Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby guruilla » Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:50 pm

Leonard Cohen, some suggestive facts (with occasional Ann Diamond testimony).

Fact: Leonard Cohen born 1934 of predominant Jewish lineage. Officially “middle class” but his mother was the daughter of a Talmudic writer, Rabbi Solomon Klonitsky-Kline, of Lithuanian Jewish ancestry and his paternal grandfather was Lyon Cohen, founding president of the Canadian Jewish Congress. Cohen: “I had a very Messianic childhood. . . I was told I was a descendant of Aaron, the high priest.”

Fact: Cohen’s father, a clothing manufacturer, died when Cohen was nine.

Fact: In 1944, Cohen started attending summer camp as a 10-year-old at Camp Hiawatha in the Laurentians region north of Montreal. (link)

Fact: Excelled at school and college, student council member.

Fact: As a teenager Cohen started a band called Buckskin Boys. Hung out on St. Laurent Boulevard to watch “gangster, pimps, and wrestlers.”

Ann Diamond Testimony (ADT): St. Laurent Boulevard was a largely Jewish-run crime district; Cohen may have had family who were involved in local business.

Fact: In 1950, Cohen became a counselor at Camp Sunshine, a Jewish community camp.

Fact: In 1951 (at 17) Cohen enrolled at McGill University, became president of the McGill Debating Union, and won the Chester MacNaghten Literary Competition for his poetry.

ADT: In 1951, Cohen took part in Dr. Donald Hebb’s notorious sensory isolation experiments, for which student volunteers were paid $20 a day.

Fact: Hebb was involved with CIA-backed mind control experiments at McGill Uni during this time. He did use student volunteers, and paid them $20 a day.) The notorious picture that’s been discussed at this thread is of one of them, or at least, it precisely matches the conditions they were subjected to. And yes, it’s perhaps not an entirely subjective statement to say that he does resemble Leonard Cohen.

Fact: Cohen published his first poems in March 1954 in the magazine CIV/n, and the issue also included poetry by Cohen’s poet-professor (who was on the editorial board), Irving Layton. Cohen graduated from McGill the following year with a B.A. degree.

Fact: In 1956 Cohen’s poetry Let Us Compare Mythologies was published as the first book in the McGill Poetry Series, the year after Cohen’s graduation (poems written largely when Cohen was between the ages of 15 and 20). Canadian literary critic Northrop Frye praised the book, and continued to endorse Cohen’s work thereafter. Frye is considered one of the most influential critics of the 20th century.

Fact: Cohen supported himself during this period and into his twenties without having regular work, supposedly thanks to “a modest trust income” from his father’s will.

Fact: In 1958, Cohen participated in counseling children at a McGill-affiliated camp. His main interest appears to have been sex, however.

Image
(Various Positions by Ira B. Nadel)

Fact: in April 1959, both Cohen and his mentor Irving Layton received Canadian Council grants. Cohen’s “proposed project was to write a novel drawn from visits to the ancient capitals of Rome, Athens, and Jerusalem,” which the CC agreed to fund. With $2000 in his pocket, Cohen left Canada.

Fact: in late 1959 to early 1960 (apparently on his way to Jerusalem), Cohen sojourned in Hampstead, London, along with several friends from Montreal such as Nancy Bacal. (Bacal went on to be one of the first people to interview Pink Floyd, and became a teacher at Esalen. More on her in a minute.)

Fact: In London, Cohen met Jacob Rothschild, who suggested Cohen go to Hydra, with specific mention of Nikos Hadjikyriakos-Ghikas’s mansion. Ghikas had just married Barbara Hutchinson, Jacob’s mother, after she divorced Victor Rothschild, Jacob’s father.

Image
(Various Positions by Ira B. Nadel)

Image
(I'm Your Man, by Silvie Simmons)

Fact: Cohen arrived in Hydra in 1960, after his visit to Jerusalem, and allegedly took to it at first sight.

