Don't You Miss When This Was Just CT Paranoia?

[Sounder]

That is worth lots more than twenty seven cents, thank you for saying that so well.

I bowed out because I did not respond well from the get go, but I don't accept that Alice or other critics are producing "anti-Semitic Theory'.

I passed on supporting Jack on his valid point barely visible through his emotional fog, that Zionism is not as big a player as both proponents and opponents make it out to be, but they are big players.

Thanks C2W? for curing this.

[Nordic]

I'm just trying to figure out why and how the Cuban exiles have such a bizarre and perverse and unexplainable hold upon the United States.

Castro has been the only one to offer up an explanation that makes sense.

I'm not saying I buy it 100% but it sure is interesting.

Nobody else has been able to explain it. { Surely not! }

Unless -- I know! -- they really are Freedom's Chosen People.

At least my anti-Commie wingnut (and racist and formerly anti-Latino) stepmom thinks so. Then again she hopes they're all killed off in the new Bay of Pigs invasion, when the Socialists are overthrown, and she and her ilk get parcels of Cuban coast and the rest of them rot or burn back in the crowded cities, or whatever they're supposed to do.

What's your point? I like Castro.

And they're hardly transferrable. And if you really want to bring this up, it's pretty freaking obvious why the corrupt aspect of the U.S. government keeps close ties with Cuban exiles. I mean, that's quite clear.

What has never been clear, as I keep saying to you, and which you have utterly failed to address, is why Israel has such a unique and seemingly inexplicable stranglehold on U.S. politicians and their agenda.

All the other players, Big Oil, MIC, IMF, World Bank, The Fed, the corporatocracy in general, well, it's all pretty easily discovered.

But Israel? Nobody even wants to talk about it. YOU certainly do not.

As soon as we try to talk about it, you grow hysterical and the charges of anti-semitism start flying about.

Which is what happens everywhere one tries to discuss this.

And then everybody starts focusing on YOUR arguments and YOUR bullshit rather than on the big picture. You even started another thread to derail this one. Nice job!

[American Dream]

So Nordic, what's your take on the "World Jewish Conspiracy"?

[AlicetheKurious]

What's your point? I like Castro.

I don't get it either. I like Castro too. Don't care much for his enemies, though.

[Nordic]

What's my take on it?

I've made my positions pretty clear here, IMO.

I try to avoid falling into any label-based traps, and one thing I like about this board is that most people here don't, either.

Yet when it comes to this particular issue, suddenly the usual attachments and prejudices start coming out, in ways that are pretty ugly, and like I've said, hysterical.

I'm just trying to figure the world out. I don't really give a flying crap about past "conspiracy theories" only as how they relate to reality, former uses of propaganda, acts of agent provateurism, and the like.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the one thing with the United States that is really difficult to figure out is WHY it supports Israel the way it does.

Israel is the greatest threat to world peace. Israel is small and has no natural resources. Support of Israel creates massive problems for us, SEEMINLGY, in the Middle East, and honestly it's about the only thing in the world that enjoys blind and utterly bipartisan support in our political arena.

You can't find Dems or Repubs who will publicy question, ever, our support of anything Israel does. Israel is ACTUALLY doing the metaphorical "nailing kittens to church doors" and nobody in the American political arena will come out and say ANYTHING against these crimes.

So why is that?

They say it's because Israel is our "ally" and Israel is "the only Democracy in the middle east" and all that kind of crap, but we know that's crap because the United States always overthrows (or tries to) Democracies that it doesn't like. Democracy doesn't mean jack shit to the United States. Nor does having an "ally", we'll betray an ally in a NY minute if there's an opportunistic reason to.

When I ask any of these questions here in America it gets me instantly dog-piled upon as an "antisemite" and nobody answers the question. Nobody wants to talk about it.

