Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

[DrEvil]

@BS: See my reply to Streeb.

You wrote:

To be called a 'zealot' for simply attempting to maintain historical human rights is a testament to how far -- and how quickly -- we've fallen.

Quite the dutiful soldier on behalf of Authoritarian Empire you've turned into, eh? You're not alone in this regard.

This is why I called you a zealot. Anyone who doesn't agree with you 100% on this subject is a dutiful soldier of Authoritarian Empire. Not someone you simply disagree with, but a straight up fascist. Nuance is strictly verboten. You keep talking about the dangers of "othering" people, yet you've been consistently doing it throughout this thread.

Also, about historical human rights: you do know that vaccine mandates have been perfectly legal in the US for over a century, right? If you join the military the vaccines they administer aren't voluntary. If you go to public school the vaccines they administer aren't voluntary. Vaccine mandates aren't a new thing. I do agree that mandating a new vaccine is really bad, but the legality of it is well founded.

[Harvey]

^ Anyone who could articulate what they stand for would be a start.

[Harvey]

My reasons for believing the above are simple: it's what we did where I live and it (so far at least) worked. The majority of people are vaccinated, restrictions are lifted and life is back to normal.

Circular reasoning.

[Harvey]

[Project Willow]

Politicians have to do something. That is what drives the hysteria, the propaganda, the perpetual emergency -- the disconnect between the expectations placed on global leadership and the actual capabilities of global leadership.

This is little different from TSA era "security theater" responses. Given the imperative to do something, the nearest "something" in reach tends to become the emergent consensus. That reach is proscribed by lobbyists and think tanks. Which is why so much money is dumped into those two dubious industries. Whenever there is another crisis -- and there shall always be another crisis, from here to forever -- it's very important to have your solutions immediately within reach; powerpoints; whitepapers; briefings at the ready.

When the "something" also represents a mutually beneficial opportunity for profit, all the better.

At this point, we can be pretty sure of a few things, most foundational of all being the fact that this will be around for decades to come, and only be "eradicated" through a coordinated and disciplined PR campaign to ignore it.

Equally important is the fact that we still don't know what this is and what global leadership was briefed on in the early months of the outbreak. We can infer a great deal, especially in light of the fact that existing guidelines and consensus science on respiratory outbreaks was chucked out of the window and major expert organizations had such a curiously difficult time nailing down the parameters of transmission.

But anyone with deep doubts about the efficacy and safety of the vaccines must also concede that if Big Pharma boogeymen & bastards nailed one product feature, it was "not killing customers before they can get at least one booster shot." I have no doubt that side effects are both real and suppressed, as with pretty much any other product they've produced, but they're also not common enough to be obvious when we look at the longitudinal data yet.

Consider the effect of respirators on case fatalities: this is a story so obvious it will continue to trickle out and eventually be acknowledged as a regrettable mistake (which, somehow, was our fault, not theirs). There is nothing this clear cut for adverse vaccine effects at scale. Grated, a big part of that might just be how piss poor the data and tracking infrastructure is for this rush job.

The biggest risk is a death loop where nCoV continues to get stronger every year in the face of widespread but inevitably incomplete vaccination, cycling through poor countries and animal reservoirs -- and, as even the perkiest vaccine cheerleaders and flaks concede, cycling through vaccinated human beings, too. That's actually pretty likely, not to mention hugely profitable, a dream outcome for vampire MBAs.

Another obvious risk, and probable outcome, is that the efficacy data was always over-stated and carefully selected and the vaccines will not work as well as advertised, in addition to that protection dropping off over a matter of months. This fall and winter is the big test. All of the efficacy data is based on the spring and summer; training wheels before the trial by fire.

The black swan tail risk is that the vaccines have some kind of long-term side effect nobody predicted that will go from persistent anecdote to undeniable statistical fact. This is, let's be clear, the least probable of the three. I suspect that these drugs will wash out to be "mostly harmless" and ideally, marginally useful. Keep an eye on older age cohorts on that count.

No data, no crisis. It is by design. General Dynamics runs the VAERS system.

There are doctor and nurse whistleblowers coming forward all over the planet, story after story about how their colleagues are in deep denial and virtually no one is reporting adverse events. Online support groups for people who lost loved ones or who are suffering themselves, with hundreds of thousands of members, one after another banned from various social media. End of year excess death data will be interesting, but then those numbers will also include cancers and heart attacks left untreated due to lockdowns. The media will probably find some way to blame it all on the unvaxxed.