ADT: Cohen tried to visit the Ghikas mansion but was refused entry (presumably by a servant); he cursed the house and the next day it burned down. This may be true, but if so it did not happen until 1965. Ghikas was in London at the time and blamed his servant. He never returned to Hydra again. (link)

Fact: In 1960, at most mere months after arriving there, Henry Luce’s Life magazine (which was a major asset in the CIA’s Operation Mockingbird) published a photospread of Bohemian life on Hydra, in which Cohen was predominantly placed with his guitar.

Fact: In 1961 (still working on his CC-funded novel?), Cohen visited Cuba, after the revolution and right before the Bay of Pigs US invasion occurred. He was arrested as a spy on the beach, but eventually released. The invasion began and he was again arrested at the airport while trying to leave, supposedly having been mistaken for a Cuban solider trying to escape. He was miraculously able to escape.

Image
(Various Positions by Ira B. Nadel)

(In passing, the short article about this which I linked to a couple of months ago, both at my blog at and at Disinfo.com, is now offline. Considering that Cohen’s PR people and lawyers appear to be busy monitoring this discussion and my own blog, this may not be coincidental.)

Fact: in 1962, Cohen returned to London and hung out with Bacal and her boyfriend, the gangster-turned-black activist Michael X. X and Bacal formed the London Black Power Movement. Cohen later joked/boasted about his friendship with Michael X on Canadian TV, how X had promised him a country. For followers of the Occult Yorkshire/Crucial Fictions investigation, another of Cohen’s Montreal pals in London during this period was Robert Hershorn, seen here with Roman Polanski)

Fact: Having had his poetry picked up by the leading Canadian publisher McClelland and Stewart in 1961, his novels The Favorite Game and Beautiful Losers were published in 1963 and 1966. None of these sold especially well, and by 1965, by all rights, notwithstanding the strange Life magazine photo-shoot and an unusual degree of prizes and government funding, Cohen ought still to have been a fairly little-known poet. Despite which:

Fact: In 1964-5, National Film Board of Canada (NFBC) (founded to create propaganda during the Second World War) produced an hour-long documentary about Cohen called Ladies & Gentlemen, Mr. Leonard Cohen. The documentary begins with a humorous anecdote about Cohen’s visit to an unnamed mental institution. Later on, Cohen talks about why he went to Cuba, his "deep interest in violence," and how he "wanted to kill or be killed.” He also refers to his friendship with Michael X (without naming him). Towards the end, the documentary shows Cohen mingling with a young Bohemian crowd, with a voice-over about how Cohen is especially “interested in young people.” He is also seen playing guitar and singing at a party.

Fact: Soon after this film is released, Cohen professes to be disillusioned by his lack of success as a poet and novelist, and opts to change horses mid-stream and become a folk singer. In 1967, he moves to New York and joins Andy Warhol’s Factory crowd, hanging out with Lou Reed and Niko (and Bob Dylan). In no time at all (after playing a few folk festivals), he signs a contract with John Hammond, Jr., one of the most famous talent scouts in music history, as well as a Vanderbilt.

Fact: Cohen’s song “Suzanne” became a hit for Judy Collins before Cohen had even recorded a single song.

Fact: In 1967, Cohen appears (as “Singer”) in The Ernie Game, directed by Ladies & Gentlemen co-director Don Owen for the NFBC. The film is about a man released from an asylum, struggling to survive in society.

Fact: Also in 1967 (before his first album was even released, in December of that year), Cohen returned to London where he played live on the BBC’s Julie Felix program. Julie Felix belonged to a countercultural circle along with Michael Hollingshead, purportedly a major player in the (MKULTRA-linked) CIA-LSD operation of the period, who supplied LSD to the likes of Roman Polanski, Cohen’s buddy Alex Trocchi, William Burroughs, Paul McCartney, Eric Clapton, Donovan, and the Rolling Stones (link).

Fact: Also during this period, (according to Acid Dreams), Cohen was said to have visited the LSD guru John Starr Cooke, in Mexico (along with Andrija Puharich).

Image

Crucial Fictions readers familiar with the London ‘68 nexus may be interested to know Cohen was in London in 1968 also, and recorded songs for (alleged pedophile) John Peel.

