rigorousintuition.ca

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American Dream wrote:compared2what? wrote:

I couldn't live with myself if I didn't post a brief public service announcement about the potential unsafety of using the RST techniques for purging anger recommended by Elnora Van Winkle, referenced earlier and discussed here.

First of all, I want to make it clear that I'm not by any means harshing on or condemning her work on a wholesale basis. I wish I'd known her, actually. She wrote some truth, for which she really had an exceptional gift. And she clearly wasn't motivated by anything other than the wish to help others. However, her science is not scientific, to put it mildly. Although in itself, that's no crime, imo, because it still has metaphorical value. Plus, very important, I want to emphasize that I don't think using the methods she suggests on an every-now-and-again basis would be very likely to hurt anyone at all. On the contrary, it would probably be good for most of them.

But using them in the way she recommends just has one million and one kinds of potential health risk attached to it, depending on individual medical factors. And that's sadly that, I'm (virtually) certain, though I can't really say much more with any kind of authority. Because, um, I'm not a doctor. (And even if I were, I wouldn't practice medicine over the internet on the RI forum.) It's more like: I do know enough about neuroscience to see that she's presenting a very shaky hypothesis, the premise of which is fifty years out of date. And while I don't much about medicine, I do know that in a general way, any program that calls for you regularly to get extremely worked up -- either physically or emotionally -- with no introductory routine, no gradual wind-down, and no supervision probably isn't safe for everyone and might be pretty dangerous for some.

I should probably disclose that I'm a little extra-concerned, and maybe without cause, because the reason I know even that much is that I've seen stuff that was very similar being used in cult settings. And I know that the reason that cults do it is that it leaves people in a more trance-state-inductible condition than they'd otherwise be. So I totally concede that I'm way too easily alarmed about almost anything I learned in that context. But nevertheless, I find that alarming. Which I'll now try to put aside, for long enough to say:

While t's probably no issue at all, unless you're going full-out anger-redirective several times a day, just to be cautious, if there's a doctor you trust, and you're using RST, you should consult him or her about it, or get a check up, or something along those lines.

I'd agree that RST is not 'the cure" for all people at all times. Without claiming to know everything their is to know about RST, I would say it is similar to other emotional release techniques that I have practiced both as a participant in group and individual sessions,

For the right person, at the right time in their life, venting anger in a focused way could be part of a liberatory process. It's quite true that it could also be used in a culty setting to make the person psychologically vulnerable and manipulable and part of the cult's "group mind".

There's also the danger that the simple venting of feeling- any feeling- won't really get it, and that one could actually stay really stuck despite their ability to emote on the drop of a dime.

So, yes, cautions are in order, but for someone who is at the right place in their own journey, able to contain and focus these sorts of techniques and to avoid manipulations by others, it could also be quite good.

That's a large part of what I said. So I'm glad we agree that far. It has the potential for significantly greater medical risks than simply being ineffective, however. And I want to make it clear that I was calling attention to that, and not just to its not being right for everyone.

I mean: No therapeutic process is right for everyone, clearly.


But they're not all inherently prone to leaving people in a physiological state of heightened hypnotic suggestibility. They're not all capable of causing any one of several kinds of cardio-pulmonary crisis -- possibly severe or even fatal -- in people with both known or undetected preexisting conditions. And they're not all capable of causing psychotic breaks in people who practice them as prescribed by their originator, unsupervised and at the rates and with the intensity that she recommends.

RST is. Van Winkle clearly had a very, very difficult life. And she equally clearly had a very, very generous spirit, as well as an exceptionally strong commitment to -- corny as it sounds -- the principles of liberty and justice for all, to which most people, including most therapists, barely give more than a stray thought. I don't for one second think she would have knowingly engaged in deceptive practices. It's obvious that she wouldn't have.

However, she was not entirely well herself, as best as I can tell. Nor is all of what she writes literally true. For example, she was not a neuroscientist in any but a nominal sense, if that. She had an MA in biochemistry, and had worked as a laboratory adjunct to a psychiatrist named Arnold Friedhof in the early 1960s on several studies, including the later-invalidated one on which her therefore non-viable hypothesis -- which she presents as fact -- was premised. Her work is, to me, both inspiring and heartbreaking. Because as a theorist and as a writer, she strikes me as having had powers of insight that border on genius, some of which is evident in her expression of them.


