out about trans people’s junk. This is honest-to-god all that’s going on here: a group of people with an endocrine disorder, who may or may not get plastic surgery for it, dealing with almost everyone else in society freaking out thinking about their genitals. (Some of the surgeries can help with the medicine dosing and outcomes, so they’re not all strictly plastic surgery, but those are patient-doctor details which I rightly don’t care about as they are none of my business.)

So here’s my suggestion, fellow cis people: stop obsessing over the genitals of people with a particular endocrine disorder. That’s all you’re doing! Picking out a disease and poking and prodding people who have it, sometimes until they kill themselves. It’s horrible, and it’s amazingly tacky. It’s up there with cancer shaming and making fun of kids with Down’s Syndrome. Seriously, stop it.

Sometimes the brain doesn't match the endocrine system. People can take hormones to correct this, and live a normal life. Stop imagining them naked.
If you’re really stuck on wanting to treat this disorder by making the mind match the endocrine system, please by all means, devote your life to that science. Study neurology, and its link to psychology. We have so much we need to learn before we can get to the detailed depth of human gender and sex. At that level of understanding, I’d wager we could cure diseases like Schizophrenia, Bipolar, Depression. We could intercede for people with low intelligence, lack of creativity, Sociopathy, and PTSD. Go for it, all humanity would thank you for advancing our species. But until we have that level of understanding, let these men and women live their lives in a little damn peace.
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Re: Which gender are you?

Postby Elvis » Mon Nov 23, 2015 12:32 pm

backtoiam » Mon Nov 23, 2015 5:55 am wrote:
this is one of the most homosexual friendly, white man hating forums in the universe.



Honestly, what is that all about?
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