The signals for ADE were fairly weak over the summer, but they're growing. The evidence that it's the vaccinated who are generating the variants is also growing, including genetic analyses showing anomalous mutation in the spike protein, compared to other parts of the virus.

Although there's little evidence for it, I don't think everyone who got jabbed is getting a vaccine dose. I'd guess at least a quarter are getting saline. The blood disorders, the micro-clotting, tens of thousands of women with abnormal menstrual cycles 6 months on, people may feel relatively fine now but we have no way of knowing the long term effects of damage to reproductive, circulatory, brain and nervous systems. I think the vaccines are highly dangerous and we've only gotten a small glimpse at the beginning of the destruction. I sincerely hope I'm wrong.



Anyway, Hi everyone. Never thought I'd post here again, but after seeing that MAGA thread, I wanted to poke my head up in support of those who've been sounding the alarm bells over the past year or so. Don't you all know we're in the midst of global fascist take over? The time for allergic reactions to red or blue is long since past. It's fairly ironic to reject certain voices and sources given that it's primarily self identified liberals bringing the boots down on our faces right now. I've become allergic to authoritarianism, even the slightest whiff of it, which is why I bolted from here. Hope you're all well and taking care of yourselves.

[Laodicean]

[Harvey]

[Harvey]

[Belligerent Savant]

.
Awesome to see PWillow chime in!
And insightful, naturally.

Also: Russell Brand -- a voice of intelligence, reason, and empathy. Always enjoy listening to his takes over the past ~year.

[Belligerent Savant]

@BS: See my reply to Streeb.

You wrote:

To be called a 'zealot' for simply attempting to maintain historical human rights is a testament to how far -- and how quickly -- we've fallen.

Quite the dutiful soldier on behalf of Authoritarian Empire you've turned into, eh? You're not alone in this regard.

This is why I called you a zealot. Anyone who doesn't agree with you 100% on this subject is a dutiful soldier of Authoritarian Empire. Not someone you simply disagree with, but a straight up fascist. Nuance is strictly verboten. You keep talking about the dangers of "othering" people, yet you've been consistently doing it throughout this thread.

Also, about historical human rights: you do know that vaccine mandates have been perfectly legal in the US for over a century, right? If you join the military the vaccines they administer aren't voluntary. If you go to public school the vaccines they administer aren't voluntary. Vaccine mandates aren't a new thing. I do agree that mandating a new vaccine is really bad, but the legality of it is well founded.

Anyone that doesn't agree with me 100%?? Where did I ever suggest such a thing? This is highly dishonest on your part as you never made your position clear until, apparently (haven't read it yet), your prior posting replying to streeb. Congrats, it only took 260 pages.

I've typed many times here that my primary/overall objections are with the fucking coercion and forcing of these shots (or largely useless masks) on the populace. CHOICE -- this is what i've been clamoring for.

Of course, i may have differing views on how 'safe' and 'effective' these shots are -- and as each month passes the safety and effectiveness of these shots become increasingly dubious -- but i never raised an objection to anyone choosing to get a shot.

And yes, if one is ok with forced mandates of any kind, given what is currently known -- and/or not known -- about these shots, or the actual lethality of the virus, what else are they but brainwashed or dutiful soldiers?

What aspect of these mandates are reasonable, just, or justifiable given all current available data?

Why would anyone be OK with current measures unless conditioned, brainwashed, or simply indifferent to anything other than dominant narratives?

Convince me otherwise.


Also: you devalue your position by comparing current shots to any historical vaccines, or current mandates/policies to any prior scenarios. There's a reason a significant number of military service men and women (and health care professionals, etc) are refusing to take these shots. Why haven't they likewise done so for the prior vaccine requirements? Please, tell me.

(Edits to typos)

One more edit to add: Sweden didn't impose many of the mandates. They never forced vaccination. Yes, they have relatively high vaccination rates by CHOICE (64%, lower than Norway's 72%).
Sweden has also dropped restrictions.

And what about Japan, with their relatively lower vaxx rates (59%)? They also dropped restrictions.