Fact: After releasing two more albums, Cohen began touring for the first time in 1970. He named his band The Army, and ended his concerts with a military salute.

ADT: When Ann Diamond first saw Cohen, she and her friends experienced themselves entering into a trance state while listening to him. Cohen's hypnotic stage talents were able to calm down an unruly crowd at the Isle of Wight festival in 1970, after which Kris Kristofferson allegedly said, “Leonard’s our boy.” KK’s father was a U.S. Air Force Major General and there are lots of unsubstantiated claims (including by David Icke, one of the first people to finger Jimmy Savile) about his being an operative or worse. None of these claims are as yet within the realm of documented historical fact, however.

Fact: By Cohen’s own account, when Cohen first met Janis Joplin at the Chelsea Hotel (widely rumored to have been an operations hub for the CIA), he introduced himself as Kris Kristofferson, whom Joplin was looking for.

Fact: In 1973, a few days before the Yom Kippur war began, Cohen travelled to Israel. He joined the Israel Defense Forces(IDF) but did not fight, being considered more useful as a singer to boost soldier morale.

Fact: Immediately after his stint in the IDF, Cohen flew from Israel to Asmara, Ethiopia, where he supposedly wrote “Chelsea Hotel” (about Janis Joplin). The Ethiopian revolution/civil war began soon after his visit, in early 1974. In Cohen bios, AFAIK and based on a Google Books search, the only mention of Asmara refers to his writing a song there. Whatever his reasons for being there, they appear to have been lost to history (deemed immaterial).

Fact, in “Field Commander Cohen” released in 1974, Cohen refers to himself as “our most important spy.” But that’s OK, he’s just being ironic:

Image
Leonard Cohen: The Music and The Mystique, by Maurice Ratcliff

Then again, brekin may be right. Maybe intelligence operatives wear tuxedos, drive Aston Martins, drink martinis, and say their names in reverse order? Maybe there’s no need to wonder about anyone who doesn’t fit that bill, and if we still have any doubts, just ask someone closely affiliated with them and see what they think. I mean, what’s the alternative? To try to identify an operative by tracking his activities, seeing which people he associates with, where his money comes from, which groups are backing him, where he travels to and when, what sort of things happen around him or what kind of coded messages he leaves behind ~ that’s not critical thinking, that’s just crazy talk!
Last edited by guruilla on Sun Nov 29, 2015 8:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby PufPuf93 » Sat Nov 28, 2015 10:51 pm

That's a great piece of work in organizing a timeline like that.

Thank you.
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby lunarmoth » Sat Nov 28, 2015 11:35 pm

A few small corrections. Ghikas married Barbara Hutchison not Barbara Hutton (you got it right the second time).

Montreal's St Laurence Boulevard was an industrial and commercial street especially for the garment trade - but organized crime was always present. As the factories closed, artists moved in and began renting the spaces as lofts. It's now a trendy bar district.

1958-59 was a crucial year for Cohen, age 24. Sylvie Simmons reports he was having serious mental issues, which were noted by his friends. He was also starting to perform in downtown clubs sometimes as a stand up comic ...

Re: his sudden rise in the NY folk scene - imho his songs alone opened those doors but -- .... (for another time)

Great compilation, guruilla. It almost lends legitimacy to a topic that isn't easy to keep in focus. And what if it wasn't really Leonard... or rather only "half his fault and half the atmosphere" .. or just the Season of the Witch?
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby Cordelia » Sun Nov 29, 2015 2:26 pm

Greatly insightful, informative thread.

(And thanks for steering the topic back on track despite repeated efforts to derail!)
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby backtoiam » Sun Nov 29, 2015 3:15 pm

Nicely done guruilla and very interesting.
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby lunarmoth » Sun Nov 29, 2015 4:30 pm

I wonder if anyone here would be interested in talking about programming /deprogramming as it relates to this thread topic?

This past week I have had people contacting me about their experience of being controlled by handlers, and attempts to break or loosen the control.

