It's a Man's World!

[Project Willow]

There are several assumptions here that don’t hold up to examination. Firstly, there is the use of the word “feminism” as if it were one set of values; if there’s one thing I have learned in the last month at this board, this simply isn’t the case. There are types of feminism which seem reasonable to me (such as equal rights), and there are types that seem insane and destructive (such as those pointed out by Dines in the video). Also, it’s been clearly demonstrated at this board that many of the assumptions of even the most basic sort of feminist rhetoric are simply wrong (such as the idea that men are more domestically violent than women. Newsflash: they aren’t).

No, and certainly not by someone who approached this topic completely ignorant of feminist analysis and history, a newbie who knows naught of what he speaks, who attempts with a wave of an imaginary magical wand of "anti-ideology" which is itself an ideology. And you're wrong about domestic violence, or any other kind of violence, and blind, deaf, and dumb to the experiences of women who live in a world with other humans who are physically stronger than they are and who use that advantage to their benefit on a daily basis. Just because no woman here bothered to counter whatever MRA bullshit was posted on DV, doesn't mean it's true.

• A woman is beaten every 9 seconds.
  The American Medical Association (AMA) and FBI estimate 3-4 million women are battered each year in the U.S.
  Domestic Violence is the single greatest cause of injury to women.
  The FBI estimates violence will occur during the course of two-thirds of all marriages.
  An AMA report shows that every five years as many women are killed by their intimate partners as were men and women killed in the Viet Nam War: 54,000.
  More than 75% of the women killed in Iowa were murdered by their intimate partner.
  95% of domestic violence is reported by women – perpetrated against them by their male partner.
  When men are battered it is typically by their male intimate partner … battering occurs in gay and lesbian relationships at the same rate as heterosexual relationships – approximately 35%.
  80% of all violent crimes committed outside the home are committed by males … it is highly unlikely that women, generally peaceful and non-violent, would make up half of partner violence.

“this presentation of grievances is the product of an individualistic, post-modernist approach, an attempt to create an alternate reality wherein women and feminists are made into scapegoats for the oppressive acts of other men.”

I don’t see anything post-modern or individualistic about slomo’s arguments, nor do I see any attempt to create “an alternate reality,” much less to scapegoat feminists. I think people at this board will agree with this viewpoint, however, because of a deeply embedded ideological brainwash about “Patriarchy,” which “feminism” (in its various forms) is at least partially responsible for. Holding someone to account is not the same as scapegoating, and if any sex is being scapegoated in today’s neoliberal-totalitarian world, it is not women.

Do you have any idea how inflammatory your brainwashing statements are? Do you have any inkling of how positively insulting you're being, how psychologically cruel? Of course you do. You're speaking to a survivor of brainwashing, which is why you're using this language. This negates your entire argument. I can only assume you have no interest whatsoever in understanding, you only wish to demoralize.

I posted a quoted from a popular book called The Descent of Men at the gender thread, here, calling men “vermin.” Not only did this description apparently not hinder the book’s success, no one at RI remarked on it. It is as if referring to men as vermin is no big deal, either because it’s already agreed that men are vermin, or because it doesn’t really matter what you call them, because they are in charge anyway. I find this sort of doublethink baffling and depressing.

Yes, I know it is horribly disturbing to be referred to as something negative without recognition or consequence. That is what it is like to live on a daily basis as a woman.

The question of patriarchy is not a question, if data is the requisite, I mean c'mon, it's silly.

Only if you base your criteria for what’s real on social statistics and purely material phenomena.

On what else would one base one's criteria? This is the entire point. We are talking systems here, opposed to anomalous individual experiences, which are still subject to the power of operative systems even if it may be more difficult to delineate them. That is what men like you cannot get beyond, that is what you fail to see. I'll quote someone whom I deeply respect and miss from the days when this board was once populated by people who were brilliant, thoughtful, and empathetic. Those days are gone. I would invite you to try to look beyond your own male informed experience in all of this, but I realize it's quite useless.

Men are so heartbreakingly, hopelessly and excessively sensitive to just about all perceived and real criticism, rejection and/or abandonment by women and have so much unaddressed guilt and fear and anger and performance anxiety about sex and have so few resources and coping mechanisms for dealing with those feelings that (loosely speaking) it's generally either pointlessly cruel or pointlessly dangerous to raise those issues and/or a host of associated issues with them at all directly. In those terms or, for that matter, even closely related terms.

Because no matter how carefully, lovingly, impartially, or non-critically you do it, they just go into a complete state of defensive meltdown immediately. They are, in fact, that thin-skinned. So the conversations all end up like this thread. Women try to say something about themselves, then spend the next eternity soothing, handling, wrangling with, or expiating themselves for whatever brutal thing about men the men who heard them thought they said.

I think -- although as I said, I have no way of knowing -- that most women know that better than most men do.

In any event. It always goes that way. Every single time. And it really is heartbreaking, first and foremost. As well as frustrating, both on one's own behalf and as a matter of love and consideration for the man and/or men, assuming a relationship in which that's present.

If you have any ideas about how that might most constructively be approached, please share them.

