rigorousintuition.ca

hi c2w? thanks for the reply. i was more asking about this:

'If you're asking what, in my subjective opinion, some routes to attaining what I regard to be standard practical know-how for a Person of the Left are, I can answer the question with due humility in those terms. '

since sometimes it seems you are pretty aggravated that people are doing what they are doing. which seems to imply you'd rather they were doing something else. thus my query.

i personally very seldom have any idea what people should be doing. when i have an idea about it, it is very seldom that that person would be at all receptive to my ideas. thus my curiosity (no doubt abetted by the close proxitimy of the cat.)

Does any of that relate to the children of Iraq?

Does any of that relate to the poor in Appalachia?

How can any of that be applied effectively to alter their circumstances?

Of course most of what you have cited are just catchphrases that can mean anything at any given time which is to say they mean nothing. That is one of the cornerstones of such nutters as Chopra, Dyer, Redfield, Browne, Tolle et al.

There is also a strain of blaming the victim in much of that which is another common theme in much of the New Thought, New Age movement.

I have plenty of criticism of the New Age movement, particularly the "you create your own reality" meme when it's taken to its absurd extreme (a la "The Secret"). It's one of my pet peeves, and I've had plenty of heated conversations with New Agers on that topic.

But the foundations of what has become termed New Age -- expansion of consciousness, planetary brother- and sisterhood, spirituality, meditation, "green" living -- are crucial to the problems you bring up.

One can criticize particular strains of new age belief while acknowledging the positive aspects. People who criticize meditation as a waste of time are missing the point. Meditation and other spiritual practices can help people to become better human beings -- and that, in turn, helps everyone.

It's easy to paint those who pursue spiritual pursuits as detached or unconcerned with real-life issues, but my experience has shown that the most committed and effective people are often very spiritual.

Chop wood, carry water.

It would be interesting to know how many self indentified "New Agers" or people sympathetic to New Age ideals or methods are against the occupation in Iraq and the general harshness of the present "system" as compared to other groups.

It would also be interesting to know how much they financially and personally contribute to endeavors that seek to rectify these injustices.

(on edit) My guess would be higher then the "norm".

I came across this post earlier in the thread. I dont know if it is true, but you seemed to be much calmer when you wrote it. I felt it deserved my best response. It is also for c2w - I had a reply for you but feel this dialogue turned out much clearer and cleaner.... kind regards S

The excessive individuality breaks bonds between people on all sorts of levels.

However, sometimes those bonds can be remade in clearer, cleaner and more powerful ways, and the actions generated from the same set of people suddenly become MORE focused and powerful

Collective action has always been the greatest potential force for change, and although mostly it gets co opted there are times when it has worked very well.

Perhaps , though, before the action takes place, there has to be an alignment of people on for want of a better word, a spiritual (small s) level.

The new age movement seems to be very focussed on individuality, and ignores the collective side of human life, no man is an island and all that.

How about there are more than two distinctions - as well as individual and collective, there is also inter-dependent. For example, sometimes the most rational thing for every individual actor in a situation to do is actually INSANE when looked at from a systemic viewpoint. Are you familiar with The "Tragedy of the Commons" from systems thinking. It is really worth thinking about, as it has IMHO profound implications for how people work together and the limits of individuality

Most religious movements (at some point) have an element of social justice about them, even if its only concerned with looking after their own kind. The individualist nature of new ageism doesn't seem to have collective action or social justice as a high priority much of the time. Sure harmonic convergences are good, and doing whatever when they happen probably does have an effect on the planets well being,

I know a LOT of people who have been very involved in New Age / spiritual stuff, self included. There are many of these people who are getting / have become VERY politicised, who are very aware of the trend towards fascism.

Frontier researchers like Sheldrake are pointing to areas similar to some Shamanic wisdom - that as well as objective and subjective realities, there is a "third world" - the realm where thoughts are tangible things and that a change enacted in this realm can have huge effects in the objective world.

BUT

There aren't many new age soup kitchens for example.

On the other hand, many soup kitchens are run by less than entirely clear organisations, eg salvation Army (sing for your supper)

It isn't just new age either, there is a massive trend in the west to individualize people and their problems. It seems to me that while therapy became the thing to do in the west, in the east, well Eastern Europe anyway, there was no one telling you about how to pacify your inner child or something.

I disagree - there has always been an absolutely enormous interest in spirituality in Eastern Europe; e.g. they are far more receptive to discussing alternative medicine, energy healing and meditation broadly speaking than Westerners.

In Eastern Europe, people were unhappy, and they had a good look around at what was making them unhappy. Hence massive popular uprisings in the late 80s early 90s.

A different take is that they realised that they deserved better than what they were told by their political "masters" and took action consistent with that.

In the west people looked inward and the whole cultures connection with anything other than shopping therapy disappeared.

