Don't You Miss When This Was Just CT Paranoia?

[8bitagent]

Young college aged American liberals who think they know it all get under my skin than even the Glenn Beck or Fox News/Rush crowd.

I know I've been saying it for the two years I've been on here, but the hate from the left toward "conspiracy theorists" is immensely knee-jerk and high.

They almost NEED the 9/11 fable to be more true than the right wing.
To fit in this goofy rigid "blowback/incompetence" Chomsky like framework.
Questioning 9/11 to most of these young college lefties will result in either
a blank stare and them getting real quiet, or an angry "wow, do you believe Jews rule the world and the moonlanding and Holocaust was fake too?"

Hell ONLY NOW is the average lefty waking up to the horror of the Afghan war, where for the last few years they seemed to staunchly defend that war as the "Right war".

I even get accused of being a right winger for having concerns about Obama and his cabinet.

[exojuridik]

They almost NEED the 9/11 fable to be more true than the right wing.
To fit in this goofy rigid "blowback/incompetence" Chomsky like framework.
Questioning 9/11 to most of these young college lefties will result in either
a blank stare and them getting real quiet, or an angry "wow, do you believe Jews rule the world and the moonlanding and Holocaust was fake too?"

I think most of these liberals have this desire to be of "responsible" and "measured" sensibilities. They still think they are fighting an intellectual war with the right, so they soberly choose the positions they feel most defensible. What they don't realize is that they actually have been put on the defensive by conservatives who really don't give a flyin fuck by the policy-debate and just like seeing the fancypants intellectuals dance on the frying pan.

That said, I have encountered moon hoax theories from people who wouldn't know the deep state if they were drowning in it. We established on this board that it was Kubrick behind it all, right?

[JackRiddler]

Young college aged American liberals who think they know it all get under my skin than even the Glenn Beck or Fox News/Rush crowd.

A profoundly reactionary sentiment that confirms the unfortunate image I've formed of you, affable as you are.

.

[8bitagent]

Young college aged American liberals who think they know it all get under my skin than even the Glenn Beck or Fox News/Rush crowd.

A profoundly reactionary sentiment that confirms the unfortunate image I've formed of you, affable as you are.

.

Thanks...but there's a reason I made that statement. And there's a reason Europe's left see's America's left not as left as they think.

I can pull out the HuffingtonPost, DailyKos, etc pieces calling people who question 9/11, talk about secret cabals, etc dangerous nuts? I've been to peace rallies, anti war protests or activist groups only to find that questioning not just the official sept 11th narrative is taboo, but questioning Israel's policies or calling Afghanistan an immoral war is not in accordance to the generic "Bush is bad, US out of Iraq" meme.

We KNOW the right wing Fox news folks, with their "Obama was born in Kenya" and "Terrorists could attack us anytime!" bs are out to lunch.

But the left should be more aware of what's really going on. And I don't even want to know how far into the koolaid they've gone since Lord Obama won. The resistance I encountered was during the thick of the neocon reign.

[Nordic]

Alice, I have to say I find your theory fascinating, and the most probable one I've yet come across. It simply makes a lot of sense.

I've always been completely befuddled as to Israel's strange stranglehold on America. How does this tiny state have America by the balls to such a degree? I mean, while it was committing horrific war crimes in Gaza, the American congress got together and passed some sort of monkey-court resolution praising it. I can't remember if there were any dissenters, but it doesn't matter, the vote was so ridiculously lopsided. There are Zionists everywhere in our government, and in our media (such as Wolf Blitzer, an admitted zionist:

http://www.chartingstocks.net/2009/09/b ... ded-video/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-8aTGnjHnI

(BTW I fucking hate Wolf Blitzer, years before before I found out he was a zionist)

And we have the companies tapping ALL of our phones owned by Israel. So Israel is, yes, tapping all our phones:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hI_k9Xt0 ... r_embedded

Then we had a bunch of these "neocons" who were largely Zionists, take over the Presidency of the country for eight fucking years, stealing elections and starting wars.

So can someone tell me HOW this occurred? How did tiny little obnoxious Israel manage to grab the United States of America by the balls, cut them off, and put them in their freezer?

Alice, maybe you can help us out with that.

Because it seems that at some point it would be in America's best interest to call the bluff of this obnoxious fucking country and let it be destroyed by the Arabs. I mean, why not?

But no. Are Americans that cowardly that they'll let the threat of their dirty laundry being aired keep them basically slaves to these fucks?

I mean, if someone did that to me, I'd do a Letterman on them and just come out with it, and fucking beat the shit out of them.

