Re: Is Russia Behind a Secession Effort in California?
Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 5:51 pm
by Elvis
This thread is now useless. Great job.
Re: Is Russia Behind a Secession Effort in California?
Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:58 pm
by seemslikeadream
it's what the Donald would have wanted
And it's worth lingering on the point that Saturday's tweets were truly hysterical -- in both senses of that word. They made us laugh but also evoked a tinge of frenzy or madness. In one tweet Trump invoked McCarthyism: "Terrible! Just found out that Obama had my "wires tapped" in Trump Tower just before the victory. Nothing found. This is McCarthyism!"
Re: Is Russia Behind a Secession Effort in California?
Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:16 pm
by 82_28
I have an idea! No personal attacks of any kind. As the old adage goes, if you have nothing nice to say don't say anything at all. Not just here, but with others in other capacities. I don't think SLAD or Rory were ever menaces. I read (reed) both of you with zero prejudice. Just be nice. It's not that fucking hard. In SLAD's defense, she should not be made to defend herself. No human wants to defend themselves for doing what they do. That is why you never put somebody on the defense. Be cool, Rory!
Re: Is Russia Behind a Secession Effort in California?
Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:51 pm
by peartreed
I just wanted to endorse 82-28’s comments above and state for the record that I particularly appreciate and value the substantive contribution made here by seemslikeadream. Her efforts to collect, share and cross-reference current controversial commentary on the expanding political problems of the presidency are stellar and highly informative, saving me substantial time searching and researching on my own intense interest in events.
I also value the efforts of others, like AmericanDream, for the same reason. It is annoying to have informative threads disrupted by petty personal acrimony that clearly evidences irrational jealous resentment of our resourceful contributors.
Re: Is Russia Behind a Secession Effort in California?
Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 10:13 pm
by American Dream
Given the overall history of Russian designs on the greater Pacific Coast of North America from 1732-1867 and more specifically their colonial presence at Bodega Bay in California 1812-1841, it may be that they are hoping for some kind of comeback on Turtle Island.
Given the possibilities of social collapse, they may be glad someday they kept this little effort going. Who knows? Trump may even prove to be the last president of the United States.
Personally, if I say "U.S. out of North America", then as a matter of principle I would have to say "Russia out of North America" too. Some of y'all may be more welcoming of a Putinite State, as is your perogative.
Re: Is Russia Behind a Secession Effort in California?
Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 11:03 pm
by JackRiddler
I'd love to see ONE thread running about the supposed Russian attack on America. Just one. Because it's a topic worth debating. As it is, this is wildfire propaganda being run (by several posters, although there is one who stands out) on six threads on the current active front page.
Re: Is Russia Behind a Secession Effort in California?
Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 11:10 pm
by PufPuf93
American Dream » Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:13 pm wrote:Given the overall history of Russian designs on the greater Pacific Coast of North America from 1732-1867 and more specifically their colonial presence at Bodega Bay in California 1812-1841, it may be that they are hoping for some kind of comeback on Turtle Island.
Given the possibilities of social collapse, they may be glad someday they kept this little effort going. Who knows? Trump may even prove to be the last president of the United States.
Personally, if I say "U.S. out of North America", then as a matter of principle I would have to say "Russia out of North America" too. Some of y'all may be more welcoming of a Putinite State, as is your perogative.
Not so long ago on page 3 of this wayward thread I typed, "However, recall the Russians were in early Mexican California; think Fort Ross and also the Salmon Mountain area and in the canyons below what is now the Russian Wilderness Area trapping fur and "off" the maps. There is a white Russian refuge community in San Francisco. Maybe?"
but meant it as an obscure joke.
In the last 30 years in particular, the USA has had eyes on the former USSR republics and on the natural resources within Russia far more than Russia has been a credible military or political threat to the continental USA with one exception, nuclear war.
Maybe Trump will be the last USA POTUS but probably not. Things are very fucked up though.
Re: Is Russia Behind a Secession Effort in California?
Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 11:24 pm
by JackRiddler
American Dream » Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:13 pm wrote:Given the overall history of Russian designs on the greater Pacific Coast of North America from 1732-1867 and more specifically their colonial presence at Bodega Bay in California 1812-1841, it may be that they are hoping for some kind of comeback on Turtle Island.
Given the possibilities of social collapse, they may be glad someday they kept this little effort going. Who knows? Trump may even prove to be the last president of the United States.
Personally, if I say "U.S. out of North America", then as a matter of principle I would have to say "Russia out of North America" too. Some of y'all may be more welcoming of a Putinite State, as is your perogative.
Seriously? You sound like a Greek warning against imminent loss of territory to Macedonia, erm sorry, FYROM, except with a scenario less plausible by a factor in the hundreds. I mean, it's true, there are Macedonian revanchists with territorial designs in most every direction surrounding their microdot state. While their odds of one day seizing Thessaloniki are effectively zero, this is still about 786 times likelier than a U.S. literally under Putin! (And if we do get a Trump autocracy with explicit White Christian national ideology, it won't be "Putinite," it will be as American as Nixon's wet dreams.) Meanwhile, the real Russian surge doesn't seem to have gone past the incorporation of land already 90% populated by actual Russians, who welcomed being rescued from the civil war set off by the avowedly anti-Russian actions of the coup government in Kiev. Here we are, several years later, and "invasion" (rescue from war) of Crimea is still the only actual territorial crime cited against the evil, evil Russians.