That's an incredible testament to her and also to the resiliency of the human spirit, given the dual handicaps of whatever issues she started out with and the something like forty years of various institutionalized psychiatric abuses she endured as a result of them. That she was able, in psychological terms, to broker a deal that enabled her to feel free of her status as a mental-patient in the last decade of her life by developing and practicing RST, is an awe-inducing, moving thing that makes me much happier than it does sad.


That doesn't make her claims for it correct, even wrt to herself, necessarily, in factual terms. She came up with a coping mechanism that kept her out of hospitals and a narrative that restored her self-respect. And those are amazing achievements, by any standard. But she really doesn't appear to have been a fully functional person. There are no signs of employment, or interaction with the professional community, or -- in fact -- any kind of community subsequent to the introduction of RST in 1999, for instance. There are also no signs that she was qualified to speak with authority about anyone other than herself. And there are not only signs but fairly certain proofs that she wasn't qualified to speak as an authority on a lot of the issues she speaks to. As you say, and as I said, the venting of redirected anger can be and is a therapeutically beneficial process for many people. I'm all for it. But it doesn't do what Elnora Van Winkle says it will, or anything remotely close to it. My guess would be that she probably had some passing involvement in a psychiatric cult that was more high pressure than AA at some point herself, because while I don't believe that she made the bolded parts of this statement...

Redirecting self therapy (free) permanently relieves depression and brings full recovery from bipolar disorders, mood disorders, co-dependency, alcoholism, all addictions, aggressive or violent behavior, nervous and mental illness, psychosomatic illness, symptoms of Parkinson's disease, and Alzheimer's disease. The self therapy is proven to work because it is based on the discovery of the biology of mental illness and violence published in a peer-reviewed medical journal and has been %100 effective for all who used the therapy as described.

...with ill intent, ordinarily speaking, you only ever hear those claims, which are always false, in conjunction with the major-red flag represented by the last clause from heavy-duty cults. Which promise to cure all afflictions as a recruitment tactic, then deal with their inability to keep that promise by blaming (and often harshly punishing) the afflicted for it. On the grounds that since their techniques have been proven to work and are %100 effective, the persistence of your terminal cancer (or whatever) can only be due to whatever willful personal flaws prevented you from using it "as described."

Again, I see no sign that she was trying to use cult tactics. That's actually why I doubt she came up with that formulation on her own. Because an honest and well-meaning person who hadn't been exposed to it, would be very unlikely to say any of those things. For the obvious reasons: It's not possible permanently to cure that many ailments with one, simple method (or even many complex methods, in some cases); and there aren't any treatments that have been proven to work on most of them. If there were, big pharma would either be getting even richer than they're already getting or they would have bought the patents, locked them in a safe, and thrown the key into the ocean. Quite apart from which, RST certainly hadn't been proven to work on any of them.

I reiterate what I said in my first post, with which you concur in yours, and about which I don't think there's any very serious contention: Exercises that involve venting projected pent-up emotion, including anger, have real therapeutic value.

But using them in the program and for the purposes described on Elnora Van Winkle's site is not safe. And it could be dangerous. Period. That's not qualifiable by reference to other, similar techniques. So please be careful not to give the appearance that you're minimizing its risks. They're real. I wouldn't have brought the subject up in the terms that I did if it were just a question of opinion or preference. I don't want to bogart the thread on this any further. But it would be irresponsible to leave any inadvertently created ambiguity on the subject unaddressed. Not safe is not safe is not safe. And always will be. There's just no getting around that, and nothing good to be gained by trying.

c2w, please be clear that I am in no way arguing for RST. Indeed, my conception of it is a bit hazy given that I haven't read or thought about it for many months, until now.

Here's my question: If we agree that abreaction carries some danger, both physiological and psychological, for certain people at certain times, what are the notable points of difference with other psychological techniques which utilize emotional releasing, that you think warrant special concern?

Please understand that I have no horse in this race- when I read about RST before it seemed to me to be a diy technique that was rough and probably not supported by a lot of systematic evaluation, even though it was promoted as somewhat of a panacea. Since we both agree that these sorts of practices can sometimes have value but sometimes be perilous, I'd like to hear more about what risks you feel are unique, and/or uniquely strong, in this particular technique...