Some people suggest that it's because of the Cold War, but the Cold War is over. Some people suggest it's because Israel and the U.S. share intelligence, and is a nexus of black ops arms dealing for the United States. Well that doesn't explain it either, because Turkey has been the nexus of those things, and many others, for a long time and will continue to be so.

So what is it? Why is Obama's chief of staff AND one of the top agents in Hollywood brothers, and basically Israelis? Why is Joe Lieberman more loyal to Israel than to his own country? Why are so MANY in the United States seemingly more loyal to Israel than to the United States? How did this happen, and what is behind it?

I don't have a dog in the "Jewish World Conspiracy" fight, I've formerly thought that such notions were, in fact, based on anti-semitism, because I was brought up to think that Israel was a shining beacon of Democracy in the Middle East, and that all of those who opposed her were dirty hairy arab terrorists (not kidding! that's how I was brought up here in the U.S.). Personified by that hairy ugly little Yasser Arafat.

Only recently have I noticed that it ain't quite that way. Rachel Corrie had a big impact on me, honestly, especially when I saw the photos of what happened there, and when I saw the reaction with right-wingers to her murder here in the U.S. Wow.

And of course, Israel's incursion into Lebanon really made it clear, as to who's the Bad Guy in this situation. And the American response to it.

Have you seen the videos of Israelis in Israel, and how racist they are? Doesn't it remind you of anything? I.e. Germany prior to WWII? The Israelis have managed to create a fascist state not unlike the state of Germany, and I want to know how they got away with it, why it's still there, and how they are getting more powerful and why America blindly supports them.

What I see is that somehow the Israelis have American politicians under some kind of blackmail. It's the only thing that makes sense.

Seeing how James Bamford has come out and pointed out that the companies that are actually tapping all our phones and reading all our e-mails are Israeli owned companies with ties to the Israel government, well, gee, that sort of fits right into the picture.

It seems that long term America would be best served by detaching from Israel and throwing her to the wolves. I mean, if you're talking Realpolitik here, the ruthless business of international relations. But it doesn't. Why?

Israel should be forced to sink or swim on its own at this point.

I seriously think Israel is a rogue state, and is the greatest threat to world peace on the planet.

I do not come about this through anti-semitism or even an acknowledgement that the people running it are Jewish. It's just how it is. I don't give a crap that they're Jewish. They're a dangerous state and they should not get the blind support of my country, or anybody else for that matter. They're bad news and need to be dealt with accordingly.

[American Dream]

But Nordic, I'm still not clear what your positiion is on the putative World Jewish Conspiracy...

[Nordic]

What's my take on it?

I've made my positions pretty clear here, IMO.

I try to avoid falling into any label-based traps, and one thing I like about this board is that most people here don't, either.

Yet when it comes to this particular issue, suddenly the usual attachments and prejudices start coming out, in ways that are pretty ugly, and like I've said, hysterical.

I'm just trying to figure the world out. I don't really give a flying crap about past "conspiracy theories" only as how they relate to reality, former uses of propaganda, acts of agent provateurism, and the like.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the one thing with the United States that is really difficult to figure out is WHY it supports Israel the way it does.

Israel is the greatest threat to world peace. Israel is small and has no natural resources. Support of Israel creates massive problems for us, SEEMINLGY, in the Middle East, and honestly it's about the only thing in the world that enjoys blind and utterly bipartisan support in our political arena.

Name one other thing that enjoys BIPARTISAN support to this level.

You can't find Dems or Repubs who will publicy question, ever, our support of anything Israel does. Israel is ACTUALLY doing the metaphorical "nailing kittens to church doors" and nobody in the American political arena will come out and say ANYTHING against these crimes.

So why is that?

They say it's because Israel is our "ally" and Israel is "the only Democracy in the middle east" and all that kind of crap, but we know that's crap because the United States always overthrows (or tries to) Democracies that it doesn't like. Democracy doesn't mean jack shit to the United States. Nor does having an "ally", we'll betray an ally in a NY minute if there's an opportunistic reason to.

