rigorousintuition.ca

JackRiddler wrote:

erosoplier wrote:
All you can do is variations on the anti-semitism slur?

Why don't you fearlessly pursue the truth? That way one day you might end up living in the Republic you were brought up to believe you lived in.

The truth? Why don't you tell us. Did this Republic ever exist? When did it stop, in your view? Who was responsible?

It doesn't matter if it ever existed. I can give you a quick answer to when, for our practical purposes, it surely died though: when they killed Kennedy.

And it doesn't matter much who was responsible either, what matters now is how and why today the truth is stopped from seeping out. The truth that he was killed in an inside job.

911 truth should probably go on the backburner until JFK truth has truly arrived.

American Dream wrote: Please note that I am not referring to deep analysis of Israeli covert ops, or anything remotely like that. I am referring to anti-Semitic Theory.

\
Well if you think you are, well, bully for you. I'll stay on the fence about you until I see more.

In other people's cases here, there is absolutely no distinction made. Any criticism of anything Israel is anti-semitic by default.

It's ridiculous we can't discuss these things without accusations of being "stormfront lite" and such absolute fucking BULLSHIT coming out of the fevered hysterical minds of some here.

8bitagent wrote: Now you've brought up a VERY interesting point.

Call me crazy, but isn't it the racists who now love Israel and support Israel's every war crime?[/quote ]

Yes! Absolutely! I have them in my family! I've watched the transition take place over the last 40 years.

8bitagent wrote: I mean, look how much Cheney and the gang or Fox News supported every Muslim child blown up by IDF munitions. "Israel can do no wrong!"

Isn't what Israel has done, from the Ringworm radiation experiments and La Von Affair to Sabra and Shatila to the more recent bloodbaths in Palestine and Lebanon RACIST? [/quote ]

Absolutely and they are the first to throw out the "racist" label. You know, if you don't support THEIR war crimes, you're a racist. Here, you're a member of StormfrontLite according to some.

8bitagent wrote: I saw a documentary a few years ago on the "Zionist Christian" movement, basically fundamentalist end timer Christians who are obsessed with Israel as it fits into their sick little apocalyptic scenario.

I hate all evil oppressive governments. Be it Saudi Arabia, China, North Korea, Sudan, Israel, Egypt, Iran, America, England, Indonesia,
Burma/Myanmar, you name it. I've no special little bias against one nation or another, to me evil is evil.

There you go. I feel the same way. I have no dog in the religious battle. I don't care who purports to be Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or whatever, anyone using their religion to squash the human rights of another group is the same as any other war criminal. And should be dealt with accordingly.

And what's so annoying about the Israeli/IDF situation is that as soon as you simply start to reveal any TRUTH about what they're doing, you are slammed from all sides by the racist apologists for the war criminals, accused of being worse than THEY are, and buried under the hysterical charges of "antisemitism!"

It's really annoying.

You'd think a place like this would have moved beyond silly tribal associations i.e. "my team is great, your team sucks" that we find in Jr. High school, but when it comes to Israel, that seems impossible for some.

ON EDIT: I so hate dealing with the HTML stuff on this site. Why is it completely different from every other site? And why does it work only ab out half the fucking time?

Nordic wrote: In other people's cases here, there is absolutely no distinction made. Any criticism of anything Israel is anti-semitic by default.

To whom are you referring?

And what's so annoying about the Israeli/IDF situation is that as soon as you simply start to reveal any TRUTH about what they're doing, you are slammed from all sides by the racist apologists for the war criminals, accused of being worse than THEY are, and buried under the hysterical charges of "antisemitism!"

Complete bullshit that this argument is about the "Israeli/IDF situation," or that telling truth about Israeli crimes normally gets anyone slurred on this board. This is about models of power and decision making within the US empire, but you're finding it easy to pretend that disputing the xymphora ("stormfront lite") view of 9/11 and Iraq = "defending Israel."

I'm not pretending squat. I don't know jack shit about stormfront's view of 9/11 or anything else, except that stormfront is antisemitic (although maybe I should look into that, seeing as who's TELLING ME they are).

I'm just trying to figure things out, looking objectively at things and using my OWN BRAIN rather than depending on lies provided to me for my entire life by my country and its media.

For some reason this makes you very agitated.

