Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

[DrEvil]

What exactly is it about these vaccines that make so many so fucking intent on forcing them on everyone? Is there something in the mRNA that turns people into indictive tribalist asshole corporate totalitarians?

Oh, quit playing stupid. If one accepts that the vaccine is safe and effective (which I understand you do not), then it means there are a ton of assholes out there refusing to take a safe and effective medical remedy that could neutralize the virus that has been screwing up life for everyone for one and a half years, while those same assholes are actively discouraging people from taking the remedy based mostly on youtube videos from pro-Trump "the election was stolen" idiots and then blaming the precaution-taking people for the reason life still isn't back to normal.

You may not agree with it, but it is extremely disingenuous for anyone here to pretend they can't understand it.

What else can this be called but an egregiously stupid and lazy take?

First off, i interpreted Stickdog's rhetorical question as one directed largely on govts/bureaucracies, ("forcing them on everyone"), and also NOT specifically directed towards the U.S. (indeed, he was replying to comments from drstrangelove, who was referring to his home country of Australia), so your reference to Trump and/or 'Trumptards' is both obtuse and insular.

It's also comically myopic.

These shots are not 'safe and effective' in all instances. They don't curb spread. They don't prevent anyone from catching it. So the justification for FORCING it is non-existent. No one should be forced to take these shots under any conditions.

Not to mention the most glaring omission in all this stupid mindset you convey here: there are demonstrably effective treatments -- other than these goddamned shots -- that have been actively suppressed (criminal acts on their own, as these suppression tactics have absolutely cost many lives/livelihoods). These faulty/leaky vaccines are far from the lone option available for treatment, and almost all of these alternative treatments are less harmful, both in the short and long term (no one right now even knows the potential long-term harms of these shots).

Amazing, almost 2 years into this, we have to read insipid shit like this here.

If you had any self-awareness you'd cut yourself off, in shame, from typing such nonsense.

Instead, i'll commit the act on myself on your behalf.

Time off for the stupidity of others.


(In the event your response was intended as your interpretation of what a typical 'anti covid vaxxer' thinks rather than what you yourself may think, all of the above applies regardless)

How is that a stupid or lazy take? Whether you like it or not, the majority of people think you're the crazy one. The mainstream narrative isn't exactly a secret: get vaccinated so we can get a handle on the pandemic. If you start from that viewpoint it's perfectly logical that they would want as many as possible vaccinated. Pretending that it's some big mystery why they're pushing vaccines is the stupid and lazy take.

Also, people are freaking out about the mRNA vaccines and their potential long-term effects, but I never see them freak out about the RNA virus causing this pandemic and its potential long-term effects.

Incidence, co-occurrence, and evolution of long-COVID features: A 6-month retrospective cohort study of 273,618 survivors of COVID-19
https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/ ... 03773.s003

Symptoms and Health Outcomes Among Survivors of COVID-19 Infection 1 Year After Discharge From Hospitals in Wuhan, China
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamane ... le/2784558

You're still missing the fucking point.

The point is, simply, that there is no justification for coercing or forcing anyone to take these shots. Period.

And no one said anything about coercion or forcing people to do anything. Learn to read.

Each person has the human right -- especially for a virus with an IFR of 0.2% at most, for chrissakes -- to CHOOSE, without duress, if a shot is for them. They should have every right to refuse, as these fucking shots do not protect anyone else (nor the participant) from getting covid.
(Among myriad other health and ethical issues with a One Size Fits All/Everyone Must Get Inoculated unprecedented approach to a highly survivable virus).

How much more plainly does this need to be fucking spelled out?

And again, no one said anything about any of that.

Next you'll share all the storylines about 'overwhelmed hospitals'. If you're still buying the storylines at face value at this point there's nothing more to say here.

Oooohh. Straw man. I'm this close to a bullshit bingo.

(And i love the comment about majority opinion. There've been many times in history when majority fucking opinion was -- at times devastatingly -- wrong*)

*majority opinion in the current era should come with a heavy disclaimer, in any event, as so much of it is shaped by PR/marketing/conditioning/controlled media narratives. For fuck's sake.

