It's a Man's World!

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Re: It's a Man's World!

Postby slomo » Mon Dec 07, 2015 2:45 pm

Wombaticus Rex » 07 Dec 2015 09:53 wrote:
slomo » Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:34 pm wrote:
Wombaticus Rex » 07 Dec 2015 09:31 wrote:Boy, I thought "male disposability" was an uncontroversial biological concept. Google set me straight.

Pls explain. I know what "male disposability" means, but I'm curious what Google says to you about it.


Just that the phrase is semantically linked by TensorFlow (or whatever the hell) to the work of Warren Farrell, reactionary MRA-as-pejorative blogs, and feminism in general. When I'm logged into gmail, my preferences give me 100 results per page and I don't think I saw anything that wasn't an argument about either "MRAs" or "SJWs," which is perhaps inevitable given how prolific both sides are.

Trapped in the amber of their eternal conflict! Also, obscuring the view. I want cleaner SERPs. Maybe this is something Wolfram Alpha can fix.

I see. I figured that might be what you meant, after reflecting on your comment (you can sometimes be concise to the point of inscrutability). But it's good to get confirmation!

The weird thing is, it should be uncontroversial that men should be treated with full humanity. The fact that it is controversial for some people, even after I've clarified my intentions multiple times, is interesting. I realize that coming out against (modern) feminism has an incendiary effect, but the content of my objection (whether you ultimately call yourself a feminist or not) should not be objectionable. I am actually kind of heartened that, except for a couple of notable exceptions, most people seem to agree with my intentions, even if they disagree with details or semantic points.
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Re: It's a Man's World!

Postby tapitsbo » Mon Dec 07, 2015 2:48 pm

I understand male disposability is a thing, but how are we supposed to characterize cultures that (for example) kill female infants?

Women tending and befriending while men retreat into isolation definitely describes some situations quite well. But how do we explain more overtly patriarchal cultures where there was much more solidarity between men than between women?


***

The rub, slomo, is quite obviously that "full humanity" means very different things to different people.

To some folks it is a relic of genocidal colonialism incarnate, yadda yadda yadda...

(in some ways they have a point, too, not that they are my co-conspirators per se)
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Re: It's a Man's World!

Postby slomo » Mon Dec 07, 2015 2:57 pm

tapitsbo » 07 Dec 2015 10:48 wrote:I understand male disposability is a thing, but how are we supposed to characterize cultures that (for example) kill female infants?

Women tending and befriending while men retreat into isolation definitely describes some situations quite well. But how do we explain more overtly patriarchal cultures where there was much more solidarity between men than between women?


***

The rub, slomo, is quite obviously that "full humanity" means very different things to different people.

To some folks it is a relic of genocidal colonialism incarnate, yadda yadda yadda...

Misogyny in non-western cultures is a thing. As much as it's tempting to go on about cultural sensitivity and love on Islam ... no thanks. Have to draw the line somewhere. There are microagressions, and then there is true misogyny. If correcting true misogyny is a priority for feminists, why not address the huge, gaping, lethal inequalities that exist in fundamentalist Muslim countries before tearing down men as whole for the (relatively speaking) minor inconveniences experienced by women (especially white affluent women) in the west?
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Re: It's a Man's World!

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Mon Dec 07, 2015 3:07 pm

slomo » Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:57 pm wrote:why not address the huge, gaping, lethal inequalities that exist in fundamentalist Muslim countries before tearing down men as whole for the (relatively speaking) minor inconveniences experienced by women (especially white affluent women) in the west?


Geopolitical equivalent of the "Availability Heuristic," innit?

Few political movements see outside the borders of the countries that spawned them.
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Re: It's a Man's World!

Postby tapitsbo » Mon Dec 07, 2015 3:18 pm

I've heard that women in the "rest" are increasingly less envious of women in the "West", for a plethora of reasons.

So there's that, too.
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Re: It's a Man's World!

Postby slomo » Mon Dec 07, 2015 3:21 pm

Wombaticus Rex » 07 Dec 2015 11:07 wrote:
slomo » Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:57 pm wrote:why not address the huge, gaping, lethal inequalities that exist in fundamentalist Muslim countries before tearing down men as whole for the (relatively speaking) minor inconveniences experienced by women (especially white affluent women) in the west?


Geopolitical equivalent of the "Availability Heuristic," innit?

Few political movements see outside the borders of the countries that spawned them.

