rigorousintuition.ca

Canadian_watcher wrote:-- I agree with Burnt Hill on the umbilical cord vs foreskin issue.

Well, it's horrible to imagine a newborn baby being deliberately subjected to any form of mutilation. That's why I didn't want to do it in the first place, until the matter was taken out of my hands. Even then, I was given to understand that it was for the best in the long run and didn't really hurt them. But I just did a quick search and found that, contrary to what I'd thought, newborns and even embryos do indeed feel physical pain.

Canadian_watcher wrote:-- your boys don't consciously remember the cut, but that doesn't mean it isn't buried in their psyches as a brutal 'welcome' into the world. I'm not trying to guilt-trip or anything but we just don't know what psychological damage it does to an infant to be made to suffer excruciating pain within hours or days of being born.

Maybe I'm just kidding myself, like I did with the physical pain thing (I assumed the pain receptors weren't fully developed at birth), but it's really hard to imagine newborn babies having much of a subconscious. At birth, they seem to live very much in the moment with little, if any, delayed reactions or "spill-over" from one moment to the next. For the first few days, all they do is wake up and feed and then go straight back to sleep regardless of anything else going on. They cry when they're hungry or cold and then calm right down when they're fed or warmed (unless they're colicky or have gas). If so, that's good, given how outrageously shocking the birth itself is, in every way possible, even without the circumcision. Still, I take comfort in how happy my kids seemed as babies. I figure that any buried trauma would have been evident in some way, babies not having particularly complex psyches from what I've seen or being particularly good (!) at concealing their feelings from others or themselves.

Canadian_watcher wrote: ...why do any surgery on children if you don't have to??

Absolutely, although I confess that due to the absence of any evidence at all that there is any fallout, at least in my experience, I still can't get worked up about this specific issue...

AlicetheKurious wrote:

Canadian_watcher wrote:-- I agree with Burnt Hill on the umbilical cord vs foreskin issue.

Well, it's horrible to imagine a newborn baby being deliberately subjected to any form of mutilation. That's why I didn't want to do it in the first place, until the matter was taken out of my hands. Even then, I was given to understand that it was for the best in the long run and didn't really hurt them. But I just did a quick search and found that, contrary to what I'd thought, newborns and even embryos do indeed feel physical pain.

Canadian_watcher wrote:-- your boys don't consciously remember the cut, but that doesn't mean it isn't buried in their psyches as a brutal 'welcome' into the world. I'm not trying to guilt-trip or anything but we just don't know what psychological damage it does to an infant to be made to suffer excruciating pain within hours or days of being born.

Maybe I'm just kidding myself, like I did with the physical pain thing (I assumed the pain receptors weren't fully developed at birth), but it's really hard to imagine newborn babies having much of a subconscious. At birth, they seem to live very much in the moment with little, if any, delayed reactions or "spill-over" from one moment to the next. For the first few days, all they do is wake up and feed and then go straight back to sleep regardless of anything else going on. They cry when they're hungry or cold and then calm right down when they're fed or warmed (unless they're colicky or have gas). If so, that's good, given how outrageously shocking the birth itself is, in every way possible, even without the circumcision. Still, I take comfort in how happy my kids seemed as babies. I figure that any buried trauma would have been evident in some way, babies not having particularly complex psyches from what I've seen or being particularly good (!) at concealing their feelings from others or themselves.

Canadian_watcher wrote: ...why do any surgery on children if you don't have to??

Absolutely, although I confess that due to the absence of any evidence at all that there is any fallout, at least in my experience, I still can't get worked up about this specific issue...

one theory I've recently been re-introduced to (not that I can much back it up or even know what basis it's developed from) is that birth trauma creates the subconscious due to the minds attempt to escape the painful experience via repressing it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-_and_p ... psychology

Hey Alice, Drew...
I'd like to feel free to keep commenting on this issue, but I have been informed that my opinion is that of a rabid feminist, and that as a female I am unqualified to speak to this issue. My comments thus far have been vastly misinterpreted such that some think I'm saying the world would be a better place if women ran it and I have been labeled a 'sado-sista.'

as a result, I'm too afraid to say anything more.

fwiw though Alice, as a mom I think I would have done/felt the very same as you did.

Canadian_watcher wrote:Hey Alice, Drew...
I'd like to feel free to keep commenting on this issue, but I have been informed that my opinion is that of a rabid feminist, and that as a female I am unqualified to speak to this issue.

Considering how many people have been arguing against women having a unique right to decide what is misogyny, there ought to be plenty over here reassuring you on this. Brekin! WUAL! Get a shift on.

Talk on girl, rabid or not.

I is consistent.

I opted to not have my son circumcised (that can't be the right spelling, it seems odd).

My little baby son, and they want to slice his penis? Over my dead body!

Of course, now he's like that, and I'm not, and sometimes he has questions, and I don't know how to answer them. He mentioned he wished he was cut, so he'd be like me, but I think I convinced him he got the better deal.

Seems barbaric, like some relic of some ancient religion I have no part of.

I do have a question about the Jewish tradition of the bris. Why do they wait? And how old is the baby again when they do it? Maybe a touchy subject, but what's the point of that? It seems like right as the kid is bonding, looking around and realizing he's surrounded by all these people who will love him and take care of him, they have a big party and some guy with a knife chops part of his penis off. Seems there would be some serious trust issues after that.