Brigit wrote:I understand that when we revisit memories we add another layer, but these layers are transparent! I am so sorry I have rambled. If the plan was to have me mute and to erase my memory I would say they were working with the wrong medium. I have been avoiding this for a number of days; it is all or nothing when it comes to these things. I have thoroughly exhausted myself and now my heart is pounding because I am going to take a leap of faith and send. I am too tired not to. There is so much more that is extraordinary. Brigit

Dear Brigit,

Your posting is an enormous leap of faith and trust and I pray you won't feel or experience any regret for your courage. I salute you in taking the lid off the pressure cooker and spilling the contents. I knew when we first re-connected at 17 and 15 (16?) that you had experienced events far beyond even what my brother and I were then acting out and that was right around 1969. The McGowan series you sent me was brilliantly written, deeply disturbing and riveting but the fallout I experienced was second hand. I can't imagine what it feels like to read that history, known people connected to it, and been there at that time, as well as being a victim of some of those who orchestrated such events. And, on top of that, unsealing your grandfather's archives for the first time, and by yourself.

I do know what it's like to uncover dark family secrets and when the truth you've always known is spoken, others turn their backs. I don't think you'll experience that in writing this here, and the brave desperation you must feel will be heard and honored.

On so open a board in the electronic playing field, I'll send you a virtual bouquet of flowers from 'Annie's Annuals' (being myself an isolate who doesn't yet venture back into shops, thank you LiliPat) to remind you how much you're loved.

Cordelia

American Dream wrote:c2w, please be clear that I am in no way arguing for RST. Indeed, my conception of it is a bit hazy given that I haven't read or thought about it for many months, until now.

Here's my question: If we agree that abreaction carries some danger, both physiological and psychological, for certain people at certain times, what are the notable points of difference with other psychological techniques which utilize emotional releasing, that you think warrant special concern?

Please understand that I have no horse in this race- when I read about RST before it seemed to me to be a diy technique that was rough and probably not supported by a lot of systematic evaluation, even though it was promoted as somewhat of a panacea. Since we both agree that these sorts of practices can sometimes have value but sometimes be perilous, I'd like to hear more about what risks you feel are unique, and/or uniquely strong, in this particular technique...

Thanks for your nice response. And please, please understand that I didn't mean to suggest that you did have a horse in the race. I apologize if I gave that impression. I just wanted to make it clear that wrt RST specifically, I wasn't just saying following her prescriptions "as described" was of questionable merit, but rather that it was unsafe.

I'd like to follow up more, too. But...Would group conscience and/or the OP -- that's you, lbo! -- prefer to have that discussion that continue here or elsewhere? I don't want to hijack. And since the subject matter is neither quite on- nor quite off-topic, I don't really know what the better way to proceed is.

lbo? And others? Feedback?

ON EDIT: A lot of it basically boils down to what guidelines there are for assessing the trustworthiness of a therapist and/or therapeutic technique according to particular sets of criteria. So I don't know. It would probably be of interest here. And it's of some practical value anywhere. But I don't know if that means it belongs here.

Let me know.

I experienced loads of therapy techniques. Most of them helped in some way or another.

My most healing experineces in therapy that changed my soul forever are the aspects that many therapists would balk at. There is so much abuse by therapists that any time a therapist "touches" a patient, there must be integrity present etc. etc.

So, on to most healing. Touch. Pure, simple, non violent, totally loving touch was so very healing to me and all of my parts. At first, I could not be touched at all. Could not even brush past me without and extreme reaction on my part. Either fear or anger would result.

After months with my therapist, one of my parts asked if he could feel what her skin felt like. He had never felt nice skin and wondered what a mother type would feel like. He extended his pointer finger almost like he was afraid a bomb would go off. He stood a distance away, stretched out his arm and then his finger and then very gently touched my therapist's wrist. At first, he felt the skin and then jumped back like it burned him. Then, he touched her wrist again with his finger, this time for five seconds. He then threw himself to the chair the farthest distance in the room away from her and sobbed. He had never felt nice skin. He had never been held, not once. He cried for an hour and then left.

As the years went by, I joined a group therapy group with this same therapist I saw for individual therapy. There were eight or nine of us in the office. I was the only one there with DID. They all knew about my parts but were used to me. When I introduced myself that first group therapy session, I made it very clear that none of them could touch me ever at all. They hugged each other at the end of group, and I stood to the side never getting involved in the hugging.

