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Re: Are you broke?

Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 5:24 pm
by brekin
Dr. Evil wrote:
Religion is considered a private matter and not something you talk about (generally speaking).
slimmouse wrote:

Religion is Dogma, lets talk spirituality?

Its an important distinction.
Right. Because spirituality contains no dogma?
I would even say most people's "spirituality" is just a private religion with themselves as the authority.
Their entire authority being based on and endorsing what they prefer and like to believe, cherry picked out of the supermarket of ideas.
Which, fine, if that is the case of the matter.
But we shouldn't pretend that spirituality (even with a lowercase "c") is some safe zone outside or overlapping, big hairy collectivist Religion.
Spirituality is not the poor man's Religion, but the rich man's.

Seeing myself being pulled into a bull session on spirituality vs. religion, in a poverty thread no less.

Image

Re: Are you broke?

Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 5:24 pm
by slimmouse
Indeed we are Doc. We are firmly entrenched within what is generally understood by intelligent people to be essentially an electromagnetic illusion.

David Copperfield on acid.

Whose big Idea was that ?

You see we can argue about the origins till we are blue in the face, but it won't change the fact bolded above

Re: Are you broke?

Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 5:25 pm
by Sounder
Funny. Why does Economics 101 always end up as Religious Studies?
Good one brekin.

Plato 'reportedly' said that there are two ways to improve ones life; to increase your income or to decrease your expenses.

This modern private banker world is making it very hard to decrease expenses.

Thanks for the common dreams piece Dr.Evil.
These particular ‘eradicate poverty’ claims mask a very particular ideological intent, namely to validate the idea that we just need more of the same basic economic model. In terms of global development, this means more GDP–defined industrial growth; more, if hopefully greener consumption and production; more "trickle down" neoliberal economics; more private (i.e. corporate) influence in politics and governance; more foreign aid-based development. Which is another way of saying, we don’t need to consider the fundamentals of the global economy. We don’t need to talk about the corrupting influence of money in politics, or how we define growth, or the profoundly extractive nature of the economy, or the immense public power of private corporations, or overall levels of production and consumption. None of these are currently on the table in the discussion on the SDGs. If we want to make room for those sorts of whole-system conversations, we first need to reject the fig leaves that keep the old, incremental change ones in place.
I like the conclusion for one because progress measured in incremental changes is indeed the mask covering serious shortcomings regarding our general relationship to Reality.

Coercion all round is still main game being played. Go ahead, try to beat Reality with that.

Re: Are you broke?

Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 8:47 pm
by DrEvil
slimmouse » Mon Aug 15, 2016 11:24 pm wrote:Indeed we are Doc. We are firmly entrenched within what is generally understood by intelligent people to be essentially an electromagnetic illusion.

David Copperfield on acid.

Whose big Idea was that ?

You see we can argue about the origins till we are blue in the face, but it won't change the fact bolded above
My whole point was that I don't think it was anyone's (insert deity or spiritual force of choice) big idea.
(If you meant whose idea was electromagnetism then Maxwell is your man).

As brekin pointed out, spirituality is essentially a reaction to religious dogma where people replace top-down dogma with bottom-up dogma. Same stuff, different wrapping.

Edit: I'm not quite sure what you mean by electromagnetic illusion, so some more detail would be appreciated.

Re: Are you broke?

Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 9:09 pm
by KUAN
.

nihilistic agnosticism?

Re: Are you broke?

Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 9:30 pm
by KUAN
^ that's where having enough money is the only thing that means anything at all...

Re: Are you broke?

Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:50 pm
by Elihu
James 1

9Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted: 10But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away. 11For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways.

12Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Re: Are you broke?

Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 11:09 pm
by Elihu
Matthew 22
15Then the Pharisees having gone, took counsel how they might ensnare him in words, 16and they send to him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, ‘Teacher, we have known that thou art true, and the way of God in truth thou dost teach, and thou art not caring for any one, for thou dost not look to the face of men; 17tell us, therefore, what dost thou think? is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar or not?’ 18And Jesus having known their wickedness, said, ‘Why me do ye tempt, hypocrites? 19show me the tribute-coin?’ and they brought to him a denary; 20and he saith to them, ‘Whose [is] this image and the inscription?’ 21they say to him, ‘Caesar’s;’ then saith he to them, ‘Render therefore the things of Caesar to Caesar, and the things of God to God;’ 22and having heard they wondered, and having left him they went away.