It just seems to me that is a subcurrent of this discussion, too. Another way to put it is, some people here are being triggered. Or triggering one another. Or that's how I experience it. It can feel quite messy and "embarrassing" when it's happening. The usual response is to apologize for going overboard, apologize, and change then subject.

So on that topic, I'd like to apologize to brekin for giving him a hard time, but I don't know if certain things would have got sorted if I'd been polite.
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby nashvillebrook » Sun Nov 29, 2015 5:41 pm

yes on the programming/deprogramming thing. i'd very much like to know more.


also...glad to see the thread back on track :hug1:
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby brekin » Sun Nov 29, 2015 6:24 pm

guruilla » Sat Nov 28, 2015 8:50 pm wrote:Leonard Cohen, some suggestive facts (with occasional Ann Diamond testimony).

Fact: Leonard Cohen born 1934 of predominant Jewish lineage. Officially “middle class” but his mother was the daughter of a Talmudic writer, Rabbi Solomon Klonitsky-Kline, of Lithuanian Jewish ancestry and his paternal grandfather was Lyon Cohen, founding president of the Canadian Jewish Congress. Cohen: “I had a very Messianic childhood. . . I was told I was a descendant of Aaron, the high priest.”

Fact: Cohen’s father, a clothing manufacturer, died when Cohen was nine.

Fact: Excelled at school and college, student council member.

Fact: As a teenager Cohen started a band called Buckskin Boys. Hung out on St. Laurent Boulevard to watch “gangster, pimps, and wrestlers.”

Ann Diamond Testimony (ADT): St. Laurent Boulevard was a largely Jewish-run crime district; Cohen may have had family who were involved in local business.

Fact: In 1951 (at 17) Cohen enrolled at McGill University, became president of the McGill Debating Union, and won the Chester MacNaghten Literary Competition for his poetry.

ADT: In 1951, Cohen took part in Dr. Donald Hebb’s notorious sensory isolation experiments, for which student volunteers were paid $20 a day.

Fact: Hebb was involved with CIA-backed mind control experiments at McGill Uni during this time. He did use student volunteers, and paid them $20 a day.) The notorious picture that’s been discussed at this thread is of one of them, or at least, it precisely matches the conditions they were subjected to. And yes, it’s perhaps not an entirely subjective statement to say that he does resemble Leonard Cohen.

Fact: Cohen published his first poems in March 1954 in the magazine CIV/n, and the issue also included poetry by Cohen’s poet-professor (who was on the editorial board), Irving Layton. Cohen graduated from McGill the following year with a B.A. degree.

Fact: In 1956 Cohen’s poetry Let Us Compare Mythologies was published as the first book in the McGill Poetry Series, the year after Cohen’s graduation (poems written largely when Cohen was between the ages of 15 and 20). Canadian literary critic Northrop Frye praised the book, and continued to endorse Cohen’s work thereafter. Frye is considered one of the most influential critics of the 20th century.

Fact: Cohen supported himself during this period and into his twenties without having regular work, supposedly thanks to “a modest trust income” from his father’s will.

Fact: In 1958, Cohen participated in counseling children at a McGill-affiliated camp. His main interest appears to have been sex, however.

Image
(Various Positions by Ira B. Nadel)

Fact: in April 1959, both Cohen and his mentor Irving Layton received Canadian Council grants. Cohen’s “proposed project was to write a novel drawn from visits to the ancient capitals of Rome, Athens, and Jerusalem,” which the CC agreed to fund. With $2000 in his pocket, Cohen left Canada.

Fact: in late 1959 to early 1960 (apparently on his way to Jerusalem), Cohen sojourned in Hampstead, London, along with several friends from Montreal such as Nancy Bacal. (Bacal went on to be one of the first people to interview Pink Floyd, and became a teacher at Esalen. More on her in a minute.)

Fact: In London, Cohen met Jacob Rothschild, who suggested Cohen go to Hydra, with specific mention of Nikos Hadjikyriakos-Ghikas’s mansion. Ghikas had just married Barbara Hutchinson, Jacob’s mother, after she divorced Victor Rothschild, Jacob’s father.