One day, the parts asked if my therapist could sit next to them on the couch instead of her in her regular chair. She said okay and the group members all shifted and she was sitting next to me. After about 10 minutes they asked her if they could sit right next to her with the edges of our clothes touching but told her they did not want to have sex with her. She group members thought this was interesting and just watched. She said she would never want to be sexual either. So, as the years went on they sat next to her at every group. Just sat there. Really close but not like a romantic sitting next to someone. Kind of like the sitting close the way someone would do on a crowded bus.

I was never touched nicely as a child. No one hugged. No one looked at each other nicely. No warmth.

So, over the years, every single part would come out in group and "sit" next to my therapist as the other group members talked. The parts did not trust the others in group to sit next to them but they loved my therapist.

I don't think that anything in life can replace what it feels like to sit next to someone who loves you and has no expectations, no hate, no sexual feelings or anything bad. I could feel the love. It would wash over me.

The scared parts would have a brave part come out in group and ask to switch places to sit next to the therapist. Then, the scared part would come out and sit there. Even the tough boys would get a turn in and sit next to the therapist.

I will never forget that soft mother skin and only mothers have. It's not the texture of the skin, it is the love that is in the skin that feels good.

That was my best part of therapy and the best healing technique.

Brigit. I am so so so glad you are here. You wrote some things that took the words right out of my mouth. Thank you.

LilyPatToo wrote:lightningBugout said:

I do however, see the differences between the phenomenological reports of survivors of childhood TBMC and people claiming electronic harassment as even greater than I did previously, even if someone like Barracuda chooses to argue that the two phenomena may be lateral in their believability.

Though, on the other hand, some of the experiences reported here (thinking of you LPT) are as different from my own as those of 'TIs.'

That, I think, is due to there having been a number of programs run by very different groups for their own reasons, rather than one monolithic Program—at least by the time the MKULTRA era ended. My story is similar to that of other slaves who were used mainly as sex slaves (prostituted). But even within that general group, peoples’ experiences vary quite a bit, depending on how high up the food chain their handlers’ contacts went. I suspect that for every “Presidential model” there were a lot of women (and some men, too) who were bought and sold at much less elevated levels, like me. I’ve known some of them and was forced to work with others whose names I was never told.

And, as I said before, a number of highly credible survivors have reported being used in radiation experiments as well—Valerie Wolfe brought two of them to testify before Clinton’s committee hearings.

Introduction

Victim 1

Victim 2

Like me, they were in early mind control programs as children, used as sex slaves and “lent” to other scientists for really terrible experiments, some of which involved exposure to radiation. And I doubt if it was a coincidence that my ex-husband and also my most recent known handler here in California were scientists working in atomic energy at national laboratories. See Carol Rutz’s book A Nation Betrayed for a number of other examples. It’s been a while since I read it, but I’m pretty sure that some survivors reported programs that were military, some government/intel-run and some seem to have been sold or passed between several programs over many years.

My history is going to vary widely from that of anyone used mainly in military programs, for one example. I’ve met some people with no awareness of having been used in any government programs at all, but who grew up in Cult/cult families and whose sex slavery years were similar to my own. During a period of 6 years I also met what I believe were other victims of Mafia-run human trafficking operations that used mind controlled individuals.

Lots of survivors of an unknown number of programs, some of whom have really complicated histories in multiple programs. That’s one reason why I was glad when we were posting about our individual experiences. Some of the lurkers reading here are survivors and if all they hear about is one sort of experience of growing up in a mind control program, they may not find that corroborating detail that could resonate with them, personally, and set them on the path to understanding hidden parts of their pasts.

LilyPat

Lily, I am your biggest fan and probably should've been a bit more careful with my words. I will PM you more about my own experience but, suffice it to say, I think you're the bestest and i wholly believe you. Ciao, LBO

Wow, I appreciate the courage of all here sharing their personal stories and think it's a testament to the strength and integrity of the board that people feel free to post in such a way. However, being the stick-in-the-mud that I am, I just want to gently remind that there are slightly more private venues where you can initiate these very personal discussions, that were designed to be support group type venues.

OK, that said, I wish you all the best in figuring out your histories and staying on the path to living in the present unbridled by the chains of the past, as long as all remain cognizant of the possible downfalls of treading those paths in public.