I urge you to add some healthier staple foods to your current Weinberg binge diet.
Also, this:
American Dream » Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:13 pm wrote:Personally, if I say "U.S. out of North America", then as a matter of principle I would have to say "Russia out of North America" too.
encapsulates the problem with the weak-kneed anti-imperialism of the even-handed anarcho-internationalist (all terms loosely fitted, I shall admit).
Let's go all the way with it!
China out of North America! (Wait, isn't that sort of the Trump program?)
North Korea out of North America!
Germany out of North America!!!
Would-be independent Baluchistan out of North America!!!!!!
Start by opposing the actual beasts on the prowl, there are enough of them. No need to add phantoms, that's what the CIA and Trump are both for. U.S. out of Middle East or a nuclear weapons ban or an end to the international arms trade may sound awfully tepid-bourgeois to you, and yet even these have gone nowhere in 73 years of trying.
.
Re: Is Russia Behind a Secession Effort in California?
Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 12:47 am
by peartreed
I live on the West Coast of Turtle Island with five other family members who are card-carrying status Indians, now more correctly termed indigenous people. It strikes me that there is a closer genetic link in their heritage to what are now Siberian natives and, thus, a distant history of exchanged culture and commonality across the Bering Strait, which is somewhat more of an ancient and original land bridge entitlement to mutual access than the current “colonized by other continent origins’ arguments for residency and government rights of Alaska, Canada and the Western States”.
Re: Is Russia Behind a Secession Effort in California?
Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 3:25 am
by tapitsbo
I doubt anyone here is enthusiastic about the idea of a "Putinist State" per se but it's always interesting that the current Russian Federation government was to a large extent designed by American think tanks originally, as far as its constitution and so on
Re: Is Russia Behind a Secession Effort in California?
Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 3:44 am
by American Dream
I was not at all serious about the "danger" of Russia taking California, or anything like that at all. Shoulda used green.
Re: Is Russia Behind a Secession Effort in California?
Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 4:02 am
by American Dream
PufPuf93 » Sun Mar 05, 2017 10:10 pm wrote:
Not so long ago on page 3 of this wayward thread I typed, "However, recall the Russians were in early Mexican California; think Fort Ross and also the Salmon Mountain area and in the canyons below what is now the Russian Wilderness Area trapping fur and "off" the maps. There is a white Russian refuge community in San Francisco. Maybe?"
but meant it as an obscure joke.
In the last 30 years in particular, the USA has had eyes on the former USSR republics and on the natural resources within Russia far more than Russia has been a credible military or political threat to the continental USA with one exception, nuclear war.
Yeah, I was too busy to read through the thread well, but I thought it possible someone had mentioned that history. I thought of it because I know a couple of people from that region who are from that sort of settler stock (Finnish also). And I miss no sleep worrying about Russian invasions, though I do think Putin is a piece of work.
Re: Is Russia Behind a Secession Effort in California?
Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:03 am
by SonicG
Well, I may as well out myself as a Russian stooge...
An old friend gave me the shirt as he is a big proponent of a group of secessionists not connected with Russia...
Question: What is the CNP’s relationship with Yes California? Isn’t the leader of this movement in Russia?
Response: We are not in any way affiliated or associated with Yes California. Even if we wanted to work with them, such affiliation would be illegal because they are a PAC and we are a “political body attempting to qualify as a Party” and the law explicitly prohibits us from coordinating with them.
Unfortunately they have engaged in a long series of false and misleading attacks against us, claiming to “own” our party and attempting to solicit donations using our name. These claims are false, as anyone who looks at the California Secretary of State‘s website can see. We ask that supporters of Californian independence cancel any donations to Yes California and refuse to support them until the offending individuals are removed and an apology is issued.
Further, we have no connections whatsoever to Yes California’s Russian sponsors, or any other foreign government. We are 100% based in California and supported solely by donations from Californians.
Question: Do you support Yes California’s ballot initiative?
Response: We have not endorsed the YC ballot initiative for a number of reasons, not least of which is the impossibility of working with YC themselves given their behavior.
Many of our members also have deep concerns about the wording of that initiative, including the fact that the way it’s worded it has to be approved by voters twice (increasing the odds of failure). The initiative also seems to call for a unilateral secession which, in addition to being contrary to our platform, would violate US laws and be immediately struck down by the courts. If it went ahead, a unilateral secession would almost certainly lead to hostile relations with the remaining United States and cause economic and political chaos that would be devastating for California’s economy. We are also concerned that a failed vote would seriously weaken the movement for independence, setting us back by decades.
Funny, reminds me of the 60's film "Shadow on the land". Which was based on "It Can't Happen Here" which had a film in production in 1936, but was deemed "too anti-facist" at the time. Go figure. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Can't_Happen_Here