Image
(Various Positions by Ira B. Nadel)

Image
(I'm Your Man, by Silvie Simmons)

Fact: Cohen arrived in Hydra in 1960, after his visit to Jerusalem, and allegedly took to it at first sight.

ADT: Cohen tried to visit the Ghikas mansion but was refused entry (presumably by a servant); he cursed the house and the next day it burned down. This may be true, but if so it did not happen until 1965. Ghikas was in London at the time and blamed his servant. He never returned to Hydra again. (link)

Fact: In 1960, at most mere months after arriving there, Henry Luce’s Life magazine (which was a major asset in the CIA’s Operation Mockingbird) published a photospread of Bohemian life on Hydra, in which Cohen was predominantly placed with his guitar.

Fact: In 1961 (still working on his CC-funded novel?), Cohen visited Cuba, after the revolution and right before the Bay of Pigs US invasion occurred. He was arrested as a spy on the beach, but eventually released. The invasion began and he was again arrested at the airport while trying to leave, supposedly having been mistaken for a Cuban solider trying to escape. He was miraculously able to escape.

Image
(Various Positions by Ira B. Nadel)

(In passing, the short article about this which I linked to a couple of months ago, both at my blog at and at Disinfo.com, is now offline. Considering that Cohen’s PR people and lawyers appear to be busy monitoring this discussion and my own blog, this may not be coincidental.)

Fact: in 1962, Cohen returned to London and hung out with Bacal and her boyfriend, the gangster-turned-black activist Michael X. X and Bacal formed the London Black Power Movement. Cohen later joked/boasted about his friendship with Michael X on Canadian TV, how X had promised him a country. For followers of the Occult Yorkshire/Crucial Fictions investigation, another of Cohen’s Montreal pals in London during this period was Robert Hershorn, seen here with Roman Polanski)

Fact: Having had his poetry picked up by the leading Canadian publisher McClelland and Stewart in 1961, his novels The Favorite Game and Beautiful Losers were published in 1963 and 1966. None of these sold especially well, and by 1965, by all rights, notwithstanding the strange Life magazine photo-shoot and an unusual degree of prizes and government funding, Cohen ought still to have been a fairly little-known poet. Despite which:

Fact: In 1964-5, National Film Board of Canada (NFBC) (founded to create propaganda during the Second World War) produced an hour-long documentary about Cohen called Ladies & Gentlemen, Mr. Leonard Cohen. The documentary begins with a humorous anecdote about Cohen’s visit to an unnamed mental institution. Later on, Cohen talks about why he went to Cuba, his "deep interest in violence," and how he "wanted to kill or be killed.” He also refers to his friendship with Michael X (without naming him). Towards the end, the documentary shows Cohen mingling with a young Bohemian crowd, with a voice-over about how Cohen is especially “interested in young people.” He is also seen playing guitar and singing at a party.

Fact: Soon after this film is released, Cohen professes to be disillusioned by his lack of success as a poet and novelist, and opts to change horses mid-stream and become a folk singer. In 1967, he moves to New York and joins Andy Warhol’s Factory crowd, hanging out with Lou Reed and Niko (and Bob Dylan). In no time at all (after playing a few folk festivals), he signs a contract with John Hammond, Jr., one of the most famous talent scouts in music history, as well as a Vanderbilt.

Fact: Cohen’s song “Suzanne” became a hit for Judy Collins before Cohen had even recorded a single song.

Fact: In 1967, Cohen appears (as “Singer”) in The Ernie Game, directed by Ladies & Gentlemen co-director Don Owen for the NFBC. The film is about a man released from an asylum, struggling to survive in society.

Fact: Also in 1967 (before his first album was even released, in December of that year), Cohen returned to London where he played live on the BBC’s Julie Felix program. Julie Felix belonged to a countercultural circle along with Michael Hollingshead, purportedly a major player in the (MKULTRA-linked) CIA-LSD operation of the period, who supplied LSD to the likes of Roman Polanski, Cohen’s buddy Alex Trocchi, William Burroughs, Paul McCartney, Eric Clapton, Donovan, and the Rolling Stones (link).

