Which gender are you?

American Dream · Post by **American Dream** » Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:24 pm

Some of the friends I'm talking about might possibly be called "transmen" but most are just gender-bendy people...

brainpanhandler · Post by **brainpanhandler** » Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:58 pm

slomo » Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:07 am wrote:
82_28 » 01 Dec 2015 02:06 wrote:PW, for the company I work for, all of my bosses are women. It's a nationwide also worldwide company. There is no gender gap in pay. Women get promoted far more often than men. There is precisely NO misogyny in this huge company. Not only is it not tolerated, but doesn't seem to be a thing even if it were tolerated. Even bartending for the past whatever years I did it, there was no misogyny -- more camaraderie than anything else. When was the last time you had a job in which you witnessed any of your claims? At 40 years of age I think you're full of shit. Sorry, but the world you envision outside of your art colony does not exist the way you think it does. It's good to be aware of the possibilities if it did exist -- but it doesn't in real life.
I concur with this observation, ...

Heh? That misogyny does not exist?

seemslikeadream · Post by **seemslikeadream** » Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:05 pm

because of this thread I watched Dr. Phil yesterday....divorced parents raising a 4 yr old ....mother raising the little human being as a boy....the father raising the little one as a girl....at birth it was discovered the little one had a odd xy thing ....now the parents think they can with enough interrogation and girl/boy clothes...girl/boy toys "help" the child decide what he/she wants to be.

Luther Blissett · Post by **Luther Blissett** » Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:22 pm

I too mostly know trans men, gender queer, or androgyne people who were born women. I only known a handful of trans women, and as I stated before, none fit the "glamoury" autogynephilia (as far as I know) mentioned elsewhere on this thread. So my perspective is skewed towards sensitivity for the human rights of trans people who were born women.

I'm always going to be a pacifist first and so the physical safety of people (in this case, cis women) from violence perpetrated against them by trans people is going to trump umbrella trans rights for me. Same goes for issues I can't readily agree with like the sterilization of children. That is a really tough call because one sees a lot of children in emotional pain, but there must be effective therapies that can avoid the hormonal route until adulthood. I know a lot of the suicides we see emerge out of this grey area so I hope there is a nuanced way to avoid this in the future.

My partner hosted an event on Sunday afternoon and so it was me and a dozen women in my apartment. I had been fretting about this subject with her since the start of this thread - Project Willow has swayed me further from intersectionality than where I was when it started - but she has held her ground firmly for trans rights. She broached the subject with the women who were there - all intellectuals and feminists - to see if anyone felt the same as I, but most were confused. One said that she had internalized fears around some trans men and wondered aloud what effects hormone treatments have on woman transitioning to a man, admitting that she had felt physically threatened and intimidated by trans men in the past.

Unless anyone was afraid to speak up, all felt that not only were trans women more "on their team", but that as a whole they had resigned themselves to a life facing "the worst of both worlds" and extra marginalization. Some of the fringe ideas within trans politics were definitely rejected - especially threats of violence and erasure of women's anatomy - but those who spoke up said they hadn't really ever heard a trans woman say or seen them do those things. Those who didn't say anything may have felt differently.

I didn't participate in the conversation, just listened, so I wasn't able to clarify if the general consensus was due to our community, our age range, or any other factor.

guruilla · Post by **guruilla** » Tue Dec 01, 2015 2:59 pm

Two questions:

Can't misogyny be practiced by women as well as men?

Doesn't the existence of misandry (which at this point may be easily as prevalent as misogyny, and is way more socially acceptable) show that the System as is, while it may play men against women and vice versa, is equally demeaning and oppressive to all (save possibly a tiny oligarchical few)?

One more: Is anyone going to say there's nothing suspicious about the massive increase in unnecessary hysterectomies and (since A Jolie) breast-removals practiced by a military-medical industrial complex for profit?

I think there is a war on biology itself, beginning with the female body; and that there are deep but also quite obvious psychological reasons for it, besides parapolitical ones.

American Dream · Post by **American Dream** » Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:14 pm

guruilla » Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:59 pm wrote:Two questions:

Doesn't the existence of misandry (which at this point may be easily as prevalent as misogyny, and is way more socially acceptable) show that the System as is, while it may play men against women and vice versa, is equally demeaning and oppressive to all (save possibly a tiny oligarchical few)?

Can't you lay out a more reasoned- and factually based- argument than that to make your case that "the System as is, while it may play men against women and vice versa, is equally demeaning and oppressive to all"?

To me it sounds ridiculously simplistic, bringing to mind the very worst of the old school Left...

backtoiam · Post by **backtoiam** » Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:27 pm

americandream wrote:
Can't you lay out a more reasoned- and factually based- argument than that to make your case that "the System as is, while it may play men against women and vice versa, is equally demeaning and oppressive to all"?

To me it sounds ridiculously simplistic, bringing to mind the very worst of the old school Left...

Lighting struck this man between the eyes and dumbfounded him again...

guruilla · Post by **guruilla** » Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:40 pm

Sorry AD, and nothing personal, but I blocked your posts a little while ago so I only saw that one because backtoiam quoted it. While I hope I'm not someone who only preaches to his own choir, I also try not to get roped into arguments that go nowhere slowly. Maybe if your question had started with "Can" instead of "Can't" it might seem like a sincere attempt at dialogue, rather than a ragging.

backtoiam · Post by **backtoiam** » Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:51 pm

It would not matter guruilla. If he cannot understand that a "system" that exploits people is oppressive to everybody in the system then he needs to rerack the pool table, get some sleep, and try it again later. This is fundamental. Everybody in an oppressive system is what?

Oppressed perhaps? He has run out of antagonizing angles.

American Dream · Post by **American Dream** » Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:01 pm

OK- so no support for the pretty incredible claim that " "the System as is, while it may play men against women and vice versa, is equally demeaning and oppressive to all".

Once again it seems like Male Supremacy, White Supremacy and all the rest are negated, because why?

I see instead a multiplicity of castes and layers, stratified in complex ways by many, many social institutions- but never would I deny that women are an oppressed group.

backtoiam · Post by **backtoiam** » Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:08 pm

Let me help you with that right quick. You flipped the deck on guru just then.

americandream wrote:
Can't you lay out a more reasoned- and factually based- argument than that to make your case that "the System as is, while it may play men against women and vice versa, is equally demeaning and oppressive to all"?

To me it sounds ridiculously simplistic, bringing to mind the very worst of the old school Left...

Now. you seem to be asking a completely different question from your last post. What is the answer? You are playing with context. I'm bored today. So I noticed. And you added your white folk trash.

American Dream · Post by **American Dream** » Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:16 pm

Maybe you just have to be a white man who is somehow "beyond politics" and/or "beyond left and right" to just "know"?

backtoiam · Post by **backtoiam** » Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:19 pm

Nope. you kicked your own ass today.

backtoiam · Post by **backtoiam** » Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:28 pm

you are a fun date and actually i had a good time. but right now i have to go do some things. you have to find a better way to defend the things that cannot be defended. you do that well until people ask you for debate and then the house of cards collapses. i'm done with this for now. but actually i have enjoyed the semantic gymnastics because it gives me practice. i mean you no harm. me and you are playing semantic dueling together. today, its a touche. ok?

Iamwhomiam · Post by **Iamwhomiam** » Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:47 pm

It seems to me you needn't provoke an argument with AD, backtoiam. Chase him down and then complain you haven't the time?
How about next time you feel so motivated, please remember it's just as annoying to some of us to read your tiresome provocations. So many wasted words.

Try to pick your discussion skills up a notch.

Thank you.

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