Moved to

http://rigorousintuition.ca/board/viewtopic.php?t=25592

Nordic wrote:For some reason this makes you very agitated.

Where have I seen this particular rhetorical technique before?

Angry left, angry antiwar protesters, Bush derangement syndrome, angry feminists, angry angry angry etc.

Yes, it agitates me mildly when you assume you have any idea of what my emotional state is by way of cyberspace.

JackRiddler wrote:

Nordic wrote:For some reason this makes you very agitated.

Where have I seen this particular rhetorical technique before?

Angry left, angry antiwar protesters, Bush derangement syndrome, angry feminists, angry angry angry etc.

Yes, it agitates me mildly when you assume you have any idea of what my emotional state is by way of cyberspace.

I thought you started your own thread about how persecuted and misunderstood you are.

Nordic wrote:I thought you started your own thread about how persecuted and misunderstood you are.

Actually, it's about how you are serving Likud interests with your lazy, fact-free, post-reality tolerance of Stormfront Lite.

(And whatever it is, you obviously went and read it.)

Nordic wrote:

Absolutely and they are the first to throw out the "racist" label. You know, if you don't support THEIR war crimes, you're a racist. Here, you're a member of StormfrontLite according to some.


There you go. I feel the same way. I have no dog in the religious battle. I don't care who purports to be Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or whatever, anyone using their religion to squash the human rights of another group is the same as any other war criminal. And should be dealt with accordingly.

And what's so annoying about the Israeli/IDF situation is that as soon as you simply start to reveal any TRUTH about what they're doing, you are slammed from all sides by the racist apologists for the war criminals, accused of being worse than THEY are, and buried under the hysterical charges of "antisemitism!"

I know for years anytime on or offline I brought up the horrors that Israel has done or is doing, people would roll their eyes and say "God, let me guess the Jews run the world too?" or some crap like that.

But then something curious happened...

Israel for no real reason went into Lebanon in the summer of 2006 and basically murdered 1500 plus civilians and injured many more, destroying large swaths of Beirut and other cities.
A move which even many Israelis found immoral and wrong.

Finally earlier this year, we saw MSNBC showing dead, mutilated and gravely wounded Palestinian children and civilians nearly every day.
We had everyone from Pat Buchanan to Zbigniew Brzezinski decreeing Israel's crimes as genocidal, murderous and war crimes. I believe this plus the reality of how deeply incestuous the neocon/Israeli far right had become sunk in(Israel went to the neocons for approval before they carried out the massive blitz on Southern Lebanon in mid 2006)

The mass slaughter of Gazans this year I think finally woke up people on both the left and right who had blindly defended Israel that something wasn't right.

I think the wide acclaim Jimmy Carter as well as the animated foreign film Waltz With Bashir(a Hebrew made film) also helped sway opinion.

Of course, when NWO stooges like Ahmadinejad gets paid to conflate
9/11 truth with Holocaust denial, its intentionally made to at once uphold the official 9/11 narrative as well as make Israel look like the good guy and Iran the bad guy. In reality both Israel and Iran are run by thugs.

Now I've been accused of "hating Arabs, Muslims and Middle Easterners"
in truther/conspiracy circles for talking about Islamic extremism. I have no bias toward any group or angle. I readily admit acts committed by Hamas and Hezbollah and do not pretend that they are innocent, nor do I pretend Iran is innocent, nor any of these sickfuck Arab governments(like Saudi Arabia) to be innocent. I do not blindly defend China, or say any hatred of non white governments is "CIA propaganda".

No dog in the fight either...I just hate seeing gay/women killing, oppressive governments who conduct mass slaughter or oppression, or export it over seas.

8bitagent wrote:I know for years anytime on or offline I brought up the horrors that Israel has done or is doing, people would roll their eyes and say "God, let me guess the Jews run the world too?" or some crap like that.

That must be a very frustrating experience for you. So I guess you understand then that those who do actually claim "the Jews run the world too" are doing you a big disservice! Right?

JackRiddler wrote:

8bitagent wrote:I know for years anytime on or offline I brought up the horrors that Israel has done or is doing, people would roll their eyes and say "God, let me guess the Jews run the world too?" or some crap like that.