Nordic wrote:I do have a question about the Jewish tradition of the bris. Why do they wait? And how old is the baby again when they do it?

The bris is held on the eighth day so that the child will be guaranteed to have lived through at least one Sabbath before it occurs.

See here.

Nordic wrote:I opted to not have my son circumcised (that can't be the right spelling, it seems odd).

My little baby son, and they want to slice his penis? Over my dead body!

Of course, now he's like that, and I'm not, and sometimes he has questions, and I don't know how to answer them. He mentioned he wished he was cut, so he'd be like me, but I think I convinced him he got the better deal.

Seems barbaric, like some relic of some ancient religion I have no part of.

I do have a question about the Jewish tradition of the bris. Why do they wait? And how old is the baby again when they do it? Maybe a touchy subject, but what's the point of that? It seems like right as the kid is bonding, looking around and realizing he's surrounded by all these people who will love him and take care of him, they have a big party and some guy with a knife chops part of his penis off. Seems there would be some serious trust issues after that.

I spoke a bit about that above in smilieglyphics. touchy subject to say the least. the last smiley, that's not his tongue sticking out
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohel

Canadian_watcher wrote:Hey Alice, Drew...
I'd like to feel free to keep commenting on this issue, but I have been informed that my opinion is that of a rabid feminist, and that as a female I am unqualified to speak to this issue. My comments thus far have been vastly misinterpreted such that some think I'm saying the world would be a better place if women ran it and I have been labeled a 'sado-sista.'

as a result, I'm too afraid to say anything more.

fwiw though Alice, as a mom I think I would have done/felt the very same as you did.

well, people say things. I would advise to let things pass like water off a ducks back. you shouldn't think just because something is said, everyone else is going to believe it. I'm actually not sure what statements you're referring to. hava was nervous that this subject would become an opportunity for people to dump on religious Judaism. which I hadn't realized she followed.

life goes on... "sticks and stones may break bones but words will never hurt me"

honestly, I'm already suspecting you'll interpret that as an attack. rest assured, it is not intended as any sort of attack.

thanks Drew.. and no, I don't interpret it as an attack.. sheesh.

.. words can hurt when the milieu is verbal, n'est-ce pas? I mean, no one is going to punch me in the face, but they can certainly punch me in the psyche.

Canadian_watcher wrote:thanks Drew.. and no, I don't interpret it as an attack.. sheesh.

.. words can hurt when the milieu is verbal, n'est-ce pas? I mean, no one is going to punch me in the face, but they can certainly punch me in the psyche.

well, they can, but it's up to you if they do or not. although it can be hard to resist taking the punch sometimes. heck, I've sometimes taken a few hits that almost certainly weren't intended to be hits. but hey, pay no attention to my silly preaching, all is well. (we need a high-five emoticon)

The foreskin has twelve known functions.
They are:
1.to cover and bond with the synechia so as to permit the development of the mucosal surface of the glans and inner foreskin.
2.to protect the infant's glans from feces and ammonia in diapers.
3.to protect the glans penis from friction and abrasion throughout life.
4.to keep the glans moisturized and soft with emollient oils.
5.to lubricate the glans.
6.to coat the glans with a waxy protective substance.
7.to provide sufficient skin to cover an erection by unfolding.
8.to provide an aid to masturbation and foreplay.
9.to serve as an aid to penetration.
10.to reduce friction and chafing during intercourse.
11.to serve as erogenous tissue because of its rich supply of erogenous receptors.
12.to contact and stimulate the G-spot of the female partner.

http://www.cirp.org/pages/anat/

http://www.circumstitions.com/Works.html

justdrew wrote: (we need a high-five emoticon)

isn't that your department?

anyway.. to use another emoticon:

pardon the intrusion of one woman's hang ups

I just want to reemphasize this link, on-ramp to really important info here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-_and_p ... psychology

yet another case were Freud "changed his mind" about new ideas related to important human psychological issues, that could have revolutionized human development. thereby down-regulating those idea to the "fringe"

I would love to know exactly who it was that was twisting Freud, probably the same people that promoted him. oh wait. Edward Bernays and his circle, but there must be others, plus whoever it was, had a major impact directly on Anna Freud, whatever/whoever it was, she got a first hand dose of it if you ask me.

My Little Elvis wants his warm turtleneck back, Mom and Dad. You fuckers.

Perelandra wrote:

The foreskin has twelve known functions.
They are:
1.to cover and bond with the synechia so as to permit the development of the mucosal surface of the glans and inner foreskin.
2.to protect the infant's glans from feces and ammonia in diapers.
3.to protect the glans penis from friction and abrasion throughout life.
4.to keep the glans moisturized and soft with emollient oils.
5.to lubricate the glans.
6.to coat the glans with a waxy protective substance.
7.to provide sufficient skin to cover an erection by unfolding.
8.to provide an aid to masturbation and foreplay.
9.to serve as an aid to penetration.
10.to reduce friction and chafing during intercourse.
11.to serve as erogenous tissue because of its rich supply of erogenous receptors.
12.to contact and stimulate the G-spot of the female partner.

http://www.cirp.org/pages/anat/


Sold! How do I get mine back!!??