No one said they support the majority opinion, I merely pointed out that the majority disagrees with you, which you damn well know, or you wouldn't be in here ranting in the first place. Once again, learn to read.

I know it can be hard for a zealot like you to see things from the perspective of your enemies (both real and imagined), but you really should try it some time, because right now you're confusing people trying to make you see something from a different viewpoint without necessarily agreeing with that viewpoint with enemies. If your worldview is so rigid that even attempting to see something from the opposing view is enough to send you into a frothing rage you might want to consider your own advice and take some time off.

[Laodicean]

^

like it or not, the majority of people think you're the crazy one.

[stickdog99]

https://twitter.com/DRAFZALNIAZ2/status ... 9569346563

[stickdog99]

https://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1 ... 4469624832

Of course, these vaccines have not yet even been approved for 5 to 12-year-olds.

Meanwhile: https://globalnews.ca/news/8230477/onta ... -18-to-24/

According to data released on Wednesday, the risk of the development of the heart condition is 1 in 5,000 for males aged 18 to 24 following a second dose of Moderna.

So this mandate is all about the safety of these children. Right?

[mentalgongfu2]

The complete lack of reading comprehension exhibited in the last 2 pages by the usual suspects is simply astounding.

[stickdog99]

Way to address these issues head on!

[mentalgongfu2]

No need to waste my time on your disingenuous strawmen when the good Doctor already wasted his explaining the obvious. That is already more response than your absurd vitriol merits.

[streeb]

Mental and Evil, do you think the vaccines are safe? Was it correct policy to vaccinate in such enormous numbers? Has this policy ameliorated the crisis? Should these vaccines be given to healthy people aged 5 - 24? Is it justifiable to separate the unvaccinated from the general population in non-essential venues like a restaurant? Should healthcare workers be removed from their jobs for refusing this vaccine?

I'm genuinely curious about where you stand on these basic questions.

[drstrangelove]

That Aussie premiere who was forced to resign is the one that said she would do away with vaccine passports by Dec 1st. Not defending her, but compared to all other state leaders in Australia, she has been the only one to somewhat challenge what the chief health officers of her state were telling her to do .

While I accept that she may have been removed for reasons other than her own corruption, did she actually challenge anything or merely say that that she intended to?

Her corruption scandal was months ago. She is clearly guilty, so the charges themselves are not questionable, only the timing of bringing them to bear upon her ability to govern, right at this moment.

She survived this corruption scandal. The media cycle surrounding it passed. And now all of a sudden, without warning, she resigns.

Her state of NSW has been more targeted in their police measures. Essentially there is a police state in poor areas and very little enforcement in rich areas. The city of Sydney itself is very compliant. Mostly a corporate workforce population, doesn't really have any complex cultural traits that can amount to civil unrest.

More importantly, NSW has dealt with the pandemic much better than Victoria. Its population hasn't been in multiple extended lockdowns for 18 months. Less businesses have been closed etc.

However, what Gladys (her name) had announced over the last few weeks was that vaccine passports would be effectively abolished come December. Meaning they would only be in place for a little over a month, then things would go back to normal. She had somewhat become the face of the "let's open Australia back up" political movement. She is moderate conservative politically.

It will be interesting to see if her roadmap changes under whoever replaces her. If her less austere opening up approach is reversed by whoever takes power, then it will be clear why she was made to resign when she did, and pretty much confirm something I've suspected for a while now.

If that's the case I'll have something to do for the next few months. I love a good investigation into deep state powers. It's my little game in life.

[stickdog99]

Mental and Evil, do you think the vaccines are safe? Was it correct policy to vaccinate in such enormous numbers? Has this policy ameliorated the crisis? Should these vaccines be given to healthy people aged 5 - 24? Is it justifiable to separate the unvaccinated from the general population in non-essential venues like a restaurant? Should healthcare workers be removed from their jobs for refusing this vaccine?

I'm genuinely curious about where you stand on these basic questions.