That must be a very frustrating experience for you. So I guess you understand then that those who do actually claim "the Jews run the world too" are doing you a big disservice! Right?

Well I used to be like that. I used to hear criticism of Israel or talk of a "new world order" or conspiracies and think "oh boy, more far right white supremist patriot movement talk".

Sadly, just a year into the 9/11 research community and I saw a lot of hardcore anti Jewish sites like Hufsmind, American Free Press, Wingtv, and a lot of "crypto Jew" and "Zionist things, Jew that" obsession.

Where's the balance? It's like those that insist there is no Islamic extremism, that it doesn't exist or is all a hoax by the CIA. (hence why I loved Jeff's blog about 9/11 truth=new Coke)

I personally love all people, and feel Israel deserves to exist...I just find it unfortunate they had to trample on the Palestinians to initiate it. And I find it troubling how much Israel plays into end time views.
Clearly some of Israel's war crimes come from Arab animosity, Israeli-Arab conflicts from decades past and a whole slew of complex issues.

I'm just trying to figure out why and how Israel has such a bizarre and perverse and unexplainable hold upon the United States.

Alice has been the only one to offer up an explanation that makes sense.

I'm not saying I buy it 100% but it sure is interesting.

Nobody else has been able to explain it.

Unless -- I know! -- they really are God's Chosen People.

At least my fundie wingnut (and racist and formerly antiSemitic) stepmom thinks so. Then again she hopes they're all killed off in the endtimes, when the rapture comes, and she and her ilk go to heaven and the rest of them rot, or burn, or whatever they're supposed to do.

The only reason I haven't been piping up in support of the general truth of Jack's position wrt what's a stark geopolitical reality and what an endlessly exploitable narrative justification that allows the very small number of plutocrats whose interests that reality serves to keep persuading both themselves and others that the ongoing acts of bloody carnage and other assorted crimes against humanity in the middle east are attributable to anything as amorphously conceptual as any country's national interest is that I don't have any reason to think that people are going to be any more inclined to select the program that offers them no benefits over the one that offers them dubious benefits than they've ever been. Which is close enough to "Never" that it's pretty much a distinction without a difference.

Also, Jack: Alice is not an anti-Semite. I would hate to have to fight you or anyone else in the bar who wants to make an issue out of that. But if I have to, I will. It's an objectionable and unmerited characterization. I should make it emphatically clear that I so totally know that you're just not capable of making that claim out of ill will or any other disreputable motive, that I'll also fight anyone in the bar who suggests otherwise, btw. But I do think you're making a serious error in judgment.

To be fair, I do -- obviously -- also think that Alice and others are making a serious error in judgment if they think that Israel and/or Zionists have any more influence over what tune the U.S. dances to than any of the other first-tier client and/or partner-states that hold what amounts to a key man position within the organizational infrastructure that enabled American imperial power to make it's long and blood-soaked ascent to the heights from which it recently began what I don't doubt will be its equally long and blood-soaked decline. Dougie Feith might be stupid enough to think he's really backing a winner. But I seriously doubt that Richard Perle is. Or that he hasn't hedged his bets accordingly, wrt to not putting the bull of his capital investments in the same place as his rhetoric. Although I suppose only his personal accountant knows for sure.

In any event. Israel simply doesn't have enough irreplacable tangible assets for the bad guys who've sworn their first allegiance to it to have any way of compelling permanent power do much of anything that it doesn't already want to do. It's got a place on the board of directors, for sure. Which it doesn't look to me like it's at much risk of losing any time soon. It's also got enough voting shares that when its interests are divergent enough from those of the rest of the syndicate to create a conflict, it has the leverage to win some with a lot more frequency than it loses. But it doesn't call the shots, and it's not in a position to consolidate its holdings in any way that makes their value any less dependent on the volatility of a marketplace most of which is controlled by more powerful syndicates. A few of whom really don't care for doing business with Jews at all. To the point that they regard it as a problem the final solution to which they still hope some day to see.

