rigorousintuition.ca

Luther Blissett » 12 Jun 2014 07:44 wrote:Are there enough organic seeds in the market today for every human on earth to start a proportional pocket farm in their locale during a spontaneous anti-capitalist revolution?

of course not. plus a thousand other problems. Sounder is lobbying for... Well, I don't know, he doesn't say.

I lack compassion? At least I'm trying to address the problem. Sounder, your agenda leads to billions starving to death, mass civil unrest, total civilization collapse, every nuke meltingdown, and even with all that putting the breaks on CO2, still catastrophic climate change is already in the pipeline that will destroy every life form we typically ever see, beyond humans. In case you haven't noticed, Western Civ functionally IS Human Civ, all others have more or less already collapsed.

justdrew » Fri Jun 13, 2014 10:02 am wrote:...still catastrophic climate change is already in the pipeline that will destroy every life form we typically ever see, beyond humans..

justdrew...can you support this claim by any scientific study? I'm not aware of any.

The other thing I ask...do you think that the flora, fauna, bacteria, humans, etc., have considerable natural adaptation capabilities when facing environmental changes that threaten survival?

Well none of us or our kids have to worry about it, our grandchildren or great grandchildren, however, will be right in the midst of the extinction though and that is very sad and depressing. I do not dismiss this, I do believe it is very real and very possible. What is really scary is that it would only take 3 degrees of climate change to set this off, 3 simple degrees and it is pretty much game over and that is exactly where we are headed according to most experts. 3 degrees would change everything to the point we would not be able to adjust nor survive for long.

Not a bad read here:

http://www.climatecodered.org/2010/09/w ... -mean.html

It seems highly unlikely to me that ALL the humans will die and that ALL life-forms will die. It seems more likely that various population reduction measures will be put into place, like I dunno, war, engineered plagues, sterilization programs, techno-fascist rule, etc. Why would wealthy and powerful elites just let civilization end? Wouldn't they sacrifice billions of people to save human civilization? They'd reason that all the billions living today will eventually die anyway, one way or another, but that if they're allowed to die later, it will be more disruptive to the progress of civilization. If you look at the course of history, you see repeated elite purgings of populations in wars, prisons, etc.

jlaw172364 » Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:15 pm wrote:It seems highly unlikely to me that ALL the humans will die and that ALL life-forms will die. It seems more likely that various population reduction measures will be put into place, like I dunno, war, engineered plagues, sterilization programs, techno-fascist rule, etc. Why would wealthy and powerful elites just let civilization end? Wouldn't they sacrifice billions of people to save human civilization? They'd reason that all the billions living today will eventually die anyway, one way or another, but that if they're allowed to die later, it will be more disruptive to the progress of civilization. If you look at the course of history, you see repeated elite purgings of populations in wars, prisons, etc.

Well I agree with you on that, I have often asked the chemtrail folks how do they explain the fact that if it is poison designed to kill us that is being sprayed, the ones spraying it are also breathing the same air and therefore killing themselves and their own families, so that never made sense to me. I also think they will do whatever they have to in order to keep their power and survive, I was just suggesting if these guys are right and it does happen, we wont experience it but some of our grand kids being born in the next decade would.

But generally, I think you may be closer to what really may unfold. It is an interesting subject. The way I usually see it is that elites have their cake and they get to eat it too, as we sit right now, nobody does anything to try and stop them, they have it made, they live like royalty and we allow them to fuck us coming and going so why would they ever want that to end, why would they collapse it all like a total economic collapse as some suggest is coming, why would they allow that when they have it so well, makes no sense to me and I think they will do whatever it takes to continue this status quo.

Nature, however, is the wildcard, we dont know what she has in store for us and even the elites cant win that one if she decides to throw a curve ball our way.

...

(A)nyone or anything that stands in the way of this reorganization must be utterly and remorselessly destroyed.

First do none harm.

They day I stake my survival and the survival of 'most life on earth' on even MANY humans "evolving" is they day I give up. Not. Going. To. Happen. and even if it were to happen, no one has any idea what that would even look like or accomplish. I have little interest in reincarnating as deep soil bacteria or a thermal vent tube worm. Someone please point to one living example of this evolved-human please.

Many humans are already evolved.

Myself included.

The idea that this is all somehow "beyond" us is nuts defeatist, doom-porn.

I agree with that sentiment.

Cat man do!

Now is the time to act to save Mother Earth!
...

Hammer of Los » 13 Jun 2014 04:24 wrote:...

(A)nyone or anything that stands in the way of this reorganization must be utterly and remorselessly destroyed.

First do none harm.

so, when the whatever it'll be called, the "freedum warriors" blow up a dormitory full of people working on "saving mother earth" you're not going to do anything to stop that? Maybe magic will just bring them all back to life and replace the building.

You have no right to defend yourself?

BLAH BLAH BORK BORK MODERATE HEY GUYS LET'S BORK BORK BLAH BLAH ETC

Thank you for listening!

justdrew » Mon Jun 09, 2014 7:06 pm wrote:The idea that this is all somehow "beyond" us is nuts defeatist, doom-porn.

This is a solvable problem. IF we act.

so let's agree on 'evolving' enough at least to fucking do something.

keep in mind, I'm absolutely talking about reshaping the nature of the economy and down-sizing free market capitalism extensively, but some 'command and control' is called for here too. People can work together very well indeed, when the economic system isn't designed to pit them against one another.

the changes that are required will be opposed though, and there's zero time to tolerate that.

You know, justdrew, I'm sorry if I came off as being dismissive. Far too many people in this world cry, "Revolution!" without heeding John Lennon's implicit advice that before you revolt, you need a fucking plan for a viable alternative. I'm still not convinced what you are advocating is viable, but I have high regard for anyone who can come up with a plan.