Fact: Also during this period, (according to Acid Dreams), Cohen was said to have visited the LSD guru John Starr Cooke, in Mexico (along with Andrija Puharich).

Image

Crucial Fictions readers familiar with the London ‘68 nexus may be interested to know Cohen was in London in 1968 also, and recorded songs for (alleged pedophile) John Peel.

Fact: After releasing two more albums, Cohen began touring for the first time in 1970. He named his band The Army, and ended his concerts with a military salute.

ADT: When Ann Diamond first saw Cohen, she and her friends experienced themselves entering into a trance state while listening to him. Cohen's hypnotic stage talents were able to calm down an unruly crowd at the Isle of Wight festival in 1970, after which Kris Kristofferson allegedly said, “Leonard’s our boy.” KK’s father was a U.S. Air Force Major General and there are lots of unsubstantiated claims (including by David Icke, one of the first people to finger Jimmy Savile) about his being an operative or worse. None of these claims are as yet within the realm of documented historical fact, however.

Fact: By Cohen’s own account, when Cohen first met Janis Joplin at the Chelsea Hotel (widely rumored to have been an operations hub for the CIA), he introduced himself as Kris Kristofferson, whom Joplin was looking for.

Fact: In 1973, a few days before the Yom Kippur war began, Cohen travelled to Israel. He joined the Israel Defense Forces(IDF) but did not fight, being considered more useful as a singer to boost soldier morale.

Fact: Immediately after his stint in the IDF, Cohen flew from Israel to Asmara, Ethiopia, where he supposedly wrote “Chelsea Hotel” (about Janis Joplin). The Ethiopian revolution/civil war began soon after his visit, in early 1974. In Cohen bios, AFAIK and based on a Google Books search, the only mention of Asmara refers to his writing a song there. Whatever his reasons for being there, they appear to have been lost to history (deemed immaterial).

Fact, in “Field Commander Cohen” released in 1974, Cohen refers to himself as “our most important spy.” But that’s OK, he’s just being ironic:

Image
Leonard Cohen: The Music and The Mystique, by Maurice Ratcliff

Then again, brekin may be right. Maybe intelligence operatives wear tuxedos, drive Aston Martins, drink martinis, and say their names in reverse order? Maybe there’s no need to wonder about anyone who doesn’t fit that bill, and if we still have any doubts, just ask someone closely affiliated with them and see what they think. I mean, what’s the alternative? To try to identify an operative by tracking his activities, seeing which people he associates with, where his money comes from, which groups are backing him, where he travels to and when, what sort of things happen around him or what kind of coded messages he leaves behind ~ that’s not critical thinking, that’s just crazy talk!


This is good, if only to have it all in one place. But again, this is just LC trivial pursuit with allusions to, well nothing really substantial. What purpose could/did LC serve in any of the supposed operations above? And what were the operations? This is like doing someones celebrity conspiracy astrological chart. Neil Diamond's could be much more damning for all we know.

I'm just not seeing the bigger intelligence picture that this is supposedly suppose to be painting. Everyone is three to four degrees removed from somebody criminal or creepy, and anybody of LC's age and career is going to have rubbed up against turbulent political events. This is just in line with the tendency that has been popularized in the last few years to group somewhat spooky data with however tenuous strands to supposed actual conspiracies and hardly identifying-

an operative by tracking his activities, seeing which people he associates with, where his money comes from, which groups are backing him, where he travels to and when, what sort of things happen around him or what kind of coded messages he leaves behind


What is missing besides the real defining details of any of the above where LC played a significant part, or even an insignificant part, to bring about any change in the situation is what function does/would LC serve overall in such an agenda? I mean, there are paid professionals to do the dirty work and the heavy lifting. There are paid professionals to flit about the globe and do the strategizing and bag dropping. What role does LC play in intelligence strategy or tactics, because the evidence above is pretty dismal for that above and if people are going to try and sell he's some type of cultural ambassador influencing minds on that level I think we can all agree he's no Bob Dylan. (Unless you subscribe to the theory he wrote Dylan's songs.)