Make a distinction between looking in the mirror like Narcissus and "looking within" - getting beyond one's superficial responses, quieting the chatter of the mind to allow greater discernment to take place etc. BushCo are pushing society in the direction of the first. Tolle et al are inviting people to take the other path. When I read his work in an already relaxed state of mind, my perceptions feel clear and clean and super-charged. I think less but much more focused. I find myself taking clearer more focused less wasteful actions e.g instead of being angry, I will be clear - and take a more compassionate, inclusive and FASTER action.

Maybe the reason depression has become such a big deal is because people know the world is fucked up, and their culture is causing it - but prozac and talking about it, or realizing that your worries for the world are negatives you have to overcome, is not doing anything to change that situation.

Most people do not know what to do about depression and there is huge Pharma-> media -> Medics pressure to "take the little pill". There are areas of West Belfast where there is > 70% of the adults on prozac.

Really good therapy - like NLP or CBT can be utterly transformative for these people - again make a distinction between that and "counselling" which is some numpty basically asking you rote questions and empathising with how shite it is!

Really if the state of the world at the moment doesn't bring you down a bit or upset you a bit, then there is probably something wrong with you.

Surely to a point - is this not just a question of what motivates oneself to do the best one can and to BE SPECIFIC - look at what you can to to make the biggest impact - and also to develop wisdom and discernment - to know WHERE to apply the smallest force for the biggest systemic effect - "trim-tabbing" as we used to call it.

The other thing is that external reality doesn't care about your feelings - and more and more people are getting to realise that they can create more of the life they truly care about (and for most people that DOES include things like justice and peace and honour) - and you do not have to be feeling good all the time while you are doing it.

But dealing with yourself to make your feelings about things better doesn't actually make things better. And if you're alright jack...

Being angry does not change anything either though - who says you always need anger as a motivator or enabler?

Any real spirituality connects you to the world, and to people in it, and motivates you to act out of your concerns for what you are connected to.

Beautifully expressed.
For me, when I read Tolle, I experience myself as not separate from the world and full of compassion for all living things and that compassion is the place for me from which "Right Action" springs

Oh dear. All I can think of are the SWP tossers from my University days, who seemed to live in a world of "dangers" - "that's a "dangerous idea" was their catchphrase - EVERYTHING was an example of the repression of the masses. You know, I can just imagine you following their path - by the time they were in their thirties , most of these Trot wankers were bigging it up as yuppie commodity traders in the City. I can absolutely imagine you doing the same. I asked one about her "shift". She said "Anyone who is under thirty and not a communist has no heart - anyone who is still a communist over thirty has no brain"

Did you want to go beyond internet musings and visit? Free lodging good local food but you are obligated to carry your weight.

As one who has refused nearly every accoutrement of Empire and lived closer to the bone than most all Americans (recognising this as folly compared to the rest of the world) I would take what you say as an insult but more importantly it is wholly inaccurate. And most importantly can we forget about what one individual is or isn't doing and focus the deeper systemic ills?

Probably not which is quite the point of the OP and quite the prevalence of the legions of self-helpers.

Your quote is stupid.

Your imaginings are as far removed from the truth as you can, well, imagine. That's if you can. Offer stands. You won't take it. For logistical reasons foremost I understand. But then again it might also shake you.

Sedona

Shasta

Taos

Boulder

Asheville

Ashland

Bisbee

Eureka Springs (Even in the sticks)

Etcetera

Everywhere

Where

We find

Turquoise, crystals, mystics and

Seminar-Speak

We also find...

Let's compare notes at these and other places of your choosing.

First hand experiential knowledge.

The above locales are meccas of New-Age acolytes.

What is life like there?

What will you see if you take a long visit?

chlamor wrote:.

The above locales are meccas of New-Age acolytes.

What is life like there?

What will you see if you take a long visit?

And how about if the world took this visit ?

Would it be a worse place ?

One things for sure, we certainly wouldnt hear as much moaning from the likes of you or I

At least not in its current form

slimmouse wrote:

chlamor wrote:.

The above locales are meccas of New-Age acolytes.

What is life like there?

What will you see if you take a long visit?

And how about if the world took this visit ?

Would it be a worse place ?

One things for sure, we certainly wouldnt hear as much moaning from the likes of you or I

At least not in its current form

"The world?"

Having been to all the places I've listed for more than just a "day trip" I say with no hesitation that "the world" would be booted out of every single one of those locales in short order. Not to mention "the world" wouldn't be able to afford a single week anywhere listed.

And then there's one other really, dirty deep thing...

Imagine East St. Louis shows up in Ashland, OR all of a sudden...

What would happen at even the "earthiest" of locales, say the local food CoOp?

Have you ever been

Wounded and hungry on the city streets

Where ancient mojo hangs in moonless air

And the music of sickness courses through the mists

Black asphalt

Or on the full moon night

When the scars on whores' faces

Glow in the pale and ghostly light

And neon flashes off the crack pipe?

When personal beliefs attempt to twist a righteous anger into something unhealthy or undesirable, outrage subdued, the lone person might find personal peace & individual comfort, but is effectively shirking a duty to rise up against injustices & neglecting their responsibility to act in the name of all humanity.

tKl wrote:Have you ever been

Wounded and hungry on the city streets

Where ancient mojo hangs in moonless air

And the music of sickness courses through the mists

Black asphalt

Or on the full moon night

When the scars on whores' faces

Glow in the pale and ghostly light

And neon flashes off the crack pipe?

