Top 100 Science-Fiction, Fantasy Books

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Re: Top 100 Science-Fiction, Fantasy Books

Postby Harvey » Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:45 pm

Did anyone catch last nights Dr Who? I've enjoyed the show on and off over the years but the Steven Moffit penned episode yesterday was exceptional, did he just single handedly re-invent the whole show while taking it back to it's roots?

(A bit like the recent Star Trek movie, I'd lost all interest decades ago. I watched it with a friend against my will, but even I had to admit that the last movie was a brilliantly achieved re-invention of a tired and flagging franchise.)

There were some great ideas as you might expect given the quality of the recent series as a whole since the BBC re-discovered The Doctor. Last night however there was a thematic and psychological depth which hasn't really been there before in the show, if ever. And the visuals, humour and story were all first rate. An unexpected pleasure.

Hope this isn't off topic, I'll delete the post if there are objections.
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Re: Top 100 Science-Fiction, Fantasy Books

Postby justdrew » Sun Oct 02, 2011 9:05 pm

Harvey wrote:Did anyone catch last nights Dr Who? Spoiler:I've enjoyed the show on and off over the years but the Steven Moffit penned episode yesterday was exceptional, did he just single handedly re-invent the whole show while taking it back to it's roots?

(A bit like the recent Star Trek movie, I'd lost all interest decades ago. I watched it with a friend against my will, but even I had to admit that the last movie was a brilliantly achieved re-invention of a tired and flagging franchise.)

There were some great ideas as you might expect given the quality of the recent series as a whole since the BBC re-discovered The Doctor. Last night however there was a thematic and psychological depth which hasn't really been there before in the show, if ever. And the visuals, humour and story were all first rate. An unexpected pleasure.

Hope this isn't off topic, I'll delete the post if there are objections.


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Re: Top 100 Science-Fiction, Fantasy Books

Postby JackRiddler » Sun Dec 04, 2011 7:26 pm

.

Oh god, total nerd bait.

I've resisted this long, but.

But. But.

(Note: Actually, I've been holding this post as a draft for months... might as well, finally)

.

Okay, I'm sure we can all agree that the survey results are a dilettante's abomination. This is a barely-disguised NPR demographic research survey, not a credible way to judge literary merit.

To be fair, all such lists are going to have their silly elements. They're also irresistible, and often useful to ordering one's own thoughts.

Also to be fair, even a university scholar of SF isn't going to read everything, or to be so wise, as to be able to make a definitive list.

And that's assuming you could define "best" in the first place.

Of course, NPR fronts its cop-out mentality with the even vaguer "top."

But here is a list that entirely omits Silverberg, Delaney, Jack Vance, James Blish, Alfred Bester and Harlan Ellison. How is that possible? That's off the top of my head, and within the genre they are as well known and influential as masters as Heinlein or Asimov.

I don't care what the popularity contest said, you can't call it "Top." Most popular with NPR listeners who don't know almost any stuff published before 1980, sure. But not "Top."

Two of the greatest SF books ever were penned by Marge Piercy, and she's a moderately big literary name otherwise.

Another insult is that Philip Dick should be represented solely by "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" All this tells us is that a lot of people have seen Blade Runner, and that's about it.

As for Heinlein, his pathbreaking work was "The Past Through Tomorrow" story compilation, here nowhere to be seen.

The use of "series" entries is another joke. This makes sense with a single story so long it runs into multiple volumes ("The Lord of the Rings"), but most of these series came to be because the first book was a success and the publisher wanted repeats.

If you're serious, pick the fucking book you mean. "Dune" is not the same as "Chapterhouse: Dune"!

The effort to categorize art works is always going to involve a few sheer impositions, but the combination of "science fiction and fantasy" is also a marketing device that does not reflect what the books actually are. The link between the two genres is in the shared readership. They are not a common corpus within which one can meaningfully give rankings on the same list. As someone says above, SF is often more closely related to spy and politics intrigues - or for that matter to historical novels - than to fantasy and swords-and-sorcery.

.