No where did I see where his money comes from other than him being a rich boy which we all knew from day one (and there's a mystery there from research I did awhile ago, from being totally broke to owning tons of real estate and supposedly a lot of Revlon stock), or him involved in any criminal activity or associated with a criminal activity or group. Or his associations or traveling being necessarily connected to him being involved in anything interesting on a criminal or occult level.

For those who will cry, Blind! Blind! Don't you see brekin, LC is a intelligence operative, but one who doesn't where a tuxedo all the time!! I say, pick the best example from above as evidence or an example LC as an intelligence operative. I'm really quite curious to see which one people think as positive proof.
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby backtoiam » Sun Nov 29, 2015 6:55 pm

This is just in line with the tendency that has been popularized in the last few years to group somewhat spooky data with however tenuous strands to supposed actual conspiracies and hardly identifying-


I thought gathering data, putting it in a pile, and using bit of intuition in an attempt to interpret meaning from it was the Rigorous Intuition part? :shrug:
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby brekin » Sun Nov 29, 2015 7:41 pm

backtoiam » Sun Nov 29, 2015 5:55 pm wrote:
This is just in line with the tendency that has been popularized in the last few years to group somewhat spooky data with however tenuous strands to supposed actual conspiracies and hardly identifying-


I thought gathering data, putting it in a pile, and using bit of intuition in an attempt to interpret meaning from it was the Rigorous Intuition part? :shrug:


No, that is the ethic of the internet consolidator. You just take a little copypasta from here, a little from there, a little suggestive seasoning, rub your wand over it, and voila! pronounce so and so is an intelligence operative. But you haven't proven anything, other than to those who already want to believe. All you have is a suggestive pile and not a chain of reasoning building an argument to a logical conclusion. Arguments have a structure building on claims and supporting evidence whereas piles have no structure, but people can point to them and say, "The truth is in there, somewhere. I can't remember where the photo is or what specific evidence would lead one to conclude that its true, but after spending a lot of time playing in the pile I believe it is so." People like piles, though, because there very unstructuring forestall unpleasant realities and logical challenges, point by point, because the points are so diffuse, hidden and unconnected that they hold the promise of anything being possibly true. It is threatening then when the pile starts to be organized and attempts to build an argument with the before believed solid pieces of the pile.

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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby guruilla » Sun Nov 29, 2015 7:56 pm

@brekin: I'm not going to address your question, even though it may be sincere, because, while "the squeaky wheel gets the oil" is a fair principle for group therapy and spiritual workshops, it does not work so well in a think tank, where personal issues (or in this case, skepticism taken to a borderline neurotic degree - just IMHO, of course) don't really have much of a place. After a certain amount of squeaking, "If you don't like it, why stay?" becomes a reasonable response, I think. Simply put, you are the only one complaining at this thread, and your complaints (again IMO) have got us absolutely nowhere so far in terms of teasing out the material (though they may have been part of a therapeutic process for some involved).

I will address this however (and not due to favoritism but because it seems actually relevant):
lunarmoth » Sun Nov 29, 2015 4:30 pm wrote:I wonder if anyone here would be interested in talking about programming /deprogramming as it relates to this thread topic?

This past week I have had people contacting me about their experience of being controlled by handlers, and attempts to break or loosen the control.

It just seems to me that is a subcurrent of this discussion, too. Another way to put it is, some people here are being triggered. Or triggering one another. Or that's how I experience it. It can feel quite messy and "embarrassing" when it's happening. The usual response is to apologize for going overboard, apologize, and change then subject.

So on that topic, I'd like to apologize to brekin for giving him a hard time, but I don't know if certain things would have got sorted if I'd been polite.

Answering also another private question from today, about whether I would resort to hypnosis as a means to remove internal programming, the short answer is "probably not," unless it came about very organically as part of a process I was already engaged in with someone I already knew well and trusted. What constitutes hypnosis, and what constitutes de/programming is a pretty grey area, since any sort of therapeutic space allows for relaxation, letting go, and for changing states of awareness that might be called trance.