That's a fair enough critique. However, the rhetoric spawned by modern western feminists vis-a-vis gender inequality in the west, you would think that we were living under Sharia law here (and somehow FGM seems to get frequently brought up in "war against women" discussions, as if it were happening in the west on the same scale and frequency as MGM).

If you want to create programs to encourage girls to enter STEM fields, or hold workshops on healthy alcohol consumption, healthy sexuality, and healthy communication about sex, I'm all for that. But somehow the rhetoric gets dialed up to paint all men as monsters.
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Re: It's a Man's World!

Postby American Dream » Mon Dec 07, 2015 8:33 pm

Image


How Men’s Rights Leader Paul Elam Turned Being A Deadbeat Dad Into A Moneymaking Movement

Paul Elam has become the face of the modern men’s rights movement by rallying against false rape accusations and divorce courts that favor mothers. But exclusive BuzzFeed News interviews with his estranged daughter and ex-wife show that his pet causes are very, very personal.



http://www.buzzfeed.com/adamserwer/how- ... .ms6rvWPXy
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Re: It's a Man's World!

Postby slomo » Mon Dec 07, 2015 9:34 pm

On the subject of Rosie the Riveter, that icon of female industrial working-class can-do attitude:

Image

Geraldine Hoff was born in Inkster, Michigan. Her father Cornelious was an electrical contractor who died of pneumonia when she was 10 years old. Her mother, Augusta, was a composer who had scoliosis. After graduating from high school in Ann Arbor, Michigan, in 1942 Hoff found work as a metal presser in the American Broach & Machine Co. of Ann Arbor.[1][2] As men started enlisting and being drafted into military service for World War II, women began to support the war effort by taking on roles, including factory work, that were formerly considered "male-only."

Because she was a cellist, Hoff feared a hand injury from the metal pressing machines and so she left the factory after having worked for only a couple weeks.[1][3] During the brief time she worked there a United Press International photographer took a picture of her.

That image—re-imagined by graphic artist J. Howard Miller while working for the Westinghouse Company's War Production Coordinating Committee—may have become the basis for the poster Miller created during a Westinghouse anti-absenteeism and anti-strike campaign. Soon after quitting work as a metal presser, Geraldine Hoff met and married dentist Leo Doyle in 1943. The couple had six children (a son, Gary, died in 1980) and remained married until his death in February 2010.[1]

Geraldine Doyle may have been the model for the "We Can Do It!" poster.
Because the "We Can Do It!" poster was created for an internal Westinghouse project, it did not become widely known until the 1980s, when it began to be used by advocates of women's equality in the workplace. Doyle did not know that she may have been the model for "We Can Do It!" until 1984, when she came across an article in Modern Maturity magazine which linked a photo of her to the poster, which she had not seen before.[4] The original UPI photograph was used as the cover image for the Time-Life book The Patriotic Tide: 1940-1950 published in 1986.[5][6] The Rosie the Riveter character, based on Doyle and other World War II-era women who worked in factories to support the war effort, remains an icon and appeared on a 1999 postage stamp as part of a World War II series produced by the U.S. Postal Service.[7]

Oops. Yet another misrepresentation of the truth.
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Re: It's a Man's World!

Postby guruilla » Mon Dec 07, 2015 11:17 pm

norton ash » Mon Dec 07, 2015 2:02 pm wrote:Too many redundant men. Let's hope the Germans can provide the solution, as they have before.

Terence McKenna already did. (Scroll down to video.)
It is a lot easier to fool people than show them how they have been fooled.
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Re: It's a Man's World!

Postby slomo » Mon Dec 07, 2015 11:24 pm

guruilla » 07 Dec 2015 19:17 wrote:
norton ash » Mon Dec 07, 2015 2:02 pm wrote:Too many redundant men. Let's hope the Germans can provide the solution, as they have before.

Terence McKenna already did. (Scroll down to video.)

Eliminate most of the men ... except me of course (sez McKenna and others like him, hi AD!)

But feminism isn't hateful at all. Oh, no.
Valerie Jean Solanas (April 9, 1936 – April 25, 1988) was an American radical feminist writer who is best known for writing the SCUM Manifesto and attempting to murder artist Andy Warhol.

She was born in New Jersey and as a teenager had a volatile relationship with her mother and stepfather after her parents' divorce. As a consequence, she was sent to live with her grandparents. Her alcoholic grandfather physically abused her and Solanas ran away and became homeless. She came out as a lesbian in the 1950s. She graduated with a degree in psychology from the University of Maryland, College Park. Solanas relocated to Berkeley, California. There, she began writing her most notable work, the SCUM Manifesto, which urged women to "overthrow the government, eliminate the money system, institute complete automation and eliminate the male sex."