I think few genres are as clearly defined and historically delineable as science fiction. That comes from a dual pressure: for many decades the literary mainstream (itself now obsolete) forced it into a ghetto, even as SF authors themselves were driven to use SF as a platform for exploring philosophy, politics, the human condition and the nature of the universe.

Lethem describes that fantastically well in the long excerpt from his upcoming book, published in Harper's, and linked above by Harvey. It's red-hot reading, had me very jealous of the man's talents and afterward I almost stood up in a doctor's waiting room to applaud a magazine page. (I wanted to put it in the Hauntology thread.)

While a few sf precursors were published centuries before the genre came to be (like "Gulliver's Travels"), as a genre SF is speculative fiction born of mass industrial society and almost always involves the alternate history or reframing of modernity, whether projecting into the future or the past.

You can trace its history from Wells and Verne to the mid-20th century hard-sf classics and the new wave literature of Delaney et al., before Hollywood finally dissolved it into the present-day zeitgeist altogether, so that now even romantic comedies routinely include sf elements.

"Lord of the Rings" just doesn't fit into that. LoTR, which I read 7 times as a teenager, is not a work of science fiction. It is an inch removed from the Bible or the Odyssey, and on a different continent altogether from the Foundation trilogy.

ALL THAT being said, I am a nerd who enjoys playing these games, and maybe you'll enjoy joining me in the following exercises...

.

First, the NPR list. What did I actually read on it, that I should pretend to know?


[NPR Audience Survey's] Top 100 Science-Fiction, Fantasy Books [Minus the Ones I Have Not Read]

Key
F=Fantasy or otherwise not SF, on the wrong list.
OIMTE=One Is More Than Enough. (Sword of Shannara? Really?)

August 11, 2011

1. The Lord Of The Rings Trilogy, by J.R.R. Tolkien (F)
2. The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy, by Douglas Adams
3. Ender's Game, by Orson Scott Card
4. The Dune Chronicles, by Frank Herbert [When did some marketing heinie pin a group title on the Dune books? Before or after the elder Herbert died?]
6. 1984, by George Orwell
7. Fahrenheit 451, by Ray Bradbury
8. The Foundation Trilogy, by Isaac Asimov
9. Brave New World, by Aldous Huxley
13. Animal Farm, by George Orwell (F / animal parable)
14. Neuromancer, by William Gibson
15. Watchmen, by Alan Moore
16. I, Robot, by Isaac Asimov
17. Stranger In A Strange Land, by Robert Heinlein
19. Slaughterhouse-Five, by Kurt Vonnegut
20. Frankenstein, by Mary Shelley
21. Do Androids Dream Of Electric Sheep?, by Philip K. Dick
22. The Handmaid's Tale, by Margaret Atwood
24. 2001: A Space Odyssey, by Arthur C. Clarke
25. The Stand, by Stephen King
27. The Martian Chronicles, by Ray Bradbury
28. Cat's Cradle, by Kurt Vonnegut
29. The Sandman Series, by Neil Gaiman (F)
30. A Clockwork Orange, by Anthony Burgess
31. Starship Troopers, by Robert Heinlein (the movie was better & more truthful)
33. Dragonflight, by Anne McCaffrey (OIMTE, are you kidding me?!) (F)
34. The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress, by Robert Heinlein
35. A Canticle For Leibowitz, by Walter M. Miller
36. The Time Machine, by H.G. Wells
37. 20,000 Leagues Under The Sea, by Jules Verne
38. Flowers For Algernon, by Daniel Keys
39. The War Of The Worlds, by H.G. Wells
45. The Left Hand Of Darkness, by Ursula K. LeGuin
46. The Silmarillion, by J.R.R. Tolkien (F)
50. Contact, by Carl Sagan
58. The Chronicles Of Thomas Covenant, The Unbeliever, by Stephen R. Donaldson (OIMTE) (F)
63. The Road, by Cormac McCarthy
67. The Shannara Trilogy, by Terry Brooks (OIMTE, I despair) (F)
72. A Journey To The Center Of The Earth, by Jules Verne
78. The Dispossessed, by Ursula K. LeGuin
79. Something Wicked This Way Comes, by Ray Bradbury
91. The Illustrated Man, by Ray Bradbury


Hm, I've read 41 out of 100, but 34 out of the top 50 and 15 out of the top 20. I don't really mind that I've only read one book by Neil Gaiman, though it was alright. I do wish to read Banks, Stephenson, Hyperion, Forever War...