I don't see deprogramming as a process that some expert can help with as being separate, or possible to separate, from the larger therapeutic process of transference; if it could be practiced separately, I would immediately distrust the person practicing it. (To learn deprogramming means to know programming, right?)

In my own life, whatever programming I seek to get clear of is the result of deep psychological trauma and it is the cause of a lack of embodiment.The goal is full embodiment, and the means to that is the total integration of past traumas, and the corresponding clearing out of psychic poisons (and the programming along with them). AFAIK, all that needs to happen for this to occur is for us to allow back into bodily awareness the suppressed/split off affects of trauma hidden behind the psychic pain barriers of forgetting (which create the alters). In other words, just a letting in and a letting go, a willingness to re-experience the terror and anguish of being powerless in the hands of powerful abusers (or even simply that of being powerless in the face of terrible neglect from our caregivers), and the terrible grief and sorrow of having lived a half-life of corresponding self-abuse and neglect. It ain't no picnic.

Ironically, a major part of that letting go process entails being triggered by everyday interactions such as we've had the opportunity to witness at this thread, between the two main players (recently I mean, & not counting myself; for me it was a bit like watching two parents who can barely stand the sight of each other going at it; there was no way I was going to intervene). Intimate sexual relationships are, IMO, by far the best "crucible' for "deprogramming" available to us. (No wonder Cohen never married?) Best, but not the only way.

Hypnosis and deliberate deprogramming I think always entail the risk, maybe even the inevitability, of contaminating the therapeutic process with intention, even when the intention is to heal and become whole. Memories surface that may or may not be mixed with fantasy; a new program of beliefs instantly fills the vacuum left by the old set being removed, which of course is how cults work. We do anything not to feel powerless. So trying to direct our own healing and/or putting it in the hands of someone else is always risky in this regard. It seems a mistake to attempt it with anyone who is not significantly more whole than we are, but how to know this; and if we are fortunate enough to find someone who fits the bill (as I have been), how not to then become dependent upon them for our wholeness?

Those are my initial thoughts anyway.

By the way, the Sinead O' Conner suicide attempt thread seems somewhat connected to this one
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby guruilla » Sun Nov 29, 2015 8:23 pm

Info added to facts timeline:

Fact: In 1944, Cohen started attending summer camp as a 10-year-old at Camp Hiawatha in the Laurentians region north of Montreal.

Fact: In 1950, Cohen became a counselor at Camp Sunshine, a Jewish community camp.

http://www.summercampculture.com/famous ... -musician/

Cohen at Pripstein Camp:

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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby lunarmoth » Sun Nov 29, 2015 8:26 pm

Brekin, I retract my apology. You'll be astonished to hear I agree with guruilla. To me, it's almost as though you came here for the sole purpose of discrediting the thread, while trying to draw us into putting all our cards on the table so you don't have to work too hard at information gathering. It's like your here to suck our energy, not contribute, and I have no intention of enabling you. The more arguments you put forward to debunk our points, the more you end up reinforcing them in our minds. So why not move on?

I'm done proving my case here, not because I've run out of material - there is always more.

Hypnotism was one of the eccentric fields - like handwriting analysis and numerology and herbal medicine - that the CIA was interested in. Along with psychotropic drugs, it's probably the most powerful Mind control method there is.

More on this a bit later
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby Joao » Sun Nov 29, 2015 8:28 pm

Everything brekin has written in this thread has been absolutely dead on. Cheers for having the energy to engage and question.
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby guruilla » Sun Nov 29, 2015 8:44 pm

Joao » Sun Nov 29, 2015 8:28 pm wrote:Everything brekin has written in this thread has been absolutely dead on. Cheers for having the energy to engage and question.

Does that come with a shiny apple? :moresarcasm

I'll extend brekin's invite to you: out of the thousands of words brekin has written at this thread (every last one of which has been dead-on), can you single out the one thing he wrote that's most dead-on? If you can, then I will address that.
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