Of course, those same few also think of Arabs as an inferior race of people whose wish to govern themselves and their lands without Western oversight would merely be a laughable annoyance if it were still as easy to manipulate and suppress it as it used to be, back in the good old days of the 19th Century, when you could still trade in their valuable natural resources on terms that were so disproportionately profitable to you that they weren't many degrees removed from theft without having to invest so much on periodically escalating the scale on which you violently eradicated large numbers of them, either directly or by proxy. To say nothing of what it costs to deal with those who are not only too inferior to thank you for helping them reduce the virulent risk and overall threat to "civilization" they'd pose if you just sat back and let them become numerous and powerful enough to overspread and corrupt the entire world, but so utterly savage that they respond to the increasing violence and frequency with which you periodically try to bomb them back to some semblance of a kinder and gentler pre-industrial era by engaging in barbaric and unprovoked acts of violence against you and others.

Not excluding your proxies in Israel, in whom you can't afford to liquidate your investment until you either establish a viable substitute for it or let the conflagration grow to the point that whatever doesn't go down with it isn't in good enough shape to refuse whatever terms you're offering.

_______________

I don't personally think that strategy's going to succeed. But I also don't think that the preservation of the state of Israel on terms that are favorable to the state of Israel is or ever has been U.S. policy because Zionism has succeeded in putting enough Zionists in high places to guarantee that it would be. Or that it means that any of the patrician powers who thought Jews were an inferior race whose low and grasping make them too great a menace to society to be safely tolerated back in the '30s don't still think it. The Bush family, at the very least, have enough concern for appearances that Poppy and Barbara forced their then 21-year-old oldest son, Georgie W., to break his engagement to a nice Episcopalian girl from a wealthy Houston family because it had been tainted by her Jewish stepfather.**

And when it comes to the Christian right, there's not even any room for doubt about what recommends Zionism to them as an ideology that trumps all other concerns. They want to see Jews restored to the Promised Land in order to meet the criteria for the Messiah's return, at which point all Jews who failed to convert and two-thirds of those who did will occupy their biblically mandated eternal place in hell. Nor is their any doubt that they were completely uninfluenced by Israeli power when they signed up for that cause. The restoration of Jews to the promised land had been a popular cause among Christian leaders of both church and state in America and Great Britian for the better part of a century by the time Theodor Herzl published Der Judenstaat, as well as one for which a small number of British activists had already succeeded in winning enough government support to have a small presence on the ground in Palestine. Jewish Zionism was a secular fringe political movement that made so little sense that it had virtually no popular support among Jews outside of the ones who'd already started emigrating to Palestine from Russia in order to avoid being massacred twenty years before Zionism even became a Jewish concept. As mostly Eastern European Jews continued to do in response to this or that wave of pogroms. It didn't really become a whole lot more than a bizarre idea to most European and American Jews until after the Second World War.

None of which in any way makes the many decades of Zionist and/or Israeli crimes against (Arab) humanity one whit less criminal. or the Zionists and/or Israelis who committed them one iota less accountable.

But it's simply not the case that the world jumps when Israel tells it to. Nor is it comprehensively historically accurate to maintain that the state of Israel was conceived by powerful Jewish Zionists who relentlessly coopted British and American powers until they could bend it to their will in ways that ran counter to British and American political interests. The British started having problems with the Ottoman Empire in the run up to World War One to which the contemporaneous popular support for Christian Zionist ideas provided a neat and convenient solution. Herzl's first and possibly most influential supporter was a chaplain working at the English embassy in Vienna, who was a major proponent of the theological necessity of returning the promised land to Jews. Which was, at the time, a much more attractive proposition to the politically powerful than returning to the promised land was going to turn out to be to very many Jews until almost fifty years later.

Israel's actions are indefensible on a prima facie basis. It's totally unnecessary to endow them with more power or more dramatically twisted motives than those that are hiding in plain sight in order to call them evil acts. They are evil acts. In addition to which, the mythology that allows them to purport to be acting virtuously isn't very likely to be replaced by anything significantly less evil if you have to use counter-mythological tactics to do it. On that score, the truth is not only just as servicable as the exaggeration is in practical terms, it's also actually much better strategy. By far.

My twenty-seven cents.


** Cathryn Lee Wolfman, who probably gives thanks to whatever merciful power was responsible for that blessing in disguise, I'd imagine. Although she's only given one interview, afaik. OT, I know. But there are so few opportunities for retailing in pure shallow celebrity gossip on RI, I didn't want to let this one pass. So fwiw, she says he cried when she returned the ring to him.