No vitriol. Just intense curiosity about all of this, and whether you both also think that those who already recovered from COVID-19 should be fired from their jobs for not getting mRNA vaccines.

[Belligerent Savant]

Mental and Evil, do you think the vaccines are safe? Was it correct policy to vaccinate in such enormous numbers? Has this policy ameliorated the crisis? Should these vaccines be given to healthy people aged 5 - 24? Is it justifiable to separate the unvaccinated from the general population in non-essential venues like a restaurant? Should healthcare workers be removed from their jobs for refusing this vaccine?

I'm genuinely curious about where you stand on these basic questions.

No vitriol. Just intense curiosity about all of this, and whether you both also think that those who already recovered from COVID-19 should be fired from their jobs for not getting mRNA vaccines.

Thank you Streeb (and stickdog).

Mentalgfu and DrEvil: your answers to these simple questions would help make your positions clear, as -- to this point -- neither of you (nor a number of others here) have made your positions clear.
You're quick to point out and clarify what you didn't say, so now, for our edification, please state, plainly, where you stand on the above points.

You indicate lack of 'reading comprenension' when it's more a function of vaguery and/or lack of clarity in your/gongfu's positions on this.

We've made it quite fucking clear that our primary position is that coercion tactics/vaccine mandates are wrong/criminal. Forcing anyone to take a (leaky) shot for a flu-like virus with a high survival rate as a condition for employment, commerce or travel is absolutely unethical and against any semblance of human rights.
(Particularly without regard for prior infection status, and also without regard for other effective -- and safer -- treatment options).

Spell it out for us, once and for all, FFS.
Answer the questions quoted above from streeb and stickdog.

Also: what makes me a 'zealot'? Explain that one to me, please. Being against FORCED vaccination for ALL populations/demographics makes me a zealot? Being against forced mask wearing, especially of children, makes me a zealot?

Those that are FOR mandates, forced 'vaccination' and forced masking are the fucking zealots. This is a weak inversion attempt.

Clearly, the zealots are those attempting to remove informed consent and personal medical CHOICE as an option.
To be called a 'zealot' for simply attempting to maintain historical human rights is a testament to how far -- and how quickly -- we've fallen.

Quite the dutiful soldier on behalf of Authoritarian Empire you've turned into, eh? You're not alone in this regard.


Lastly: i contest this notion that being against forced vaccination broadly, and specifically as a condition for employment, is a 'minority opinion'. A testament to media conditioning to state this with any confidence.

Worldwide ongoing protests make clear there is strong opposition to this. It appears working class peoples and non-urban areas are broadly against it.

And in any event, per my last comment on this: a majority opinion (influenced at least in part by blatant propaganda) on unprecedented policy does not in any way mean it's right or justified, needless to say.

There was a time when much of the above was needless to say, here.

[drstrangelove]

Interesting thing about the vaccine is that once you've had it, those justifying not having had it can only hope to undermine your sense of security having had it, which is why you got it.

I can understand why vaccinated people do no appreciate certain questions being asked, or in some cases prematurely answered.

That said, I have a special kind of hatred for those advocating for child vaccination at this point.

[streeb]

drstrangelove said:

Interesting thing about the vaccine is that once you've had it, those justifying not having had it can only hope to undermine your sense of security having had it, which is why you got it.

I can understand why vaccinated people do no appreciate certain questions being asked, or in some cases prematurely answered.

Very true and I try to remember this, although even the social-political questions tend to be met with a shrug or at best lip-service. A very creepy kind of silent acceptance and attendant discrimination has set in here. Maybe it's authoritarianism with "Canadian characteristics", lol.

But this:

That said, I have a special kind of hatred for those advocating for child vaccination at this point.

Yeah. Mine is off the charts.

[Wombaticus Rex]

Politicians have to do something. That is what drives the hysteria, the propaganda, the perpetual emergency -- the disconnect between the expectations placed on global leadership and the actual capabilities of global leadership.

