FourthBase wrote:I totally get what you're saying, compared. But then again, I was hardly being chivalrous. "Ladies" was obviously meant to be a joke, look at them again. "Gentlemen", OTOH, not such a joke -- they are indeed gentle men.
But the real reason for the "Ladies" and "Gentlemen": The thread asked for random Top 5 heroes... Segregating was my stupid way of sneaking in more than 5. Although it looks like nobody else respected the OP's specs, so...whatevs.
Ain't no big thing. I mean, the systemic oppression of women is a big thing, in most parts of the world. But the way you guys were phrasing your admiration wasn't. More like: It seemed worth remarking that (a) the imbalance was noted belatedly; and (b) accommodated in a little bit of an unnatural manner, which is not an accusation of any kind. We don't live in a world that makes natural accommodation wrt recognizing the ways in which men and women have different standing but comparable worth at all easy for anyone.
Basically, I had noticed from the start of the thread, idly, in what way it reflected gender status quo, just because that's part of the lens through which I see the world, which, in itself, doesn't automatically make it relevant to the topic at hand. An opportunity arrived to pipe up, so I took it.
And I used it to menace everyone with a rolling pin, because I am a horrendous ill-tempered bitch!
It really was just intended to be read and reflected on by anyone who was interested. It's not worth more than that. Chromosomes alone don't confer referee status on me or on anyone, and I wouldn't want the position, even if they did. Though if they did, and I did, I'd say: No flag on play.
And I used it to menace everyone with a rolling pin, because I am a horrendous ill-tempered bitch!
My favorite kind of bitch!!!
Chromosomes alone don't confer referee status on me or on anyone, and I wouldn't want the position, even if they did. Though if they did, and I did, I'd say: No flag on play.
Excellent call!!!
“Joy is a current of energy in your body, like chlorophyll or sunlight,
that fills you up and makes you naturally want to do your best.” - Bill Russell
FourthBase wrote:I totally get what you're saying, compared. But then again, I was hardly being chivalrous. "Ladies" was obviously meant to be a joke, look at them again. "Gentlemen", OTOH, not such a joke -- they are indeed gentle men.
But the real reason for the "Ladies" and "Gentlemen": The thread asked for random Top 5 heroes... Segregating was my stupid way of sneaking in more than 5. Although it looks like nobody else respected the OP's specs, so...whatevs.
Ain't no big thing. I mean, the systemic oppression of women is a big thing, in most parts of the world. But the way you guys were phrasing your admiration wasn't. More like: It seemed worth remarking that (a) the imbalance was noted belatedly; and (b) accommodated in a little bit of an unnatural manner, which is not an accusation of any kind. We don't live in a world that makes natural accommodation wrt recognizing the ways in which men and women have different standing but comparable worth at all easy for anyone.
i stand by my endorsement of Ms. Fitzhugh's "harriet the spy" novels.
- - -
i wore my paperback copies out long before i had ever heard of rosie o'donnell, or her subsequent angst...
Who stands against it? I read them, too. I pin a rose on both of us. When I got into adolescent reading on the other hand, assuming we were still reading the same sort of things, when we read Catch-22, or One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, or anything by J.D. Salinger, what gender were the people with whom we would naturally identify? Because unless you identified with Franny, which I sure didn't, my guess would be that one of us felt like an unnatural being, and without thinking about it or even knowing how to think about it, strengthened the foundations of the assumption that she was in some way a hideously deformed freak, and equally unthinkingly continued to modify her understanding of what she wanted or needed or deserved in order to express them in a way that would not reveal her inner deviation. And one of us didn't.
This is not the hugest or most immediate tragedy of our times. In my case, it was not even a tragedy, because I was lucky enough to have been born into circumstances that valued some innate qualities other than gender, and I happened to have them. So I had alternate routes to take on my boring little journey to self-esteem. Many people, both male and female, do not have alternate routes, and for a wide variety of reasons. Those are the people who need all the help they can get. And....I'm having a hard time not being the bitch that in reality I am not, again.
And I guess the reason is that still to this day, some degree of misogyny is so entrenched in the culture that I am fearful and angry when I try to point it out. Furthermore, I don't entirely like myself for pointing it out, since I am a part of the culture and thus as reflexively, unthinkingly misogynist as the next well-meaning, woman-liking, liberty-affirming man is, though I am a woman. And that's the consequence of living your entire life alert to the many, many signals that indicate in their many, many forms: Be reasonable, dear. Don't cause a situation in which you, the weaker party, will only get hurt. Which creates a false dichotomy, so that my unthinking shouting at those voices, "Shut the fuck up, you assholes, I got a right to have feelings" prompts me, unthinkingly, to throw a counterpunch, when no punch has been thrown.
I apologize. What I meant was: I too stand by your inclusion of Harriet the Spy! And I really do mean that.
