Don't You Miss When This Was Just CT Paranoia?

[American Dream]

Sounder, I never said whether the quote you you extracted was true, false, or any combination thereof. More important I think would be the question of what it might mean, in term of the big picture.

Anyway, I'm not going to go there now. Instead, I'm going to take a deep breath, relax, and do something else. I wish you well.

[monster]

[Nordic]

Thanks Alice. Great stuff. That's the first time I've ever seen an explanation of any of this that make a lick of sense.

I'm about as confounded as that General.

How did they get such power over the U.S. so quickly?

I suppose if anyone actually found these things out, it wouldn't be very healthy for them.

I find it to be quite possibly the most ironic thing in recent history that the victims of fascism have turned out to create a state which is quite possibly the most fascistic and dangerous state on planet earth.

Some sort of "you become your enemy" type of thing going on?

[8bitagent]

I don't have a clue about this to be honest but I've heard (and you're going to avalanche me with "that's bullshit") that the state of Israel was planned during WWI by British Foreign Secretary (and previously PM) Lord Balfour. Not out of any sympathy with the Jewish people, but simply as a bone of contention with which to keep the Middle East in a constant state of turmoil, thus feeding the military industrial complex. The quote is something like a "a little Ulster in the middle east" but I can't find it on google. It certainly worked well in Ireland: move in a bunch of outsiders and give them land that belonged to other people and then sit back safe in the knowledge that you can infiltrate both sides and keep your army veteran for little more than the cost of a well equipped green standing army. Following this line of reasoning (I already said that it's probably bullshit) arms manufacturers are the only winners. I just kinda heard it once a long time ago. I would like to take this opportunity to point out that I love all human beings. Nobody should be fighting except against tyranny.

So clear Israel is part of the eschatological end time obsession with these guys.

I myself have no doubt that the same occult global elite who engineered both world wars and puppeteered the Nazis wanted Israel created in order to create a never ending wedge in the Muslim world post Ottoman empire...not as a love for the Jewish people. In fact the fall of the Ottoman to modern day, it's clear "modern radical militant Islam" is a globalist imperial creation...be it the Muslim Brotherhood, the governments of Saudi Arabia and Egypt, or al Qaeda.

Jews, Romas, Palestinians, Kurds, etc. right now would all have their own peaceful states if it wasn't for the elites hell bent on orchestrating unending hatred and control.
sovereign state

[8bitagent]

OK, but Searcher what do you think of David Icke's view of things?

I know what my view of him is: visionary. I used to laugh at the mere mention of him, but way too much information has come to light to back up so much of what he's been saying. In fact while I can't take more than a few minutes of the Alex Jones show, I specifically tuned in a couple weeks ago just to hear Icke give his take on things.

People call him a quack, disinfo, a lunatic, anti-Semitic...I guess I don't see why people are upset with him. His view on things I think is smack on.

[8bitagent]

I personally believe that the "World Jewish Conspiracy" writers are having a very negative effect on all of us, on all our righteous and legitimate struggles.

In fact, I would say that the anti-Semitic conspiracy stuff is a recurring theme on some of the most reactionary, misguided and/or disinformational conspiracy sites out there.

So it's important to all of us to be clear on this.

I thought the meme was that "Satanic rich old white Europeans controlled the world" and that anti Semitism is a tool of the "nwo" to push racism and hatred? Least that's been my take over the last decade of deep political research.

[AlicetheKurious]

I find it to be quite possibly the most ironic thing in recent history that the victims of fascism have turned out to create a state which is quite possibly the most fascistic and dangerous state on planet earth.

Some sort of "you become your enemy" type of thing going on?

The theme that the creators of zionism and the zionist state were ever the "victims of fascism", let alone represent them in any way, is part of the epic scam. The zionists not only openly and strongly identified with the European fascists, they collaborated with them, as Lenni Brenner has so meticulously documented in his seminal work 51 Documents: Zionist Collaboration with the Nazis.

Ironically, in view of the "Cannibalism" thread, the zionists have always viewed and treated Jewish people as meat: warm bodies to carry out the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians and to colonize the land, to act as their foot soldiers and spies, to divert funds and drum up political support for their "shitty little state", and even to act as human guinea pigs (and here, and of course here) all out of a deliberately and expertly-induced belief that the zionists are the protectors, rather than oppressors, cynical exploiters and mortal enemies of the Jews. It is telling, not only that zionists and the zionist project have been and continue to be the prime, perhaps even the only, beneficiaries of Jewish persecution, including the Nazi Holocaust, but that few have dared to expose this under-examined fact (with the notable exception of very brave individuals like Norman G. Finkelstein).