The problem is, as always, men who have no wherewithal to be able to shut up and listen. That is the central issue. It's as if the minute women must be contemplated as human beings, it means some men cease to exist. That is the definition of misogyny. That is the real mind-fuck at work here.

[Project Willow]

Let's a try a listening exercise:

http://www.upworthy.com/this-is-how-a-l ... ery-woman1

Whenever I speak about or write about women’s issues — dress codes, rape culture, and sexism — there’s this thing that happens. People ask: Are things really that bad?

https://newrepublic.com/minutes/125840/ ... n-equal-us
A new U.N. report says it’s a “myth” that women are equal in the U.S.

The percentage of women in poverty has risen from 12.1 percent to 14.5 percent over the last decade—a higher rate of poverty than men. The gender pay gap, meanwhile, hasn’t changed much: it stands at 21 percent. And, the report points out, “despite the existence of the 1963 Equal Pay Act and Title VII, federal law does not require equal pay for work of equal value.”

http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Page ... 2&LangID=E
UN Working Group on the issue of discrimination against women in law and in practice finalizes country mission to the United States - See more at: http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Page ... mNUFN.dpuf

http://www.thestranger.com/blogs/slog/2 ... l-academia
British Medical Journal Study, No Joke, Says Moustaches Outnumber Women at the Top of US Medical Academia
Four researchers looked at the upper lips of the leadership of the top 50 US medical schools funded by the National Institutes of Health. They found more moustaches than women, according to a study published yesterday by the British Medical Journal.
"Our hypothesis was that fewer women lead academic medical departments in the US than individuals with moustaches," the researchers reported, and their hypothesis turned out to be true.
The total pool of leaders studied was 1,018 department leaders across American medical academia. Researchers found that females accounted for 13 percent of leaders, while moustaches appeared on 19 percent of leaders.

[minime]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Luther Blissett]

In my experience, women don’t generalize about men because of one singular bad experience.
One singular bad experience makes you cautious. Hopefully.
But then you have another, singular bad experience. From a different man.
Then another.
Then another.
Then multiple bad experiences with one man.
Then that happens again.
The singular bad experiences add up.
The multiple bad experiences add up.
And you start noticing the patterns.
One of the ones I keep noticing – the men most likely to cause me a bad experience, either singular or multiple, are apt to speak loudest about being exceptional. Being a Good Guy. A Nice Guy. A Misunderstood Nice Guy. Not Like the Other Men I’ve Known.
And if they’re convincing, if I let them beneath my defenses, it happens again. Maybe it takes a while longer. Maybe I try harder. Maybe he does.
But it happens.
And I add it to the list of experiences as to why I don’t trust men, however harmless, kind or sweet they initially appear or behave.
Almost every man I’ve known who’s said, “I would never do that!” whether that was using misogynistic slurs, yelling for no reason, or sexual assault, has ended up doing that.
So, yeah, I’m going to generalize. When the general behavior of men alters to the good, I’ll generalize that, too.
But it hasn’t happened yet.
And it’s not on me, or other women, to fix it for you.

http://kerryrenaissance.tumblr.com/post ... -about-men

[DrEvil]

Have to say I'm surprised and a little bit shocked at the amount of MRA bullshit coming from otherwise intelligent people here.

[tapitsbo]

Well I guess the whole "épater le médecin méchant" thing worked.

[guruilla]

No, and certainly not by someone who approached this topic completely ignorant of feminist analysis and history, a newbie who knows naught of what he speaks

My being new to this forum (2010) is supposed to be relevant to the validity of my posts? Or do you mean new to the ideology of feminism (in which case you are misinformed: I was raised by progressive leftists.)

And you're wrong about domestic violence, or any other kind of violence, and blind, deaf, and dumb to the experiences of women who live in a world with other humans who are physically stronger than they are and who use that advantage to their benefit on a daily basis. Just because no woman here bothered to counter whatever MRA bullshit was posted on DV, doesn't mean it's true.

You trot out your stats, I trot out mine. & round and round it goes.

Erin: Yes, the British Home crime figures show virtually equal between men and women, domestic violence.

Dean: Wow.

Erin: It doesn’t matter how often you say this, or you point it out. You tell a lie long enough, Goebbels said, you can brainwash the entire community. And that’s what’s happened here.

Do you have any idea how inflammatory your brainwashing statements are? Do you have any inkling of how positively insulting you're being, how psychologically cruel? Of course you do. You're speaking to a survivor of brainwashing, which is why you're using this language. This negates your entire argument. I can only assume you have no interest whatsoever in understanding, you only wish to demoralize.

I am sorry you find my arguments so upsetting. Your past history of being brainwashed is something I am aware of and sensitive to. However, I'm not going to soft-peddle my arguments or use specially chosen language to try and avoid triggering you, because that never works anyway, and because I object to your efforts to police this board and to shame posters into capitulating to your ideological viewpoint, and to reimpose some sort of house-philosophy around here. I think this is evidenced by your attempt to turn me into a devious brainwasher simply because you find my arguments upsetting. Using one's status as an abuse victim to silence anyone who disagrees with us is becoming quite common nowadays (even by people who may not have suffered serious abuse). I think it does a serious disservice to everyone involved.