pertinent to the op and keeping that other topic (the fasces etal) in view. apologies to dr e for my vagueness. i'd love to spill the beans all at once but then it wouldn't come out right. I think you and Grizzly misidentify the cause of the systems you each alluded to / described

Meyer's NT Commentary
Matthew 22:21 f. “There He catches them in their own trap,” Luther. The pointing to the image and inscription furnishes the questioners with ocular demonstration of the actual existence and practical recognition of Caesar’s sway, and from these Jesus infers not merely the lawfulness, but the duty of paying to Caesar what belongs to Caesar (namely, the money, which shows, by the stamp it bears, the legitimacy of the existing rule);

Expositor's Greek Testament
Matthew 22:21. ἀπόδοτε, the ordinary word for paying dues (Meyer), yet there is point in Chrysostom’s remark: οὐ γάρ ἐστι τοῦτο δοῦναι, ἀλλʼ ἀποδοῦναι· καὶ τοῦτο καὶ ἀπὸ τῆς εἰκόνος, καὶ ἀπὸ τῆς ἐπιγραφῆς δείκνυται (H. lxx.). The image and inscription showed that giving (Matthew 22:17) tribute to Caesar was only giving back to him his own.

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
21. Render therefore unto Cesar the things which are Cesar’s] The Jewish doctors laid down the principle that “He is king whose coin passes current.” St Paul expands this principle, which underlies our Lord’s answer (Romans 13:1 foll. Cp. also 1 Peter 2:13-17). Render = “pay back as due.”

Pulpit Commentary
Verse 21. - Caesar's. They are constrained to answer that the coin bears the effigy of the Roman emperor. Render (ἀπόδοτε, give back, as a due) therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's (τὰ Καίσαρος). Rabbinism ruled that the right of coinage appertained to the ruler of a state, and was a proof of de facto government, which it was unlawful to resist. The current coin, which they used in their daily transactions, showed that the Jews were no longer independent, but set under and acquiescing in a foreign domination. Being subjects of Caesar, it was their duty to submit to his demands, and to pay the taxes which he had a right to levy. This was an answer to the insidious question propounded. Christ does not take either side in the controversy; he makes no question of the mutual rights of conquered and conquerors; he utters no aspiration for the recovery of independence; he uses facts as they are, and points to habitual practice as a sufficient solution of the difficulty. No reply could be wiser or simpler. Herein he gives a lesson for all time. No plea of religion can hold good against obedience to lawful authority. "Render to all their dues," says St. Paul (Romans 13:7): "tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour." The things that are God's; τὰ τοῦ Θεοῦ. The things of God arc ourselves - our life, powers, faculties, means; to use these in God's service is our duty and our privilege.

Re: Are you broke?

Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 11:12 pm
by Elihu
KUAN » Mon Aug 15, 2016 9:30 pm wrote:^ that's where having enough money is the only thing that means anything at all...
my literary hero Orwell felt this way. and lived it if his books are to be believed. shortage is accute misery in this age.

Re: Are you broke?

Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 8:37 am
by divideandconquer
Elihu » Mon Aug 15, 2016 11:09 pm wrote:
Matthew 22
15Then the Pharisees having gone, took counsel how they might ensnare him in words, 16and they send to him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, ‘Teacher, we have known that thou art true, and the way of God in truth thou dost teach, and thou art not caring for any one, for thou dost not look to the face of men; 17tell us, therefore, what dost thou think? is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar or not?’ 18And Jesus having known their wickedness, said, ‘Why me do ye tempt, hypocrites? 19show me the tribute-coin?’ and they brought to him a denary; 20and he saith to them, ‘Whose [is] this image and the inscription?’ 21they say to him, ‘Caesar’s;’ then saith he to them, ‘Render therefore the things of Caesar to Caesar, and the things of God to God;’ 22and having heard they wondered, and having left him they went away.

pertinent to the op and keeping that other topic (the fasces etal) in view. apologies to dr e for my vagueness. i'd love to spill the beans all at once but then it wouldn't come out right. I think you and Grizzly misidentify the cause of the systems you each alluded to / described

Meyer's NT Commentary
Matthew 22:21 f. “There He catches them in their own trap,” Luther. The pointing to the image and inscription furnishes the questioners with ocular demonstration of the actual existence and practical recognition of Caesar’s sway, and from these Jesus infers not merely the lawfulness, but the duty of paying to Caesar what belongs to Caesar (namely, the money, which shows, by the stamp it bears, the legitimacy of the existing rule);

Expositor's Greek Testament
Matthew 22:21. ἀπόδοτε, the ordinary word for paying dues (Meyer), yet there is point in Chrysostom’s remark: οὐ γάρ ἐστι τοῦτο δοῦναι, ἀλλʼ ἀποδοῦναι· καὶ τοῦτο καὶ ἀπὸ τῆς εἰκόνος, καὶ ἀπὸ τῆς ἐπιγραφῆς δείκνυται (H. lxx.). The image and inscription showed that giving (Matthew 22:17) tribute to Caesar was only giving back to him his own.