In order to accomplish this, they've used two of the most potent human motivators: a toxic combination of paranoia and the atavistic tribal urge to conquer and dominate others. On a personal note, I'll never forget how, many years ago, having just seen the photos and listened to the testimony of two American reporters who had witnessed and documented the carnage of Sabra and Shatilla, I suffered a mini-emotional breakdown.

The one who comforted me, ironically, was a Jewish friend who'd grown up in Lebanon. He took me to a Lebanese restaurant, where over fattoush, kebbe and hommos, we had a long talk. I'll never forget his confession that, despite his wonderful memories of a childhood spent in the Lebanese mountains among good friends, at the moment Israel launched its devastating invasion of that country, he felt a powerful surge of triumphalism, almost exultation, an irrational, bloodthirsty tribal emotion that wiped out everything else. He got over it, but it was frightening to him to discover that he harbored such a beast inside him.

It's dangerous for us to ignore the fact that this beast lives inside all of us, and that fascists in particular are experts at unleashing and channeling it with devastating results. Inducing paranoia and a sense of transcendent victimhood is the single most effective way to neutralize any sense of the guilt that would normally mitigate or rein in such feelings in a healthy person, something that the zionists understand all too well and have used with deadly effect.

...I've heard ... that the state of Israel was planned during WWI by British Foreign Secretary (and previously PM) Lord Balfour. Not out of any sympathy with the Jewish people, but simply as a bone of contention with which to keep the Middle East in a constant state of turmoil, thus feeding the military industrial complex.

The zionist state was planned much earlier than that. During the first half of the 19th century, Lord Baron Benjamin (Edmond James) de Rothschild and other Jewish financiers began to purchase tracts of land, mainly from absentee Turkish landlords, and paid for the transfer of Jews to live and work on that land. The zionist project appeared to be headed for certain failure, however, since the amount of land that could be purchased was very limited, on the one hand, and very few Jews (with the exception of mostly destitute eastern Europeans) were interested in leaving their homes in exchange for the hardships of colonizing a strange land.

This all changed, dramatically so, with the rise of the Nazis and the subsequent genocides in Europe. Middle Eastern Jewish communities, however, who were for the most part highly prosperous and deeply rooted in their homelands, remained unimpressed with the zionists' exhortations to emigrate until a sudden surge of anti-semitic bombings and other attacks convinced many of them to leave. At least some of these attacks were later found to have been the work of zionist agents provocateurs.

The question of whether European imperialists initiated the zionist project as a means to enforce their will on the oil-rich Middle East, or whether it was the zionists who exploited European and American imperial greed for their own ends, is a crucial one for understanding the history of the zionist state and where it is headed.

It is my opinion that the zionist project was deliberately and misleadingly packaged as a brilliant opportunity, not to be missed, for Europeans (and later Americans) to "own" a colonial outpost at the heart of this vital region. It was sold as such, first to the Turks and the British, then even the Nazis, then the Russians, then the French and eventually to the Americans. With the questionable exception of the Americans, each empire in turn eventually learned that while the zionists are happy to take any help they can get, their true long-term ambitions are neither subservient to, nor even compatible with, European or American imperial goals.

I believe that what we have witnessed so far are merely the first two overlapping and ongoing phases of the zionist project, with the third and final phase rapidly approaching. The success of the two initial phases, setting up the state, acquiring political legitimacy, building up a powerful aggressive military capability and recruiting colonists to populate the land and man the army, have heavily relied and continue to rely on the support of a succession of willing and sometimes even unwilling imperial sponsors.

All this, in my view, is merely the foundation for the third phase, in which Israel will emerge as a global superpower in its own right, not only independent from, but in mortal competition with, the other superpowers. This may strike many people as a laughably inconceivable scenario, yet it is hardly less conceivable that the zionist project to set up a Jewish state in Palestine was, during its unimpressive first stage back in the 19th century.