When I ask any of these questions here in America it gets me instantly dog-piled upon as an "antisemite" and nobody answers the question. Nobody wants to talk about it.

Some people suggest that it's because of the Cold War, but the Cold War is over. Some people suggest it's because Israel and the U.S. share intelligence, and is a nexus of black ops arms dealing for the United States. Well that doesn't explain it either, because Turkey has been the nexus of those things, and many others, for a long time and will continue to be so.

So what is it? Why is Obama's chief of staff AND one of the top agents in Hollywood brothers, and basically Israelis? Why is Joe Lieberman more loyal to Israel than to his own country? Why are so MANY in the United States seemingly more loyal to Israel than to the United States? How did this happen, and what is behind it?

I don't have a dog in the "Jewish World Conspiracy" fight, I've formerly thought that such notions were, in fact, based on anti-semitism, because I was brought up to think that Israel was a shining beacon of Democracy in the Middle East, and that all of those who opposed her were dirty hairy arab terrorists (not kidding! that's how I was brought up here in the U.S.). Personified by that hairy ugly little Yasser Arafat.

Only recently have I noticed that it ain't quite that way. Rachel Corrie had a big impact on me, honestly, especially when I saw the photos of what happened there, and when I saw the reaction with right-wingers to her murder here in the U.S. Wow.

And of course, Israel's incursion into Lebanon really made it clear, as to who's the Bad Guy in this situation. And the American response to it.

Have you seen the videos of Israelis in Israel, and how racist they are? Doesn't it remind you of anything? I.e. Germany prior to WWII? The Israelis have managed to create a fascist state not unlike the state of Germany, and I want to know how they got away with it, why it's still there, and how they are getting more powerful and why America blindly supports them.

What I see is that somehow the Israelis have American politicians under some kind of blackmail. It's the only thing that makes sense.

Seeing how James Bamford has come out and pointed out that the companies that are actually tapping all our phones and reading all our e-mails are Israeli owned companies with ties to the Israel government, well, gee, that sort of fits right into the picture.

It seems that long term America would be best served by detaching from Israel and throwing her to the wolves. I mean, if you're talking Realpolitik here, the ruthless business of international relations. But it doesn't. Why?

Israel should be forced to sink or swim on its own at this point.

I seriously think Israel is a rogue state, and is the greatest threat to world peace on the planet.

I do not come about this through anti-semitism or even an acknowledgement that the people running it are Jewish. It's just how it is. I don't give a crap that they're Jewish. They're a dangerous state and they should not get the blind support of my country, or anybody else for that matter. They're bad news and need to be dealt with accordingly.

And based on the level of evil I've seen Israel sink to, I can't help but wonder (keep in mind I'm using the word "wonder") as to how much agent provaceurism there is involved in, say, Stormfront, or even supposed "terrorist attacks" on Israel. Israel's propaganda machine is unsurpassed, at least in this country, and we happen to know for a fact that they literally hire internet warriors to go on blogs and support Israel's positions. I doubt they're here, that would be quite the waste of time considering the small audience this place has, but you can bet they're at the big "liberal" blogs, because, well, they've been outed on this.

Were they behind 9/11? I don't know, but it sure looks like they might have been. I have a hard time thinking they were alone behind it, because it seems like a truly international collaboration, but then again if it was Israel and the United States, helped by Saudi Arabia, and the Pakistanis, well, that's sorta how it appears to be at this point.

That's my guess at this juncture. But what do I "know"? Not much!

I do know that it's impossible to discuss here in the U.S., and that seems to be by design. There's always the "you're being antisemitic" thing that comes out, along with "but the Holocaust, the Jews have been so persecuted, they deserve this ..." and my personal favorite "What else would you have Israel do?"

All of this is obviously orchestrated, a noise machine. They don't want us to talk about it, because if one does talk about it, one quickly becomes aware of who's the bad guy here.