I honestly don't get it. What does America GET out of this deal? Because it wouldn't do it if it didn't get something. What does America GET by selling its soul to this tiny despised state?

[brainpanhandler]

First, let me rewrite this for you so that it at least makes some sort of fucking sense, such as it is.


Young college aged American liberals who think they know it all get under my skin even more than the Glenn Beck or Fox News/Rush crowd.

I know I've been saying it for the two years I've been on here, but the vitriolic, knee jerk hate from the left toward "conspiracy theorists" suggests to me they almost NEED, even more than the right wing, for the official 9/11 fable to be true in order to fit into this goofy, rigid "blowback/incompetence" Chomsky like framework.

Engaging most of these young college lefties in a discussion about the veracity of the official 911 explanation will result in either
a blank stare and silence, or an angry "wow, do you believe Jews rule the world and that the moonlanding and Holocaust were fake too?"

Hell, ONLY NOW is the average lefty waking up to the horror of the Afghan war, where for the last few years they seemed to staunchly defend that war as the "Right war".

I even get accused of being a right winger for having concerns about Obama and his cabinet.


There, now how hard was that?


Now, you should go back and rewrite this again and fill it with all sorts of qualifiers, like, "it seems to me" and "I can't prove it but I get the impression that.." and "I know I am generalizing a lot, but..." or you can get busy actually defining your terms and then providing at least some cursory evidence to support your assertions or, you can stfu.

[8bitagent]

re: Israel

The massive spy running, communication/telecom shenangians, etc by Israel inside of America leading up to 9/11 alone is very very odd(including Israeli spy linked ecstacy rings in the late 1990's)

Again, the hour and ten minute mark here gets deep into all this:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... corruption

[brainpanhandler]

How did tiny little obnoxious Israel manage to grab the United States of America by the balls, cut them off, and put them in their freezer?

What would America do if it "had balls"?

I honestly don't get it. What does America GET out of this deal? Because it wouldn't do it if it didn't get something. What does America GET by selling its soul to this tiny despised state?

America's soul was long ago bought and paid for. We've done nothing but rape and pillage the planet and it's inhabitants since the republic came into existence.


At the very least:

What America gets by aligning, arming and protecting Israel is a nuclear armed ally in the region. What America gets is a teleological manifest destiny excuse to keep what amounts to an enormous military base in the middle east. What America gets is a way to manipulate the religious right into believing that we have a god given mandate to be in the middle east.

[barracuda]

Young college aged American liberals who think they know it all get under my skin even more than the Glenn Beck or Fox News/Rush crowd.

[Nordic]

What America gets by aligning, arming and protecting Israel is a nuclear armed ally in the region. What America gets is a teleological manifest destiny excuse to keep what amounts to an enormous military base in the middle east. What America gets is a way to manipulate the religious right into believing that we have a god given mandate to be in the middle east.

That I get. But what I don't get is how Israel seems to have gotten the upper hand in this relationship.

America seems to have no power whatsoever against Israel.

I know of a relationship, in my past work life, where someone was blackmailing another. The person being blackmailed started the relationship having more power than the one who later blackmailed them.

However, as time went by, at one point push came to shove, and the blackmailer ended up having all the power.

I'll never forget the look in the eyes, and the rather robotic expressions of unequivlcal "support" for the blackmailer, when this all went down.

This is what America's official position on Israel reminds me of.

I want to know exactly what Israel is blackmailing America with, and WHY America doesn't tell them to fuck off. Considering the way America usually acts, like the biggest crime family in the city, it's just astounding to me that someone could successfully blackmail America for generations.

America usually acts like Tony Soprano. Whenever anyone from outside the family does business with him, they usually end up dead, or his slave. Usually dead. Even if it looks like it's gonna really work out good for them for a while, when push comes to shove, they're usually killed off, to the advantage of Soprano. THAT is how America usually acts.

But not in this case.

I'm sure I'll never know why, but I'd sure like to. It would be the Rosetta Stone of so much that has happened, and is happening, in our world.

[brainpanhandler]

Nordic,

I really think it is the other way around for the most part, but the likelihood that Israel has nuclear weapons may have something to do with it. I'm guessing that a nuclear barage on the better part of the world's oil reserves would fuck things up pretty good. Of course you might argue that they would never do that as they would suffer the fallout and contamination themselves. I dunno. I've wondered before what would happen if a nuclear weapon was detonated underground and inside an oil field. Does the whole thing go kaboom?

[AlicetheKurious]

So can someone tell me HOW this occurred? How did tiny little obnoxious Israel manage to grab the United States of America by the balls, cut them off, and put them in their freezer?

Alice, maybe you can help us out with that.