Much of the groundwork has been laid already with the emergence of Israel as the regional military superpower, with a force greater than that of all other states in the region combined, not to mention the only one with an offensive nuclear capability. Moreover, since its inception, the zionist project has never acted in a way calculated to lead to peaceful coexistence with other states in the region; on the contrary, it has been consistently aggressive, rapacious and brutal in its dealings with its neighbors, confident in the support of its imperial sponsors to ensure Israel's impunity and immunity from any backlash.

It's highly revealing that the ink was hardly dry on the U.S.-brokered so-called "peace agreement" (essentially masterminded by Henry Kissinger), which effectively neutralized Egypt's crucial role in the Arab front, when Israel launched two devastating and bloody invasions of Lebanon, bombed Iraq's French-built nuclear energy reactor, officially annexed the Golan Heights and began massive settlement building throughout the Palestinian occupied territories. In return, Egypt got back a demilitarized and unprotected Sinai which, according to Israeli strategists can be easily re-occupied within hours by the Israelis. Also, the Egyptian economy, military and social institutions were opened up to American and Israeli influence, with shattering results.

As outlined in both "neocon" blueprints, the Project for a New American Century and A Clean Break, and the much earlier A Strategy for Israel in the 1980s by Oded Yinon, Israel's current priority is to pursue a parallel plan to effect the fragmentation and dissolution of all states in the region into weak, mutually hostile ethnic enclaves while simultaneously building up Israel's military capabilities even further, and acquiring and consolidating Israeli control over the region's strategic resources. A cursory examination of Israel's recent international "pipeline agreements" with various states, notably its deep and intriguing ties with certain elements in Turkey, and its activities in Africa, indicates that Israeli ambitions far exceed the satisfying of its own immediate needs for oil and water. Instead, it would reveal a clear pattern of strategically positioning itself to control access to these vital resources by other countries in the Middle East, Asia and even Europe, granting it the leverage to dominate entire continents.

In this vein, A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm, is incredibly revealing. Though it was written by American neocons, the "realm" in question is not the U.S., but Israel. The central purpose of the paper is to outline how Israel can unshackle itself from dependence on the United States and emerge as a global superpower in its own right:

This neo-conservative-authored paper presented in 1996 to the then Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu offered a bold strategy to provide "the nation [Israel] the room to engage every possible energy in rebuilding Zionism", and strengthen and increase its influence in the Middle East. "Our claim to the land - to which we have clung for hope for 2000 years - is legitimate and noble," the authors proclaimed. "Israel will not only contain its foes; it will transcend them" through means including "reestablishing the principle of preemption, rather than retaliation alone".

The paper emphasized that Israel needed to enhance its strategic position independent of the US, in order to deny the US any leverage it may want to exercise on Israel to maintain stability in the region under the "peace process". The paper betrays a high degree of discomfort regarding US influence over Israel and suggests ways to actively neutralize it. What is most surprising are the names of its authors that comprise past and present US civilian policy-makers, including ex-chairman of the Defense Policy Board Richard Perle, present Under Secretary of Defense Douglas Feith, and Vice President Dick Cheney's adviser for Middle East Affairs, David Wurmser. How individuals with such openly stated positions preferring Israeli interests over those of the US became influential members of the US government is quite mystifying.

The paper bemoans the status quo where Israel is asked to follow European and American prescriptions for peace and stability, and proposes that a key ingredient of the "US-Israeli partnership" must be "mutuality" and that Israel must position itself to be the protector of the "West's security" in the Middle East rather than being a junior partner. Such strategic co-dependence, specifically between Israel and the US, and to a general degree between Israel and Western powers, would imply dismissing the strategic status quo. Thus, to achieve a "clean break", the security map of the Middle East would have to be significantly re-built to assign Israel an apex role, rather than being just a party to territorial disputes with its neighbors and being treated as another ally, albeit a strong one, along with Washington's oil-allies in the region.

The removal of Saddam Hussein, enunciated to be a key goal in "Clean Break", was to be the first phase of this new strategy of independence through co-dependence. As has been discussed earlier (see Asia Times Online, All going according to plan? , May 12), under the pretext of regime change, the US quite intentionally annihilated the Iraqi state and its military forces, the largest in the Arab world. ...

The strategic space created from the ruins of the Iraqi state and its pillars offers immense opportunities by employing persecuted minorities as proxies that can provide a strong foothold in a pivotal oil-rich nation hundreds of miles away from Israel. Furthermore, the Kurdish beachhead in Iraq would serve to project influence in key adversaries such as Iran and Syria.