I am posting this in whole anyway, because though most of it's not my ultimate position, it is part of the microsecond round trip my mind travels each and every time that button is pushed. And by some bizarre irony, when I arrive at the conclusion that yelling at forum members who have done nothing to deserve it is unjust, the end result is that somehow, I still was silent when I had something pertinent to say that I know for a fact can be conveyed without drama or ill will. But in this medium, I have no idea how.
I welcome feedback on this topic, and it doesn't have to be supportive. Because I'm actually not a victim or vulnerable child, and will not be devastated by it.
What would be a fair and effective way to communicate feelings of unease regarding gender bias in the medium of this forum from y'all's point of view? I would prefer to communicate effectively with persons of all genders than to waste microseconds of my time shouting at myself, or actual seconds of yours listening to me, since once anything makes the transition from thought to expression it gains length in time. As Lou Reed points out so pithily in "Some Kind of Love."
compared2what? wrote:Ain't no big thing. I mean, the systemic oppression of women is a big thing, in most parts of the world. But the way you guys were phrasing your admiration wasn't. More like: It seemed worth remarking that (a) the imbalance was noted belatedly; and (b) accommodated in a little bit of an unnatural manner, which is not an accusation of any kind. We don't live in a world that makes natural accommodation wrt recognizing the ways in which men and women have different standing but comparable worth at all easy for anyone.
Tell me about it. I didn't notice that all my heros were men till someone else pointed out their female heros. (with the exception of female relos of course, so I should add one more - Rani lakshambai's high priestess.)
Basically, I had noticed from the start of the thread, idly, in what way it reflected gender status quo, just because that's part of the lens through which I see the world, which, in itself, doesn't automatically make it relevant to the topic at hand. An opportunity arrived to pipe up, so I took it.
Glad someone did.
I thought about it a bit more tho, and being the bloke I am I guess it does make sense to me to have a bunch of heros who are guys cos quite frankly I have no idea what it means to be female and no way to relate to that.
Heros are someone I'd try to be like so there you have it.
Awesome as devi or joya are how in the hell am I gonna relate to what they did? Only through respecing their guts, strength and (esp Joya's) dignity.
compared2what? wrote:I apologize. What I meant was: I too stand by your inclusion of Harriet the Spy! And I really do mean that.
I am posting this in whole anyway, because though most of it's not my ultimate position, it is part of the microsecond round trip my mind travels each and every time that button is pushed. And by some bizarre irony, when I arrive at the conclusion that yelling at forum members who have done nothing to deserve it is unjust, the end result is that somehow, I still was silent when I had something pertinent to say that I know for a fact can be conveyed without drama or ill will. But in this medium, I have no idea how.
I welcome feedback on this topic, and it doesn't have to be supportive. Because I'm actually not a victim or vulnerable child, and will not be devastated by it.
nice writing c2w.
I love these two books. Ms. L’Engle’s writing shaped in many ways my thought processes as a child.
In this fateful hour, I place all Heaven with its power, And the sun with its brightness, And the snow with its whiteness, And the fire with all the strength it hath, And the lightning with its rapid wrath, And the winds with their swiftness along their path, And the sea with its deepness, And the rocks with their steepness, And the earth with its starkness: All these I place, By God's almighty help and grace Between myself and the powers of darkness.
Another of my reasons for segregating the "ladies and gentlemen" is that, in my mind, in my imagination, I think of them as good mates. I want my heroes, Nietzsche and Ti-Grace Atkinson for example, to have lovechildren. And so on.
“Joy is a current of energy in your body, like chlorophyll or sunlight,
that fills you up and makes you naturally want to do your best.” - Bill Russell
compared2what? wrote:And that's the consequence of living your entire life alert to the many, many signals that indicate in their many, many forms: Be reasonable, dear. Don't cause a situation in which you, the weaker party, will only get hurt. Which creates a false dichotomy, so that my unthinking shouting at those voices, "Shut the fuck up, you assholes, I got a right to have feelings" prompts me, unthinkingly, to throw a counterpunch, when no punch has been thrown.
Seamus OBlimey wrote: It's not only women feel that y'know.
And hey! I sent chocolates didn't I?
I do. And I'm glad I do. I love the chocolates, thank you! Especially the ones with the raspberry creme filling.
But an enriched understanding of your fellows in humanity owing to knowing in them what you know in yourself? Priceless!
I'm adding Poison Ivy of The Cramps to the heroes list
And I would post a video for the song "All Women Are Bad" if I could find one. There's a trailer for the proto-porno of that name available, and it's hilarious, as well as of some inherent aesthetic value in the Accidental Sociological Realism school of cinema.
But it's full of naked ladies and fetish practices as envisaged in the exploitation heyday of the '60s from whence Russ Meyers sprang. So don't watch it if naked exploited ladies or risque video are offensive to you. Avert your eyes and just listen to the voice-over.