Because it seems that at some point it would be in America's best interest to call the bluff of this obnoxious fucking country and let it be destroyed by the Arabs. I mean, why not?

But no. Are Americans that cowardly that they'll let the threat of their dirty laundry being aired keep them basically slaves to these fucks?

I mean, if someone did that to me, I'd do a Letterman on them and just come out with it, and fucking beat the shit out of them.

I honestly don't get it. What does America GET out of this deal? Because it wouldn't do it if it didn't get something. What does America GET by selling its soul to this tiny despised state?

brainpanhandler said:

What America gets by aligning, arming and protecting Israel is a nuclear armed ally in the region. What America gets is a teleological manifest destiny excuse to keep what amounts to an enormous military base in the middle east. What America gets is a way to manipulate the religious right into believing that we have a god given mandate to be in the middle east.

bp, you're mixing things up. The last thing "America" wanted was a nuclear armed Israel, at least prior to the Kennedy assassination. JFK had become exasperated with the Israelis' lies about their nuclear weapons facilities (Dimona was a "textile factory") and had informed the Israelis that under no circumstances was Israel to have the bomb, setting a deadline for them to dismantle their nuclear facilities by the summer of 1963. Ben Gurion, who kept stalling until Kennedy called his bluff, resigned in impotent fury, after calling Kennedy an enemy of the Jewish people. By supporting the pretense that he did not receive Kennedy's harsh letter, and ensuring that Kennedy had no Israeli government with whom to communicate, Ben Gurion's resignation pushed back the deadline a few weeks, but Kennedy informed the Israelis that the final deadline would be in the fall. By all accounts, he was dead serious. By November 22, he was dead.

Incidentally, at the time he was killed, another Kennedy was fighting the zionists on another front: Attorney General Robert Kennedy had ordered the American Zionist Council, precursor of AIPAC, to register the organization as a foreign agency. By October 1963, the tension between the Kennedys and the zionists in America was almost as explosive as that between JFK and the Israeli government:


10/11/1963 DOJ Demand for AZC Registration "the Department expects a response from you within 72 hours with regard to this matter."

10/17/1963 J. Walter Yeagley notes of DOJ AZC meeting attended by Nicholas Katzenbach. "Judge Rifkind then made a plea for no registration, stating it was the opinion of most of the persons affiliated with the Council that such registration would be so publicized by the American Council on Judaism that it would eventually destroy the Zionist movement...he did not believe his clients would file any papers or sign any papers indicating that the organization was an agent of a foreign principal. I told him that any such information or material that is supplied on that basis would be made part of the Department's public files available for inspection by the public..."

http://irmep.org/ILA/AZCDOJ/default.asp

Interestingly, the conflict continued during Robert Kennedy's remaining 9 months as U.S. attorney general until his resignation in September 1964, when he was replaced with Nicholas Katzenbach, after which the matter was quietly dropped, with no explanation. The American Zionist Council morphed into what we know today as AIPAC. Kennedy joined the Senate, then, just after he won the California Democratic primary in 1968, and appeared to have a real chance to reach the White House, he too was assassinated.

Senator William J. Fulbright, who had been chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee during the struggle with the AZC, said in 1973 that "Israel controls the U.S. Senate," and added, "We should be more concerned about the United States' interests." In a pattern that has become all too predictable, pro-Israeli campaign funds swelled the coffers of his opponent and he lost his seat in 1974.

As for manifest destiny and the military base in the Middle East, both Eisenhower and Kennedy were undoubtedly American imperialists, neither one above getting his hands dirty. However, it's interesting to contrast the deep respect that most Arabs felt towards both men, and the suspicion and hostility that has been directed (with brief exceptions) against American presidents since then. The reason is very simple: Eisenhower and Kennedy were perceived as loyal to American geostrategic interests, which the Arabs could understand and respect, and impartial in their dealings with both the Arabs and Israel.

Arabs, with their long history of dealing with empires, are realists. They understand that powerful countries have a deep interest in the region's strategic resources, and that the owners of those resources are in no position to dictate terms to a global superpower. However, they expect to cut some kind of a deal that they can live with. The introduction of Israel into the equation immediately transforms it into a zero-sum game, because it is simply not possible to co-exist with a racist, expansionist, aggressive, militaristic rogue colonial state in one's midst.