Now let's also look at regions in India that focused on Ivermectin as primary treatment:

Uttar Pradesh on Ivermectin: Population 240 Million [4.9% fully vaccinated]

COVID Daily Cases: 26

COVID Daily Deaths: 3

Delhi on Ivermectin: Population 31 Million [15% fully vaccinated]

COVID Daily Cases: 61

COVID Daily Deaths: 2

Uttarakhand on Ivermectin: Population 11.4 Million [15% fully vaccinated]

COVID Daily Cases: 24

COVID Daily Deaths: 0

https://www.thedesertreview.com/opinion ... 19364.html

Your argument for mandates is highly selective and does not offer compelling justification for them, particularly when comparing against other countries/regions that took other less authoritarian/draconian approaches, or otherwise revised their policies over time.

[stickdog99]

Love you, PW! Best to you and yours as always.

It's been an abysmal education for me to see my "leftist" political bedfellows first not just embracing but deifying military-intelligence assets to "save" them from Trump and then not just embracing but demanding authoritarian dictats to "save" them from COVID-19.

From Russia hate to Pfizer worship, the corporate media have played the professional managerial class like the shallow, self-righteous, smugly paternalistic "I'll forgive the oligarchs I serve anything just as long as they give me someone to look down upon" strings they are.

[stickdog99]

My biggest problem with DrEvil and mentalgongfu2 is their continued attempts to make the "tenor" of this discussion the biggest issue.

Sorry, but one can't defend unjustifiable majority totalitarianism merely by deriding its minority critics for being too vitriolic.

Yes, I am arguing fiercely. But that is only because my former friends are literally threatening to kill me and anyone like me who dares to resist their indefensible authoritarian mandates.

[drstrangelove]

I think they're safer than the virus. I don't subscribe to the idea that it's just another flu like some here do. With an IFR of 0.2% that's almost 700K dead in the US if you assume everyone eventually gets it. Then repeat that exercise with probably lower numbers every year as the virus mutates and immunity becomes obsolete, so basically, a really bad flu season every year.

For myself, I got vaccinated because my lungs are a burning heap of trash and probably wouldn't go well with the coronavirus. And yes, I think it was correct policy to vaccinate as many as possible, because there weren't really any good alternatives, but I think it should be entirely voluntary, and the government should make a point of saying that often and loudly. Side effects should also be openly discussed and reported on, so people have the best information possible available. For young people I think it should be left up to them. If they want it they should get it, but if they don't it should make no difference. And finally, corona-passes and apartheid treatment of the unvaccinated is a big no-no.

For healthcare workers I'm conflicted. They work with vulnerable people every day, exactly the people most at risk to the virus, so they do have an extra obligation of care, and being a nurse or a doctor isn't a human right. I can see both sides of the argument, and haven't really made up my mind one way or the other.

My reasons for believing the above are simple: it's what we did where I live and it (so far at least) worked. The majority of people are vaccinated, restrictions are lifted and life is back to normal.

I can get behind any view that is based on an accurate IFR with a stratified risk assessment.

Check out that aspiration video I posted a page or two back. It appears inadvertently injecting the vaccine into a blood vessel could be behind alot of the post vax complications, which can be easily avoided through getting the person who gives the shot to 'aspirate'.

It's common sense that the needle shouldn't draw blood if it's been correctly inserted into the muscle, which is where the mRNA is meant to stay, never getting into the blood stream. Worth thinking about if you are getting booster shots.

[Marionumber1]

Glad to see you popping back in again, PW!

To respond to another point that came up in this thread:

Also, about historical human rights: you do know that vaccine mandates have been perfectly legal in the US for over a century, right? If you join the military the vaccines they administer aren't voluntary. If you go to public school the vaccines they administer aren't voluntary. Vaccine mandates aren't a new thing. I do agree that mandating a new vaccine is really bad, but the legality of it is well founded.

I've seen this argument made as if it's some powerful rebuttal to people who oppose vaccine mandates, but it really isn't. Legal precedent doesn't automatically make something morally or even constitutionally justifiable; for much of US history, legal precedent allowed racial segregation while barring worker protections and minimum wage laws. Sometimes legal precedent gets overturned when the prior reasoning is found to be faulty, so if there is good reason to believe that was the case, we should not oppose efforts to challenge such a precedent. The only question that should matter is whether the precedent makes sense on its own constitutional merits.

[mentalgongfu2]

Yes, I am arguing fiercely. But that is only because my former friends are literally threatening to kill me and anyone like me who dares to resist their indefensible authoritarian mandates.

Threatening to kill you?