Yes, I know it is horribly disturbing to be referred to as something negative without recognition or consequence. That is what it is like to live on a daily basis as a woman.

This may be your experience, in which case you have my sympathy. What I have noticed at this board in the course of certain discussions, and also in my own life, is that when we expect people to treat us a certain way, we treat them in more or less the same way as a preemptive strike. This of course then triggers the dreaded behavior in the other, and we then get to say that we knew it all along, that men are all misogynists, or women are all ballbusters, or whatever our pattern may be. But really the pattern of behavior is in us, and it is sourced in the past, not in the present.

I know plenty of women and none of them complain about what you are complaining about. The world is a mirror and that is all it is.

On what else would one base one's criteria?

On psychology.

That is what men like you cannot get beyond, that is what you fail to see.

When we relate to someone as "men/women like you," we are relating to all the men or women we feel have failed to "get it" and who have kept us oppressed or made us feel unloved, which is probably one wo/man, finally. Sorting out the wo/men in our life, including at this forum, won't resolve those issues. And if we are trying to sort out other people who trigger in us ancient patterns of neglect or abuse, the only way is by approaching them as individuals to communicate with, not as problems to be fixed.

I'll quote someone whom I deeply respect and miss from the days when this board was once populated by people who were brilliant, thoughtful, and empathetic. Those days are gone. I would invite you to try to look beyond your own male informed experience in all of this, but I realize it's quite useless.

You mean the days when you were backed up by matching ideologies? If this is about lamenting that RI is not the place it once was, then all I can say is that, although I wasn't around in that RI-heyday, I have heard stories that don't match such a rose-tinted view. In fact, they are very far from it.

The problem is, as always, men who have no wherewithal to be able to shut up and listen. That is the central issue.

It's as if the minute women must be contemplated as human beings, it means some men cease to exist. That is the definition of misogyny. That is the real mind-fuck at work here.

Again, there is no misogyny or misandry in my world, not because I am cloistered but because the relationships I seek and nurture go deeper than ideological differences. (It's true that we all have ideological baggage, but some are more attached to it than others.) Only at this forum am I experiencing something that resembles those things, and feeling them also. Not that this forum is not part of my world (it is now), just that each of us brings our own experiences, and once there's no longer a willingness to hear and respect the other's experience, then the conversation breaks down. Then all that's left is personal attacks against character, or lack of it.

I am not sure what Luther Blissett wants to communicate with his song lyrics, except that women are right to distrust and despise men. This appears strange coming from a man, except that I am growing used to the self-hating male syndrome at this site. That would seem to be the real hidden "Bro-Code": apparently any man who doesn't listen to Mommy and revile himself and his sex must be a misogynist. It's not really shocking to me to see how deep the rot has gone; but it is a bit of a "mindfuck" to learn that it passes for some people at this forum for "progress."

[guruilla]

Well I guess the whole "épater le médecin méchant" thing worked.

[guruilla]

duplicate post, deleted

[jakell]

In response to your deleted remark (cojones?)

I'm guessing that it's the same as why people are no longer enamoured with AD's stuff, it's starting to look a bit shrill and dated. The 'third wave' is possibly starting to shoot itself in the foot and doesn't need much help from onlookers.

[Agent Orange Cooper]

That would seem to be the real hidden "Bro-Code": apparently any man who doesn't listen to Mommy and revile himself and his sex must be a misogynist. It's not really shocking to me to see how deep the rot has gone; but it is a bit of a "mindfuck" to learn that it passes for some people at this forum for "progress."

Seriously? This is pretty hideous stuff. The fact that you drone on & on about the pitfalls of culture & ideology and yet bring this Freudian garbage to the table (under the guise of psychology as if that's some etched-in-the-grain universal truth & not half-baked Blame-the-Mother pseudoscience) says a lot about your level of self-awareness, or lack thereof. I have no interest in a debate, but I just couldn't not say something in defense of PW. She's absolutely right, you need a lesson—nay, a fucking seminar—in empathy.

[Luther Blissett]

Yeah, like maybe years of watching livestreams of hidden cameras on women to see what their lives are like at work, out in public, and at home.

Just imagine being nice…now just do that permanently.

[Heaven Swan]

I agree that what Guruilla and other MRA supporters are doing is turning up the heat of the hostile climate for women that already exists on this site. Thanks to Project Willow for taking the time to speak up in such a harsh and depressing environment.

What he and other MRA's are doing falls under the category of REVERSALS of BLAME and REALITY

[tapitsbo]

Yeah, like maybe years of watching livestreams of hidden cameras on women to see what their lives are like at work, out in public, and at home.

Just imagine being nice…now just do that permanently.

Luther, I think you are an unsung master of dark irony.

Nothing enrages nearly as much as "nice", nay, "nicey-nice"!

[Heaven Swan]

Luther Blisset wrote:

Yeah, like maybe years of watching livestreams of hidden cameras on women to see what their lives are like at work, out in public, and at home.

Yea but please don't give them any ideas. There has been a rash of hidden cameras discovered in women's loos lately.