As for "America manipulating the religious right", you're ignoring the fact that the religious right only became such a powerful force in American politics after the Likud was elected to power in Israel in 1977. The Likud, under the leadership of Menachem Begin, immediately executed a plan to transform the then disorganized, fragmented, politically weak religious right in the U.S. into a powerful weapon in Israel's hands. Begin changed the name of the West Bank into "Judea, Samaria and the Galilee", and spoke constantly in biblical terms, something that had certainly not characterized previous Israeli leaders. The Likud sent emissaries to prominent leaders of the religious right, frequently bearing lavish gifts, such as the Lear Jet given to Jerry Falwell in the early 80s, which he used to travel across the country to drum up support for his brand of "Christian zionism".

From the late 1970s on, Israel forged very intimate relations with the most powerful leaders of the Christian Right, notably Pat Robertson, whose lucrative and incredibly dirty business dealings with Zaire's monstrous late president Mobutu had, I'm sure, nothing to do with the fact that Mobutu was a close ally of Israel. I'm not familiar with televangelists in general, but it would be interesting to see an investigation of how many of these "Christian zionists" operate their so-called religious outfits as fronts for similar scams.

Brainpanhandler, most citizens of most states understand that their country doesn't need a so-called "god-given right" to protect its genuine national interests, especially if this can be done with at least the appearance of a reasonably fair deal for the other party. The kind of frenzied religious brainwashing associated with the christian zionists is, in contrast, most useful for persuading people to behave in a way that is irrational and self-destructive.

Nordic, I think the above sheds some light on the questions you raised, as well.

Nordic said:

I want to know exactly what Israel is blackmailing America with, and WHY America doesn't tell them to fuck off. Considering the way America usually acts, like the biggest crime family in the city, it's just astounding to me that someone could successfully blackmail America for generations.

You don't blackmail "America" -- you only have to be able to target specific, strategically placed individuals for bribery and/or blackmail. Of course, you'd need to control enormous and very diverse resources to do that successfully against people who are powerful in their own right. You'd need lots of money, naturally but even more importantly an effective mechanism to disseminate mass propaganda, recruit and mobilize "foot soldiers" at all levels, not only inside America but elsewhere in the world, a well-placed network of infiltrators and spies, and close links with global organized crime wouldn't hurt, either.

And you also need to be able to do all of that in plain sight, with no serious fear of exposure, secure in the knowledge that you can silence dissent, at least in where it counts, with accusations of anti-semitism and reminders about the Holocaust, instantly zapping your opponents into the outer fringes of obscurity where they can do no harm. If that still doesn't work, accidents will happen. It's a dangerous world.

[Uncle $cam]

So with regards to the op info here, IBM, etc... and a post I just saw in the vid only thread, entitled: LAPD's creepy Orwellian anti-terrorism ad (video) or If you smell something suspicious - iWatch

http://www.youtube.com/user/ LAPDONLINE1 *

Does anyone besides me find it a bit creepy that the LAPD has their own youtube page? I don know, just kinda disconcerting....

*Note I made the link so as not to point to here...lol but scoot the LAPDONLINE1 over one space and it should work.

[AlicetheKurious]

Oh, yeah. I forgot to include this quote from They Dare to Speak Out, by former U.S. Senator Paul Findley:

...Admiral Thomas Moorer recalls a dramatic example of Israeli lobby power from his days as chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. At the time of the 1973 Arab-Israeli war, Mordecai Gur, the defense attaché at the Israeli embassy who later became commander-in-chief of Israeli forces, came to Moorer demanding that the United States provide Israel with aircraft that were equipped with a high technology air-to-surface anti-tank missile called the Maverick. At the time, the U.S. had only one squadron so equipped. Moorer recalled telling Gur:

I can't let you have those aircraft. We have just one squadron. Besides, we've been testifying before the Congress, convincing them we need this equipment. If we gave you our only squadron, Congress would raise hell with us.

Moorer looked at me with a steady, piercing gaze that must have kept a generation of ensigns trembling in their boots. "And do you know what he said? Gur told me, 'You get us the airplanes; I'll take care of the Congress." Moorer paused, then added, "And he did." America's only squadron equipped with Mavericks went to Israel.

Moorer, speaking in his office in Washington as a senior counselor at the Georgetown University Center for Strategic and International Studies, said he strongly opposed the transfer but was overruled by "political expediency at the presidential level." He notes that President Richard Nixon was then in the throes of Watergate. "But," he added:

I've never seen a president - I don't care who he is - stand up to them [the Israelis]. It just boggles your mind. They always get what they want. The Israelis know what is going on all the time. I got to the point where I wasn't writing anything down. If the American people understood what a grip those people have got on our government, they would rise up in arms. Our citizens don't have any idea what goes on.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Israe ... akOut.html

[brainpanhandler]

bp, you're mixing things up.

No doubt.