Now I thoroughly expect someone to respond to this with the usual strawman "so you're saying there AREN'T muslim terrorists"?

Just wait. And I'm sure I'll think of a few more cliche strawman responses here any minute. I'll try to add them if I have time.

[American Dream]

But Nordic, it's still not clear what your position is on the putative World Jewish Conspiracy...

[Nordic]

Well you're either being facetious or I have no idea what you're actually talking about ....

[American Dream]

I'm not being facetious at all. Jack has worked on many pages of late, advancing a critique of the position that a Zionist/Jewish cabal is, or will be soon, the primary power on the planet.

I've been asking what you think about that sort of conspiracy model.

[AlienSpaceBat]

I understood what Nordic was saying, and it answered the repeated question as far as I can see.

On the general point though:

Isn't it the case that Israel is a singular state ? In its international relations, most particularly with the US ? In its reason for creation, and its claim to land that others lived and live on ? In its disregard of international law and UN resolutions ? Its unique position as the only known undeclared and unchallenged nuclear power ? In its organised propaganda, and the number of unquestioning allies it seems to have in the corridors of power throughout North America and Europe ? In its bellicosity and blatant disregard for the human rights, or suffering, of others ? (and much much more ...)

Given that Israel is so singular, it seems obvious to me why it is focussed upon so intently, or, as some allege, singled out.

Given that there is a well known ideological basis for the push to establish and expand the state of Israel, why is it so difficult to examine the question of whether zionism and zionists are the prime movers in bringing about Israel's singular status ?

The accusations of anti-semitism come up so quickly, and so often.

Saying that anti-zionism=anti-semitism makes no sense to me.

What this thread has turned into makes no sense either.

[American Dream]

So Nordic does basically endorse a World Jewish/Zionist Conspiracy model, ala Alice?

[Nordic]

So Nordic does basically endorse a World Jewish/Zionist Conspiracy model, ala Alice?

Short answer: No.

But I could. In the future. If I find enough evidence to support it.

I have this thing called an "open mind". Maybe I'm just lucky.

I think she has a great point of view, she's extremely well informed, brilliantly so, even, and she's an incredible writer, one of the absolute best here.

But, for example, do I see Israel as being the "only beneficiary" of U.S. military in the middle east? No. But give her the benefit of hyperbole. I use hyperbole all the time, and so does pretty much everybody else. But Alice, because of what she talks about, seems to be sujbect to a double standard, extreme scrutiiny of every word she says by people seemingly desperate to find an inaccuracy anywhere.

[Jeff]

Short answer: No.

But I could. In the future. If I find enough evidence to support it.

Well allow me be unequivocal here. If that happens, you won't be posting here any longer, because World Jewish Conspiracy is not a welcome paradigm on this board. I have disagreements with Alice, but I don't believe that accurately describes her perspective. Although I can see - I have seen - how her posts can give comfort and cover to authentic anti-semites. Alice isn't necessarily at fault for that; it's just that it's my job to listen for the Horst-Wessel-Lied.

I have this thing called an "open mind". Maybe I'm just lucky.

Enjoy responsibly.

[Nordic]

Short answer: No.

But I could. In the future. If I find enough evidence to support it.

Well allow me be unequivocal here. If that happens, you won't be posting here any longer, because World Jewish Conspiracy is not a welcome paradigm on this board. I have disagreements with Alice, but I don't believe that accurately describes her perspective. Although I can see - I have seen - how it gives comfort and cover to genuine anti-semites.

I have this thing called an "open mind". Maybe I'm just lucky.

Enjoy responsibly.

Uh .... okay. I have to say that I don't even know what it means, then. Obviously Alice hasn't been banned yet, and I don't even agree with her 100%.

Could someone clear me up as to the CONNOTATIONS behind this World Jewish Conspiracy?

I was taking it literally. Whatever the connotations are, I am ignorant of them.