Here's a real SF list by the way:
http://blamcast.net/articles/best-science-fiction-books

.

Next procedure: Fixing the NPR list.

First, we omit the F's.

We also omit 1984 and Brave New World as books everyone here should have read already, because they made history far more than any of the others, regardless of artistic merit (1984 is the better novel of the two). As we know, they are like handbooks to the modern world - thankfully not exhaustive! (In those terms, Fahrenheit 451 is a very distant third to the those two.)

So here's my list of great SF books that I've actually read and you should read if you haven't, as culled from the NPR list:


Top 20 Actual SF Books On the NPR List That I've Read
Not Including "1984" and "Brave New World" or the "F" Books


1 (4). Dune, by Frank Herbert. (Just fucking Dune. You're going to pretend anyone can top that?! I liked a lot about the first couple of follow-up books, before I'd had enough.)
2 (8). The Foundation Trilogy, by Isaac Asimov
3 (78). The Dispossessed, by Ursula K. LeGuin
4 (35). A Canticle For Leibowitz, by Walter M. Miller
5 (34). The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress, by Robert Heinlein
6 (20). Frankenstein, by Mary Shelley
7 (19). Slaughterhouse-Five, by Kurt Vonnegut
8 (21). Do Androids Dream Of Electric Sheep?, by Philip K. Dick
9 (22). The Handmaid's Tale, by Margaret Atwood
10 (28). Cat's Cradle, by Kurt Vonnegut

11 (25). The Stand, by Stephen King
12 (50). Contact, by Carl Sagan
13 (15). Watchmen, by Alan Moore
14 (3). Ender's Game, by Orson Scott Card
15 (30). A Clockwork Orange, by Anthony Burgess
16 (14). Neuromancer, by William Gibson
17 (2). The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy, by Douglas Adams
18 (27). The Martian Chronicles, by Ray Bradbury
19 (36). The Time Machine, by H.G. Wells
20 (17). Stranger In A Strange Land, by Robert Heinlein



Ah, should have omitted the comic, but okay.

Boiled down that way the list, at least, is not a joke.

But if you haven't read Philip Dick (how did you end up at RI without doing so?) you should read the "Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldritch" and "Flow My Tears, the Policeman Said."

Heinlein's best and in his time most influential work was actually a long series of short stories called "The Past Through Tomorrow," tied together by the device of a man who to his surprise gradually discovers he is immortal (Lazarus Long) because, as he finds out, he's the third or fourth generation of a breeding experiment in longevity started by some spooky foundation in the 19th century. It includes "The Man Who Sold the Moon" and "The Green Hills of Earth" among a few dozen other stories and extends from the contemporary 1950s into, I don't know, the year 3000 or so. Feel free to dislike Heinlein, but that's what SF is at its core: alternate history of the present. Physical dragons, not so much.

Now, to hell with the NPR list, and let's try this:

Ten Great SF Books I've Read That Are Not On the NPR List
Off the Top of My Head, So There


Samuel Delaney, Dhalgren
Marge Piercy, Woman On The Edge of Time
Marge Piercy, City of Glass (a.k.a. He, She and It)
Mary Shelley, Frankenstein
Robert Silverberg, The Masks of Time

Alfred Bester, The Stars My Destination
Thomas Disch, Camp Concentration
Charlotte Perkins Gilman, Herland
Jack Vance, The Best of Jack Vance (story collection)
James Blish, Cities in Flight


.
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Re: Top 100 Science-Fiction, Fantasy Books

Postby Belligerent Savant » Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:10 pm

.