Please do forgive my presumptuousness in issuing this reminder, though understand that self interest is not lacking amongst my motives.

Project Willow wrote:Wow, I appreciate the courage of all here sharing their personal stories and think it's a testament to the strength and integrity of the board that people feel free to post in such a way. However, being the stick-in-the-mud that I am, I just want to gently remind that there are slightly more private venues where you can initiate these very personal discussions, that were designed to be support group type venues.

OK, that said, I wish you all the best in figuring out your histories and staying on the path to living in the present unbridled by the chains of the past, as long as all remain cognizant of the possible downfalls of treading those paths in public.

Please do forgive my presumptuousness in issuing this reminder, though understand that self interest is not lacking amongst my motives.

Yes, by all means protect yourself and be careful what you put out there. That being said, I do hope to hear more from people who have carefully considered the decision to share info publicly. I've been following this thread closely, and it has been enormously educational. I've been assimilating a lot of info about MC lately, and I hope that sometime soon I'll feel informed enough that I can start to educate others around me. I don't have personal experience with any of this like so many of you do, but I do want to help the cause. Human trafficking and experimentation absolutely sicken me to my core.

Deleted

compared2what? wrote:

American Dream wrote:c2w, please be clear that I am in no way arguing for RST. Indeed, my conception of it is a bit hazy given that I haven't read or thought about it for many months, until now.

Here's my question: If we agree that abreaction carries some danger, both physiological and psychological, for certain people at certain times, what are the notable points of difference with other psychological techniques which utilize emotional releasing, that you think warrant special concern?

Please understand that I have no horse in this race- when I read about RST before it seemed to me to be a diy technique that was rough and probably not supported by a lot of systematic evaluation, even though it was promoted as somewhat of a panacea. Since we both agree that these sorts of practices can sometimes have value but sometimes be perilous, I'd like to hear more about what risks you feel are unique, and/or uniquely strong, in this particular technique...

Thanks for your nice response. And please, please understand that I didn't mean to suggest that you did have a horse in the race. I apologize if I gave that impression. I just wanted to make it clear that wrt RST specifically, I wasn't just saying following her prescriptions "as described" was of questionable merit, but rather that it was unsafe.

I'd like to follow up more, too. But...Would group conscience and/or the OP -- that's you, lbo! -- prefer to have that discussion that continue here or elsewhere? I don't want to hijack. And since the subject matter is neither quite on- nor quite off-topic, I don't really know what the better way to proceed is.

lbo? And others? Feedback?

ON EDIT: A lot of it basically boils down to what guidelines there are for assessing the trustworthiness of a therapist and/or therapeutic technique according to particular sets of criteria. So I don't know. It would probably be of interest here. And it's of some practical value anywhere. But I don't know if that means it belongs here.

Let me know.

I think the topic you've raised is very important and personallly want to see it get explored. I have no problem with it happening here. But it might make sense, for posterity, to start a new thread....?

I think the relationship between plant spirits (including gardening) and healing from trauma is absolutely central. But then I suppose writing about that within this thread only stands to make MC survivors look even nuttier.......

Actually, Free did begin a new thread on the method: TRE -New Trauma Healing Breakthrough method.

Brigit, I really appreciate the effort it must have taken for you to post about what you've discovered about your family. The first time I did that my effort was far less detailed/comprehensive, but it still left me upset for days afterward. There was a huge feeling of relief from unbearable tension, though, and that kept me going--talking to family members and reading online until my eyes crossed. But it's now just over 5 years since I publicly "outed" myself and I can honestly tell you that it gets easier as time goes on.

That said, I think I should also tell you that if you have formal programming, there's a good chance that some of it is designed to shut you up. I found myself in the hospital shortly after finding out about the mind control programs. After I got out, I went right back to reading the information and, for the first time in my life, developed severe vertigo. Eventually I learned that this is a common pattern when a slave begins to wake up to what's been operating in their life. The vertigo is believed to be the result of what's called "spin programming" in which a small child is traumatized until they dissociate, then put into a bag that's hung from a ceiling hook and spun until they're physically sick while being threatened with what will happen if they "tell."

You have my profound sympathy for the hornet's nest of disbelief, pain and invalidation you've stirred up by your search for answers. That seems to be the price for asking certain forbidden questions in our society. The level of entrenched denial is breathtaking and you're very fortunate to have a husband who at least is willing to inform himself. Mine is not, despite being a basically kind person in all other ways and I've managed to come to terms with that, though it's painful and discouraging.