In "A Clean Break", the authors called for signaling to the Syrians that their "territory is not immune" to attacks "by Israeli proxy forces". Kurdish unrest in Syria has been quite rare. In early March of this year, northeastern Syria broke out in violent protests that eventually reached the capital Damascus. The Syrians were caught completely off guard. The riots lasted for days and left scores of people dead before being brought under control.
...

Without engaging its military directly, the Israelis have made themselves a major power-broker in the region and a party to internal stability of important regional states.

...By ramping up armed proxies devoted to a crypto-secessionist struggle and leaking its support for them, Israel has delivered a masterstroke of strategic foresight. It clearly knows that the creation of a Kurdish republic in Iraq, let alone a greater Kurdistan, is not viable for several reasons.
...

Nevertheless, by its plausibly deniable support for Kurdish militias, Israel has declared to the regional power centers that it is an indispensable power broker in the future stability of the greater Middle East. ...

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/FF30Ak07.html

That being said, what I've described is what I believe to be zionist ambitions for a coming "third phase". However, I also believe that, notwithstanding the hubris of influential zionist planners, given current realities, the overreaching ambitions underlying the "Clean Break" document, like those revealed by the Oded Yinon document of the early 1980s, are at the very least premature.

Far be it from me, given their record, to underestimate the ability of zionists to implement even the craziest scenarios -- it's just that they also have a tendency to underestimate the power and determination of the resistance to their machinations. So far, the balance of power has clearly been on their side but in view of recent developments, perhaps time is not.

[JackRiddler]

.

What a clash of well-conceived, empirically grounded worldviews, something to whet the appetite of the wandering JREFer looking to satisfy his or her confirmation bias about conspiracy theorists. Not that I care what they'll say, but in this case they'd be right.

Nordic, who despite having 1735 posts here (an indicator that he's probably checked out various 9/11 speculations at some point in the last 8 years), says he never before ran into the case that Mossad did 9/11 as an attack that completely surprised the Bush regime (because they hate us for our freedoms!).

As he witnesses the brilliance on display in this thread, he breathlessly awaits to see if it turns out that all wars, diseases and perversions are planned decades in advance by the long-fanged Jews who bounce the basically retarded Goyim capitalists and generals around at will, as Alice Prof. Cutandpastefromstormfronttheorydepartment has shown (undeterred by my pathetic debunkings).

Or is the course of evil set even centuries more in advance by the extraterrestrial, human-flesh-eating reptilians whose shapeshifting infiltrators are currently posing as most of the members of the human power elite, as David Icke discovered and the One Dollar Agent (eight bits is a dollar in early 20th C. slang) has passionately averred? (Surely the big twist of this thread was that Chomsky's readers "viscerally" bother 8bit more than Glenn Beck's viewers. Had me pinned to my seat, I tell you.)

Personally, I'm going with the lizards, because this movie



was way better (and in fact metaphorically truthful)

than this one:



Also, because I find it easy to believe 8bit is some guy in California who has been shunned by liberal college students there, exactly as he claims, and I'm finding it harder to buy into "Alice" at all.

[norton ash]

cutandpastefromstormfront amounts to essentially an ad hominem on Alice, JackRiddler.

I have no dog in this fight, and I respect all the contributors. It's just more information and fuel for my internal debate.

Yeats said argument with others makes rhetoric, but argument with one's self makes poetry.

Follow the person who seeks truth, beware the person who claims to have found it...

I love to read here, but the pissing matches get tiresome.

[AlicetheKurious]

Oh, shut up. Talk about confirmation bias -- I seem to have pushed all your buttons, activating an impregnable shield over your mind. Too bad for you.

You're right about one thing: your "debunkings" are indeed "pathetic".

Have fun kicking the sh*t out of that straw man.

On edit: I didn't mean you, norton -- we cross-posted. I meant Jack, obviously.

[Nordic]

.

What a clash of well-conceived, empirically grounded worldviews, something to whet the appetite of the wandering JREFer looking to satisfy his or her confirmation bias about conspiracy theorists. Not that I care what they'll say, but in this case they'd be right.

Nordic, who despite having 1735 posts here (an indicator that he's probably checked out various 9/11 speculations at some point in the last 8 years), says he never before ran into the case that Mossad did 9/11 as an attack that completely surprised the Bush regime (because they hate us for our freedoms!).