The last thing "America" wanted was a nuclear armed Israel, at least prior to the Kennedy assassination. JFK had become exasperated with the Israelis' lies about their nuclear weapons facilities (Dimona was a "textile factory") and had informed the Israelis that under no circumstances was Israel to have the bomb, setting a deadline for them to dismantle their nuclear facilities by the summer of 1963. Ben Gurion, who kept stalling until Kennedy called his bluff, resigned in impotent fury, after calling Kennedy an enemy of the Jewish people. By supporting the pretense that he did not receive Kennedy's harsh letter, and ensuring that Kennedy had no Israeli government with whom to communicate, Ben Gurion's resignation pushed back the deadline a few weeks, but Kennedy informed the Israelis that the final deadline would be in the fall. By all accounts, he was dead serious. By November 22, he was dead.

Incidentally, at the time he was killed, another Kennedy was fighting the zionists on another front: Attorney General Robert Kennedy had ordered the American Zionist Council, precursor of AIPAC, to register the organization as a foreign agency. By October 1963, the tension between the Kennedys and the zionists in America was almost as explosive as that between JFK and the Israeli government:


10/11/1963 DOJ Demand for AZC Registration "the Department expects a response from you within 72 hours with regard to this matter."

10/17/1963 J. Walter Yeagley notes of DOJ AZC meeting attended by Nicholas Katzenbach. "Judge Rifkind then made a plea for no registration, stating it was the opinion of most of the persons affiliated with the Council that such registration would be so publicized by the American Council on Judaism that it would eventually destroy the Zionist movement...he did not believe his clients would file any papers or sign any papers indicating that the organization was an agent of a foreign principal. I told him that any such information or material that is supplied on that basis would be made part of the Department's public files available for inspection by the public..."

http://irmep.org/ILA/AZCDOJ/default.asp

Interestingly, the conflict continued during Robert Kennedy's remaining 9 months as U.S. attorney general until his resignation in September 1964, when he was replaced with Nicholas Katzenbach, after which the matter was quietly dropped, with no explanation. The American Zionist Council morphed into what we know today as AIPAC. Kennedy joined the Senate, then, just after he won the California Democratic primary in 1968, and appeared to have a real chance to reach the White House, he too was assassinated.

Senator William J. Fulbright, who had been chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee during the struggle with the AZC, said in 1973 that "Israel controls the U.S. Senate," and added, "We should be more concerned about the United States' interests." In a pattern that has become all too predictable, pro-Israeli campaign funds swelled the coffers of his opponent and he lost his seat in 1974.

Interesting. I'll leave it to someone else to argue this with you if they want.

As for manifest destiny and the military base in the Middle East, ... The introduction of Israel into the equation immediately transforms it into a zero-sum game, because it is simply not possible to co-exist with a racist, expansionist, aggressive, militaristic rogue colonial state in one's midst.

Yes, well, that sounds like a good description of US forces.

As for "America manipulating the religious right", you're ignoring the fact that the religious right only became such a powerful force in American politics after the Likud was elected to power in Israel in 1977.

Strictly speaking I am not ignoring it, but I was ignorant of it.

The Likud, under the leadership of Menachem Begin, immediately executed a plan to transform the then disorganized, fragmented, politically weak religious right in the U.S. into a powerful weapon in Israel's hands. Begin changed the name of the West Bank into "Judea, Samaria and the Galilee", and spoke constantly in biblical terms, something that had certainly not characterized previous Israeli leaders. The Likud sent emissaries to prominent leaders of the religious right, frequently bearing lavish gifts, such as the Lear Jet given to Jerry Falwell in the early 80s, which he used to travel across the country to drum up support for his brand of "Christian zionism".

From the late 1970s on, Israel forged very intimate relations with the most powerful leaders of the Christian Right, notably Pat Robertson, whose lucrative and incredibly dirty business dealings with Zaire's monstrous late president Mobutu had, I'm sure, nothing to do with the fact that Mobutu was a close ally of Israel. I'm not familiar with televangelists in general, but it would be interesting to see an investigation of how many of these "Christian zionists" operate their so-called religious outfits as fronts for similar scams.

This is interesting history and addresses Nordic's question about "how this occurred", which is more of an historical question and I'll take your word on it as a starting point. I still think it is true in a more contemporary sense that "america", that is to say, the most previous administration, used the biblical significance of Israel to propagandize a significant portion of their base, the evangelical christian fundies and I don't really think their were any Israeli puppermasters pulling their strings, though they may have been cheering them on.

Brainpanhandler, most citizens of most states understand that their country doesn't need a so-called "god-given right" to protect its genuine national interests, especially if this can be done with at least the appearance of a reasonably fair deal for the other party.

With God On Our Side