Part of my reservation comes from David Goodstein's observation that it takes about 30 or 40 years to replace an energy infrastructure. I suppose you could theoretically sweep that concern aside in an emergency situation and narrow the transition to 5-10 years. But that brings up my next reservation: cost. How much? How will it be paid for? Taking the Hirsch Report's $20 trillion price tag as the best estimate, what's your plan for "reshaping the nature of the economy and down-sizing free market capitalism extensively"?

Re: cost and numbers, I would look to Amory Lovins and the Rocky Mountain Institute who have been on that beat for decades now. Been awhile since I was in these waters, but they were the gold standard to me. I realize they caught a lot of flak for consulting with .mil and Wal-Mart but I don't think that means they can't be trusted, especially when they're communicating on a level few activist groups can even aspire to. A lot of brainpower there.

Edit: Also; baby otters.

Thanks for pointing me in Amory Lovins' direction, Wombaticus. By remarkable synchronicity, I was just reading Storms of My Grandchildren this morning and on page 21, James Hansen refers to an Amory Lovins projection from 1977 that foresaw US energy consumption undergoing enough continual improvements in energy efficiency so that energy use would actually start declining by the 90's and early 21st century. While not technically an accurate prediction, it was far closer to reality than the EIA projection from 1975, which foresaw US energy consumption increasing 3% per year. As Hansen says on page 22, "The real-world data for energy use in the United States...show that Lovins was at least half right. U.S. energy use grew only slowly, about 1 percent per year, after 1975. But the data also show that Lovins's scenario, if taken as a prediction, was half wrong, at least so far. Use of renewable energies such as the sun and wind is still so small that it barely shows up in the graph."

I'm curious to read Lovins' book "Reinventing Fire". I'd like to see how his projections break down on his plan for transitioning US electricity to renewables by 2050 at a $6 trillion pricetag. Specifically I want to see how his plan accounts for EROEI. His ideas are certainly positive, but as far as how promising they really are, the devil is in the details.

jlaw172364 » Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:15 pm wrote:

It seems highly unlikely to me that ALL the humans will die and that ALL life-forms will die. It seems more likely that various population reduction measures will be put into place, like I dunno, war, engineered plagues, sterilization programs, techno-fascist rule, etc. Why would wealthy and powerful elites just let civilization end? Wouldn't they sacrifice billions of people to save human civilization? They'd reason that all the billions living today will eventually die anyway, one way or another, but that if they're allowed to die later, it will be more disruptive to the progress of civilization. If you look at the course of history, you see repeated elite purgings of populations in wars, prisons, etc.

Hunter wrote…
Well I agree with you on that, I have often asked the chemtrail folks how do they explain the fact that if it is poison designed to kill us that is being sprayed, the ones spraying it are also breathing the same air and therefore killing themselves and their own families, so that never made sense to me. I also think they will do whatever they have to in order to keep their power and survive, I was just suggesting if these guys are right and it does happen, we wont experience it but some of our grand kids being born in the next decade would.

But generally, I think you may be closer to what really may unfold. It is an interesting subject. The way I usually see it is that elites have their cake and they get to eat it too, as we sit right now, nobody does anything to try and stop them, they have it made, they live like royalty and we allow them to fuck us coming and going so why would they ever want that to end, why would they collapse it all like a total economic collapse as some suggest is coming, why would they allow that when they have it so well, makes no sense to me and I think they will do whatever it takes to continue this status quo.

Nature, however, is the wildcard, we dont know what she has in store for us and even the elites cant win that one if she decides to throw a curve ball our way.

Excellent observations, yes the ‘elites’ will always do whatever it takes to continue this status quo. Though what seems like a total economic collapse to very many people may not affect those folk in the least. Our economy is built on cycles of loose and tight money. Hell, that’s where the ‘elites’ make a lot of their money.

nobody does anything to try and stop them

The ptmb have been very adept at making the general population spend their conscious energy on things that, relatively speaking, do not matter, while remaining unconscious of things that do matter.

Their modus operandi is to maintain split psyches in the general population by pumping the dichotomy, and in these ‘modern’ times promoting scientific materialism. The latter promotes an object directed consciousness where the ‘other’ will tend to be taken as a threat.

stillrobertpaulson wrote...

but I have high regard for anyone who can come up with a plan.

That’s different, I’ve always been, and thought most people were rightly suspicious of ‘grand’ plans. (I am pretty sure that BPH would agree that most folk with a 'plan' are likely to be nuts.)

what's your plan for "reshaping the nature of the economy and down-sizing free market capitalism extensively"?

We need a model (of reality) that shows the general population how to integrate the layers of psyche so they work together to produce a healthy person.

When consciousness no longer limits itself to the forms of scientific materialism, there is no telling what consciousness for humans might contain.

Unfortunately or fortunately as the case may be, substantial changes in self-identity are somewhat rare.

looks like the river is going to flood the town, we need shitloads of sandbaggers, but oh dear, however will we pay for them?

if something must be done, it gets done. There's more than enough unproductive capital floating around to front however much is needed.

Sounder wrote:But our economic system is designed to pit us against each other. It is so because our split model of reality has led to scientific materialism and that will always and forever, as long as it hold sway on our imaginations, treat the ‘other’ as a threat.

Disagree.

Our economic system allows both for competition and cooperation, as we see fit.

The opportunities for cooperation are infinite, and within the current system.

We choose.

Much like this forum.

And now, back to the show!

Fwiw..interesting 2014 Gallup poll as to the worry trend wrt the state of the environment.....



..and climate change is way down there below environment in terms of priority fear...