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Re: Top 100 Science-Fiction, Fantasy Books

Postby semper occultus » Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:23 pm

JackRiddler wrote:We also omit 1984 and Brave New World as books everyone here should have read already, because they made history far more than any of the others, regardless of artistic merit (1984 is the better novel of the two). As we know, they are like handbooks to the modern world - thankfully not exhaustive! (In those terms, Fahrenheit 451 is a very distant third to the those two.)


probably also goes for Clockwork Orange to a large extent... ( I believe I'm right that Burgess was driven to write the book after his wife was violently attacked...)

...dystopias probably deserve their own (sub)-category...
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Re: Top 100 Science-Fiction, Fantasy Books

Postby Hammer of Los » Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:34 am

...

Hi again Jack!

We also omit 1984 and Brave New World as books everyone here should have read already, because they made history far more than any of the others, regardless of artistic merit (1984 is the better novel of the two). As we know, they are like handbooks to the modern world - thankfully not exhaustive! (In those terms, Fahrenheit 451 is a very distant third to the those two.)


I loved all three, perhaps Brave New World best of all.

I might add to this later but for now I am just going to list some of the authors that I have most enjoyed or learnt from;

J R R Tolkien
C S Lewis
Ray Bradbury
Isaac Asimov
Roger Zelazney
Fritz Lieber
Gary Gygax
Stan Lee
Grant Morrison
Pat Mills
Stephen Donaldson
Frank Herbert
Ursula K Le Guin
Michael Moorcock
Douglas Adams

I wonder who else I might put, I made up that quick list off the top of my head.

I must get round to rereading Moorcock's "Dancers at the end of Time." That's exactly what I feel like sometimes: A Dancer at the End of Time.

Either that, or the lead character in Roger Zelazney's "Lord of Light."

:angelwings:
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Re: Top 100 Science-Fiction, Fantasy Books

Postby crikkett » Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:42 am

Want a great commute? Listen to the audiobook of Snow Crash.

Want a good think? A preview of sorts?
Canticle for Leibowitz.
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Re: Top 100 Science-Fiction, Fantasy Books

Postby 82_28 » Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:26 am

But if you haven't read Philip Dick (how did you end up at RI without doing so?) you should read the "Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldritch" and "Flow My Tears, the Policeman Said."


Haha! So weirdly true! I'm in a different place in life than I was when I "began" here. PKD came like a miracle into my life with a bunch of other weird shit back in the aughts and fully formulated by night job as an RI poster. Jeff Wells was in there to be sure, but they all converged in one fell swoop. Weird days those were. Excellent, heady days.

As a dickhead, I must also recommend, I think I did awhile back anyhow, UBIK, Time out of Joint, Radio Free Albemuth and The Transmigration of Timothy Archer. All four of those will tilt your sense of anything forever -- I think, for the better. But that's that's just me.
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Re: Top 100 Science-Fiction, Fantasy Books

Postby justdrew » Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:56 am

for sheer Dickishness, I recommend: Dr. Boodmoney, Lies, Inc. and Simulacra

(not that everything else mentioned aren't good too)
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Re: Top 100 Science-Fiction, Fantasy Books

Postby 82_28 » Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:49 am

justdrew wrote:for sheer Dickishness, I recommend: Dr. Boodmoney, Lies, Inc. and Simulacra

(not that everything else mentioned aren't good too)


I think the meat of the matter is, you can read anything by Dick and one way or the other you will leave the experience different than when you went in. His shit is just so seemingly pulpy on the surface, his writing, somewhat ham-handed, his characters and their names a little contrived. However, one finds eloquence in it when you just read. God, I just wish I had my Dick library intact. I have absolutely no clue who I gave all my PKD books to over the years. i just know I lent just about all of them out and will never see them again.
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Re: Top 100 Science-Fiction, Fantasy Books

Postby semper occultus » Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:57 am

Great Lives Series 26

Philip K Dick
Next on: Tomorrow, 16:30 on BBC Radio 4

Actor Michael Sheen (Frost/Nixon; The Queen; Midnight in Paris) explores the life of Philip K. Dick with Matthew Parris, and explains why he had such a big influence on his recent production of Hamlet.