One area that I have barely touched upon in discussing all of this as relates to New Age movements and can be seen in an overlapping form in Deep Ecology texts is the profound racism that buttresses much of the New Age thought. Now adherents may cry they are not racists but look again. What is it that we understand to be racism and how does that system get propped up?

What we are witnessing here is New Age societal racism. This entrenched, enduring, and more concealed societal racism does not depend on racist intent in order to exist as a relevant social and political phenomenon. It only needs to produce racially disparate outcomes through the operation of objectively racialized processes. It includes a pivotal failure and/or refusal to acknowledge, address, and reverse, the living (present and future) windfall bestowed on sections of the white community by "past" racist structures, policies and practices that were more willfully and openly discriminatory toward blacks hiding behind such empty lies as "everyone has a sacred choice" or "you become what you focus on" or....

Much of this is in fact nothing more than social Darwinism, the reactionary ideology that biology dictates the form of society, with one's "spiritual evolution" serving as substitute for the biology used by the supremacists.

What's interesting is that those who are the most "spiritually evolved" in the world of New Age often seem to have the fattest wallets. That alone should raise a few flags.

Chlamor plays the race card... didn't see that one coming

This whole self-help philosophy is just part of the narrative of capitalism

- Nothing exists but the atomistic individual.

- There is no society (Margaret Thatcher)

It’s all just used as an excuse to justify the elite’s war on poor and working people. They want us to think that poor people are poor because they’re lazy and stupid. The guy who drives a bus 12 hours a day and still can’t make ends meet for himself or his family is just not ambitious or smart enough. The woman who got raped just brought it upon herself. The black guy who was beaten to death by cops just should have stayed in his own neighborhood. Everyone who is disenfranchised brought it on themselves.

On the other hand, rich people are just wonderful. They “earned” it. They had goals. They “worked hard”. Self-made they are. God loves them.

What I love most about these self-help clowns is that they all act as if there’s nothing at all wrong with the world except ourselves.

I always assumed The Secret was figuring out the way to get born into a wealthy and politically-well-connected family.

Barbara Bush (the elder): “I don’t want to clutter my beautiful mind thinking about the death and destruction in Iraq.”

I am spiritually actualized.

I see My One True Way.

Fuck the rest of you poor dumb bastards if you can't wake up and Get It.

"A magical shift in consciousness is the only hope of humankind; it has always been the only hope of humankind, in every time and epoch, only the enlightened ever are remembered long term, even the greatest kings are forgotten, as only the enlightenment, enlightenment is timeless and real in its ability to transform the human condition. "

Oh boy, guess we oughta go home.

monster wrote:Chlamor plays the race card... didn't see that one coming

Monster responds vacuously.

There is no such thing as the race card except from White exceptionalists.

You still win as my card is only the 2 of spades.

You're holding all of the cards and dealing off the bottom of the deck but hey you've got "The Power of Now" at your bedside along with Oprah to remind you how quaint and self-gratifying this "illusion" is. Don't forget to get to your oneness which is much easier than forgetting to remember to contribute anything of substance.

chlamor wrote:

Oh dear. All I can think of are the SWP tossers from my University days, who seemed to live in a world of "dangers" - "that's a "dangerous idea" was their catchphrase - EVERYTHING was an example of the repression of the masses. You know, I can just imagine you following their path - by the time they were in their thirties , most of these Trot wankers were bigging it up as yuppie commodity traders in the City. I can absolutely imagine you doing the same. I asked one about her "shift". She said "Anyone who is under thirty and not a communist has no heart - anyone who is still a communist over thirty has no brain"

Did you want to go beyond internet musings and visit? Free lodging good local food but you are obligated to carry your weight.

As one who has refused nearly every accoutrement of Empire and lived closer to the bone than most all Americans (recognising this as folly compared to the rest of the world) I would take what you say as an insult but more importantly it is wholly inaccurate. And most importantly can we forget about what one individual is or isn't doing and focus the deeper systemic ills?

Probably not which is quite the point of the OP and quite the prevalence of the legions of self-helpers.

Your quote is stupid.

Your imaginings are as far removed from the truth as you can, well, imagine. That's if you can. Offer stands. You won't take it. For logistical reasons foremost I understand. But then again it might also shake you.

So much ado about so little.

If you don't buy it, chlamor, and if you take offense at Tolle's writings . . . why, don't read his stuff. You are not forced to accept any of it. I suspect those that understand and identify with his work simply have a different outlook than you. That's life, as it stands today.

I will readily admit that Tolle's writings do not suit all. But, they do suit some of us quite well; allow us to delve into it, and explore it more deeply. Curiously, his assertions blend in perfectly with the direction of modern physics (insofar as the creation of mass from mere observation); and, in addition, it goes a very long way toward describing the phenomenon of consciousness.

Don't you think?