I think that you've made the right decision in sharing what you've learned. You have access to primary information that may yield clues about the national security state's modern era beginnings. And you have first-hand information about some of the consequences suffered by children who grew up in a family where there was collusion with the deep state going on. The more people who come forward and volunteer their information, the better the chances that it will provide missing pieces of the puzzle to an investigative reporter or researcher who can some day expose the entire rotten mess.

Due to most people's skepticism about anything psychic being real, you're likely to have your entire story questioned if it includes psy abilities. But, if you can bear the frequent invalidation that it invites, I encourage you to continue to be honest about that aspect. Because I know (first hand) that this was a big part of some of the programs and that it's still considered important enough for massive amounts of disinformation to be circulated even now, so many years later. By allowing ourselves to be muzzled by jeering skeptics/naysayers, we risk removing a vital piece of the puzzle from consideration.

All in all, to out oneself as a survivor of secret state experimentation is to invite invalidation at best and extreme hostility and personal attacks at worst. Growing a thick enough skin to be able to tolerate that kind of abuse isn't easy. Most of us were sexually abused and have had to struggle to form appropriate boundaries at all, let alone ones that can withstand public ridicule. So lean on fellow survivors as needed and remember that you have the right to retreat from the field of battle any time that you need to do so.

Thank you for your courage and especially for sharing details--it's only in details that most of us find our personal wake-up call. Without those first-hand glimpses into these hidden horrors, most survivors are unlikely to be able to make sense of their own pasts, given all the blank spots and mysteries and programming designed to keep us rudderless and drifting.

LilyPat

C2W wrote:

I reiterate what I said in my first post, with which you concur in yours, and about which I don't think there's any very serious contention: Exercises that involve venting projected pent-up emotion, including anger, have real therapeutic value.

But using them in the program and for the purposes described on Elnora Van Winkle's site is not safe. And it could be dangerous. Period. That's not qualifiable by reference to other, similar techniques. So please be careful not to give the appearance that you're minimizing its risks. They're real. I wouldn't have brought the subject up in the terms that I did if it were just a question of opinion or preference. I don't want to bogart the thread on this any further. But it would be irresponsible to leave any inadvertently created ambiguity on the subject unaddressed. Not safe is not safe is not safe. And always will be. There's just no getting around that, and nothing good to be gained by trying.

LBO wrote:

I think the topic you've raised is very important and personallly want to see it get explored. I have no problem with it happening here. But it might make sense, for posterity, to start a new thread....?

Hi C2W,

Just want to say that I'm very happy that you're posting your questions and views about RST. That way, people reading about it can be exposed to possible pro's and con's and be safer in trying it out, if they choose to do so.

I tend to approach healing and self-healing methods kind of like a drowning person would - I grab at any log or piece of debris that floats by that seems the least bit promising as a way to get to a safer and better place.

Not to say that RST is, by any means, a piece of debris, I think expressing anger therapeutically is in some way key.

I've noticed in the past though, with other techniques as well, that I have a tendency to do them in my own way and they help me tremendously, but the same technique, done in a fundamentalist way (that many times is the way being promoted) might be problematic.

What I like about RST is that it is a Self-Healing technique, therefore self-directed and self-empowering, and doesn't involve expenditure of resources.

Elinora's claims of all encompassing cures sound exaggerated but I do feel that doing anger work (maybe I should stop calling what I do RST because I haven't followed her whole protocol) has helped me quite a bit and I like it, also because I'm a martial artist, and it's a way to combine therapy and working out.

Anyway, there's more to say on this and I'd like to discuss it further. I'd like to propose that we move the discussion to the original thread that I posted about it (unless you have a better idea). Ideally, it would be great to recopy your, my and AD's relevant posts from this thread onto that one, but I'm not sure, logistically and technically how to do that.

I'll await a post or pm from you or AD about the best way to transfer the posts.

New Anger Therapy Method
http://rigorousintuition.ca/board/viewt ... hlight=rst


LlilPat- The new thread I posted is about a different method -TRE- that involves invoking the bodies natural tremoring (shaking) response to release bottled-up after-effects of trauma.


C2W- Thanks for the apology you made to me in a previous thread. It meant a lot to me.