This is little different from TSA era "security theater" responses. Given the imperative to do something, the nearest "something" in reach tends to become the emergent consensus. That reach is proscribed by lobbyists and think tanks. Which is why so much money is dumped into those two dubious industries. Whenever there is another crisis -- and there shall always be another crisis, from here to forever -- it's very important to have your solutions immediately within reach; powerpoints; whitepapers; briefings at the ready.

When the "something" also represents a mutually beneficial opportunity for profit, all the better.

At this point, we can be pretty sure of a few things, most foundational of all being the fact that this will be around for decades to come, and only be "eradicated" through a coordinated and disciplined PR campaign to ignore it.

Equally important is the fact that we still don't know what this is and what global leadership was briefed on in the early months of the outbreak. We can infer a great deal, especially in light of the fact that existing guidelines and consensus science on respiratory outbreaks was chucked out of the window and major expert organizations had such a curiously difficult time nailing down the parameters of transmission.

But anyone with deep doubts about the efficacy and safety of the vaccines must also concede that if Big Pharma boogeymen & bastards nailed one product feature, it was "not killing customers before they can get at least one booster shot." I have no doubt that side effects are both real and suppressed, as with pretty much any other product they've produced, but they're also not common enough to be obvious when we look at the longitudinal data yet.

Consider the effect of respirators on case fatalities: this is a story so obvious it will continue to trickle out and eventually be acknowledged as a regrettable mistake (which, somehow, was our fault, not theirs). There is nothing this clear cut for adverse vaccine effects at scale. Grated, a big part of that might just be how piss poor the data and tracking infrastructure is for this rush job.

The biggest risk is a death loop where nCoV continues to get stronger every year in the face of widespread but inevitably incomplete vaccination, cycling through poor countries and animal reservoirs -- and, as even the perkiest vaccine cheerleaders and flaks concede, cycling through vaccinated human beings, too. That's actually pretty likely, not to mention hugely profitable, a dream outcome for vampire MBAs.

Another obvious risk, and probable outcome, is that the efficacy data was always over-stated and carefully selected and the vaccines will not work as well as advertised, in addition to that protection dropping off over a matter of months. This fall and winter is the big test. All of the efficacy data is based on the spring and summer; training wheels before the trial by fire.

The black swan tail risk is that the vaccines have some kind of long-term side effect nobody predicted that will go from persistent anecdote to undeniable statistical fact. This is, let's be clear, the least probable of the three. I suspect that these drugs will wash out to be "mostly harmless" and ideally, marginally useful. Keep an eye on older age cohorts on that count.

[DrEvil]

Mental and Evil, do you think the vaccines are safe? Was it correct policy to vaccinate in such enormous numbers? Has this policy ameliorated the crisis? Should these vaccines be given to healthy people aged 5 - 24? Is it justifiable to separate the unvaccinated from the general population in non-essential venues like a restaurant? Should healthcare workers be removed from their jobs for refusing this vaccine?

I'm genuinely curious about where you stand on these basic questions.

I think they're safer than the virus. I don't subscribe to the idea that it's just another flu like some here do. With an IFR of 0.2% that's almost 700K dead in the US if you assume everyone eventually gets it. Then repeat that exercise with probably lower numbers every year as the virus mutates and immunity becomes obsolete, so basically, a really bad flu season every year.

For myself, I got vaccinated because my lungs are a burning heap of trash and probably wouldn't go well with the coronavirus. And yes, I think it was correct policy to vaccinate as many as possible, because there weren't really any good alternatives, but I think it should be entirely voluntary, and the government should make a point of saying that often and loudly. Side effects should also be openly discussed and reported on, so people have the best information possible available. For young people I think it should be left up to them. If they want it they should get it, but if they don't it should make no difference. And finally, corona-passes and apartheid treatment of the unvaccinated is a big no-no.

For healthcare workers I'm conflicted. They work with vulnerable people every day, exactly the people most at risk to the virus, so they do have an extra obligation of care, and being a nurse or a doctor isn't a human right. I can see both sides of the argument, and haven't really made up my mind one way or the other.

My reasons for believing the above are simple: it's what we did where I live and it (so far at least) worked. The majority of people are vaccinated, restrictions are lifted and life is back to normal.