Michael first discovered Philip K. Dick through the film Bladerunner, and moved onto his short stories which got him thinking about science-fiction in a new way. Whilst reading about philosophy, quantum physics, and comparative mythology, it struck him how Dick was intuitively weaving narratives around all the most interesting elements that these fields were throwing up.

He talks about Philip K. Dick's innate interest in multiples realities, and how they overlap with Sheen's own family experiences of mental health issues. In fact the more he found out about him, the more he was drawn to this enigmatic writer.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b017wyyc


for any Dick-heads I heard this trailed on the radio for tomorrow 06 Dec - don't know if you can pick up the pod-cast....


Hammer wrote: might add to this later but for now I am just going to list some of the authors that I have most enjoyed or learnt from;

J R R Tolkien
C S Lewis
Ray Bradbury
Isaac Asimov
Roger Zelazney
Fritz Lieber
Gary Gygax
Stan Lee
Grant Morrison
Pat Mills
Stephen Donaldson
Frank Herbert
Ursula K Le Guin
Michael Moorcock
Douglas Adams

I wonder who else I might put, I made up that quick list off the top of my head.


one obvious one surely...J G Ballard.....another genre-transcendant dystopia-merchant

(..love to fellow Tolkies on here...wouldn;t have marked the Riddler down as one I must say )
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Re: Top 100 Science-Fiction, Fantasy Books

Postby justdrew » Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:25 am



Twilight was about them as they crept back to the lane. The West wind was sighing in the branches. Leaves were whispering. Soon the road began to fall gently but steadily into the dusk. A star came out above the trees in the darkening East before them. They went abreast and in step, to keep up their spirits. After a time, as the stars grew thicker and brighter, the feeling of disquiet left them, and they no longer listened for the sound of hoofs. They began to hum softly, as hobbits have a way of doing as they walk along, especially when they are drawing near to home at night. With most hobbits it is a supper-song or a bed-song; but these hobbits hummed a walking-song (though not, of course, without any mention of supper and bed). Bilbo Baggins had made the words, to a tune that was as old as the hills, and taught it to Frodo as they walked in the lanes of the Water-valley and talked about Adventure.

Upon the hearth the fire is red,
Beneath the roof there is a bed;
But not yet weary are our feet,
Still round the corner we may meet
A sudden tree or standing stone
That none have seen but we alone.

Tree and flower and leaf and grass,
Let them pass! Let them pass!
Hill and water under sky,
Pass them by! Pass them by!

Still round the corner there may wait
A new road or a secret gate,
And though we pass them by today,
Tomorrow we may come this way
And take the hidden paths that run
Towards the Moon or to the Sun.

Apple, thorn, and nut and sloe,
Let them go! Let them go!
Sand and stone and pool and dell,
Fare you well! Fare you well!

Home is behind, the world ahead,
And there are many paths to tread
Through shadows to the edge of night,
Until the stars are all alight.
Then world behind and home ahead,
We’ll wander back to home and bed.

Mist and twilight, cloud and shade,
Away shall fade! Away shall fade!
Fire and lamp, and meat and bread,
And then to bed! And then to bed!
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Re: Top 100 Science-Fiction, Fantasy Books

Postby Hammer of Los » Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:57 am

...

Hey everyone!

Check out the link for the animated versions of The Hobbit and LoTR (the first part only, sequel(s) were planned but never came to fruition, to my enormous disappointment). The animated LoTR was directed by Ralph Bakshi! Almost as good as Crumb or Freleng! You can't go wrong! Much better than Peter Jackson!

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLE4A1BA6305BA9B2A

...
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Re: Top 100 Science-Fiction, Fantasy Books

Postby Bruce Dazzling » Mon Dec 05, 2011 11:14 am

Camp Concentration, by Thomas M. Disch has to be on that list, as do any number of Stephen Baxter books.

Carry on.
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Re: Top 100 Science-Fiction, Fantasy Books

Postby Hammer of Los » Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:18 am

...

Alan Garner! How could I fail to put Alan Garner on my list!

I feel so ashamed.
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