As he witnesses the brilliance on display in this thread, he breathlessly awaits to see if it turns out that all wars, diseases and perversions are planned decades in advance by the long-fanged Jews who bounce the basically retarded Goyim capitalists and generals around at will, as Alice Prof. Cutandpastefromstormfronttheorydepartment has shown (undeterred by my pathetic debunkings).

Wow, what a pathetic and desperate attempt to put words into my mouth and thoughts into my head.

You're even a bigger asshole than you've shown in the past.

Nice transparent display of your true self, there, pal.

Wow.

[JackRiddler]

o i am slain

[JackRiddler]

cutandpastefromstormfront amounts to essentially an ad hominem on Alice, JackRiddler.

I didn't say that. Please quote accurately.

Follow the person who seeks truth, beware the person who claims to have found it...

I love to read here, but the pissing matches get tiresome.

Both of these statements have nominal truth, in context both amount to a capitulation: nothing can be known, so no one should be too passionate about whether a given statement is true.

[8bitagent]

Or is the course of evil set even centuries more in advance by the extraterrestrial, human-flesh-eating reptilians whose shapeshifting infiltrators are currently posing as most of the members of the human power elite, as David Icke discovered and the One Dollar Agent (eight bits is a dollar in early 20th C. slang) has passionately averred? (Surely the big twist of this thread was that Chomsky's readers "viscerally" bother 8bit more than Glenn Beck's viewers. Had me pinned to my seat, I tell you.)

Also, because I find it easy to believe 8bit is some guy in California who has been shunned by liberal college students there, exactly as he claims, and I'm finding it harder to buy into "Alice" at all.

Well I remember studying the how the Nazis greatly used the "Jews, Communists and Freemasons control the world" propaganda years ago
and how "hip" anti Semitism still is in the Muslim world. "Look at Israeli duel citizenship in the Bush cabinet, look at Goldman Sachs...Jew Jew Jew Jew Jew" seems to be the language I see on some "conspiracy" sties.

Isn't it more likely that every race, class and religious group is manipulated? How easy is it to pit Jews vs Muslims vs Hindus vs Christians? Right now there remains the ever omnipresent Pakistan and Indian animosity that could explode anytime...as well as the Persian Shiite Iran wanting to attack Pakistan for the recent spate of Jundullah terror bombings.

I don't believe at all in some Reptillian pet theory as Icke asserts(as much as I do like a lot of what he says) or the notion that theres Reptillian aliens posing as humans.

What I have said is that from the ancient world to John Dee Elizabethian times, to the Nazis and many contemporary America and Britain, world leaders are often guided by the esoteric. I used to laugh at such a notion, but the occult agenda is as apparent to whats been going on as South Central LA gang graffiti at a crime scene.

I believe anti Semitism, bigotry toward homosexuals, racism and the sort of hatred that leads to tribal slaughters in Africa is all part of a divide and conquer strategy. The point long ago was to coopt the "visible" heads of world Jewry to give this perception of nefarious goings on(ie: all the shenanigans both Israel and Arab states have been up to)
Quite personally I believe many of the governments of the Middle East are evil, from Saudi Arabia and Egypt to Israel and in between.

And when it comes to scorn I've gained from self described leftists, it's not for any outlandish ideas...it comes from simply "going too far" in questioning if 9/11 was more than "blowback and incompetence" and what the implications of that mean. Leftists will talk about the lies that got us into Iraq, the Bush torture, coverups...but even bringing up 9/11 8 years later seems taboo. And for a time, even questioning if the US should have been in Afghanistan was a room clearer.

This is what Im talking about, issues that seem to blur the left and right.
Where the left, who talks a good game about the IMF/World Bank/WTO should be aware of the overall insidious nature of it all. These are often the types that denounce people as myself for talking about a "globalist agenda" or "elite cabals"...as if somehow we are right wing nutjobs.

[IanEye]

As for "America manipulating the religious right", you're ignoring the fact that the religious right only became such a powerful force in American politics after the Likud was elected to power in Israel in 1977. The Likud, under the leadership of Menachem Begin, immediately executed a plan to transform the then disorganized, fragmented, politically weak religious right in the U.S. into a powerful weapon in Israel's hands.

Any individual who falls for the bullshit above is an idiot.