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
21. Render therefore unto Cesar the things which are Cesar’s] The Jewish doctors laid down the principle that “He is king whose coin passes current.” St Paul expands this principle, which underlies our Lord’s answer (Romans 13:1 foll. Cp. also 1 Peter 2:13-17). Render = “pay back as due.”

Pulpit Commentary
Verse 21. - Caesar's. They are constrained to answer that the coin bears the effigy of the Roman emperor. Render (ἀπόδοτε, give back, as a due) therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's (τὰ Καίσαρος). Rabbinism ruled that the right of coinage appertained to the ruler of a state, and was a proof of de facto government, which it was unlawful to resist. The current coin, which they used in their daily transactions, showed that the Jews were no longer independent, but set under and acquiescing in a foreign domination. Being subjects of Caesar, it was their duty to submit to his demands, and to pay the taxes which he had a right to levy. This was an answer to the insidious question propounded. Christ does not take either side in the controversy; he makes no question of the mutual rights of conquered and conquerors; he utters no aspiration for the recovery of independence; he uses facts as they are, and points to habitual practice as a sufficient solution of the difficulty. No reply could be wiser or simpler. Herein he gives a lesson for all time. No plea of religion can hold good against obedience to lawful authority. "Render to all their dues," says St. Paul (Romans 13:7): "tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour." The things that are God's; τὰ τοῦ Θεοῦ. The things of God arc ourselves - our life, powers, faculties, means; to use these in God's service is our duty and our privilege.
So Jesus worked for "Caesar"? Is that your point? If it is, I disagree, but I can see how you would think that especially if you don't believe in life after death, if you believe this is all there is. Although, no matter what you believe, it doesn't change the fact that life is still a struggle to survive and that's been the case since the dawn of time. There will always be a small group of people who will do anything--steal, murder, torture, etc--to attain all of the wealth, power and status for themselves. These people will always exist and will always "win" because their lack of humanity allows them to do whatever it takes to rise to the top. So refusing to pay Caesar is just going to make your life struggle that much harder.

There is a reason so many powerful people use Jesus, pretending to worship Him, while deliberately twisting His words and ways to fit their agenda for thousands of years. Because Jesus demonstrated how to live in and exposed a corrupt world system that's always going to be rigged against you by teaching that you do not have to adopt their values, or buy into a system that will always measure a person's worth by the gain of status, power and material wealth.

Just imagine if everyone dismissed worldly values and decided to live their lives the way Jesus really taught/preached. That would present a real challenge to that infinitesimally small group of power-grabbing, greedy, parasitic people at the top. In other words, Jesus was and still is, 2,000 years later, a huge threat to powers that be

Re: Are you broke?

Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 10:11 am
by Elihu
i do not think he ever had much of ceasar's coin about him

Re: Are you broke?

Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 10:12 am
by Elihu
So refusing to pay Caesar is just going to make your life struggle that much harder.
this is not to be confused with doing business with ceasar

Re: Are you broke?

Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 10:24 am
by Elihu
There is a reason so many powerful people use Jesus, pretending to worship Him, while deliberately twisting His words and ways to fit their agenda for thousands of years.
this is the drift pertinent to us and relates to the general brokeness prevalent today
Because Jesus demonstrated how to live in
yes
and exposed a corrupt world system
if his kingdom had been of this world his followers would have fought.

Re: Are you broke?

Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 11:27 am
by DrEvil
KUAN » Tue Aug 16, 2016 3:09 am wrote:.

nihilistic agnosticism?
More like nihilistic atheism in my case, but I don't subscribe to nihilism as a philosophy. Just because there's no meaning to it doesn't mean you can't enjoy life and try to be a nice person. I don't even own a ferret.
^ that's where having enough money is the only thing that means anything at all...
Nope, not even close. Money is nice for food and stuff but not a priority. Haven't had a job since 2009. Give me a steady supply of books and an internet connection and I'm as happy as can be.

Re: Are you broke?

Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 12:01 pm
by divideandconquer
Elihu, all I can say is that I am totally confused.