Solanas moved to New York City in the mid-1960s, working as a writer. She met Andy Warhol and asked Warhol to produce her play, Up Your Ass. She gave him her script, which she later accused him of losing and/or stealing, followed by Warhol expressing additional indifference to her play. After Solanas demanded financial compensation for the lost script, Warhol hired her to perform in his film, I, A Man, paying her $25.

In 1967, Solanas began self-publishing the SCUM Manifesto. Olympia Press owner Maurice Girodias offered to publish Solanas' future writings, and she understood the contract to mean that Girodias would own her writing. Convinced that Girodias and Warhol were conspiring to steal her work, Solanas purchased a gun in the spring of 1968.

On June 3, 1968, she sought out Girodias, who was gone for the weekend. She then went to The Factory, where she found Warhol. She shot at Warhol three times, with the first two shots missing and the final wounding Warhol. She also shot art critic Mario Amaya, and attempted to shoot Warhol's manager, Fred Hughes, point blank, but the gun jammed. Solanas then turned herself in to the police. She was charged with attempted murder, assault, and illegal possession of a gun. She was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia and pleaded guilty to "reckless assault with intent to harm", serving a three-year prison sentence, including treatment in a mental hospital. After her release, she continued to promote the SCUM Manifesto. She died in 1988 of pneumonia, in San Francisco.

That bold part sounds vaguely ... familiar. Talk about "virulence"....
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Re: It's a Man's World!

Postby Nordic » Tue Dec 08, 2015 12:12 am

Valerie Solanis is a representative of the feminist movement like Charles Manson was a typical hippie.
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
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Re: It's a Man's World!

Postby slomo » Tue Dec 08, 2015 12:13 am

Nordic » 07 Dec 2015 20:12 wrote:Valerie Solanis is a representative of the feminist movement like Charles Manson was a typical hippie.

Indeed: pretty easy to bad-jacket a whole movement by pointing out its most extreme members, eh?
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Re: It's a Man's World!

Postby Heaven Swan » Tue Dec 08, 2015 11:05 pm

The Southern Poverty law center has deemed the Men's Rights Movement a hate group.

[url]https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2012/men’s-rights-movement-spreads-false-claims-about-women[/url]

MEN’S RIGHTS MOVEMENT SPREADS FALSE CLAIMS ABOUT WOMEN
Mark Potok and Evelyn Schlatter
March 01, 2012

Misogynists in the men’s and fathers’ rights movements have developed a set of claims about women to support their depictions of them as violent liars and manipulators of men.

Misogynists in the men’s and fathers’ rights movements have developed a set of claims about women to support their depictions of them as violent liars and manipulators of men. Some suggest that women attack men, even sexually, just as much as men attack women. Others claim that vast numbers of reported rapes of women, as much as half or even more, are fabrications designed to destroy men they don’t like or to gain the upper hand in contested custody cases. What follows is a brief look at some of these claims and what the best science really shows.

THE CLAIM Men’s rights activists often insist that men are victimized by sex crimes and abuse just as much as women are, if not more. This assertion is meant to support their contention that the courts and laws outrageously favor women.

THE REALITY A major 2010 study by the Centers for Disease Control’s National Center for Injury Prevention and Control thoroughly debunks such claims. Nearly one in five American women (18.3%), the study found, have been raped; the comparable number for men is one in 71 (1.4%). Not only that, but more than half (51.1%) of female victims reported that their rapist was an intimate partner — a current or former spouse or boyfriend, or a date. According to a 2000 study by the Department of Justice, female rape victims were also about twice as likely as male rape victims to be injured during an assault (31.5% versus 16.5%), even though many women do not physically resist their attackers for fear of injury. Overall, the studies found, most violence of all kinds against women (64%) came from current or former intimate partners, while that is true for only about one-sixth (16.2%) of men. Women were also far more likely to be stalked than men (16.2% versus 5.2%), and two-thirds of women’s stalkers (66.2%) were current or former intimate partners, compared to four in 10 for men (41.4%). A 2005 Department of Justice study also found that between 1998 and 2002, 84% of spousal abuse victims were female, as were 86% of victims of abuse at the hands of a dating partner. Males made up 83% of all spouse murderers and 75% of dating partner murderers.

THE CLAIM In another effort to show that men are discriminated against, many men’s rights activists assert that women attack men just as much as men attack women, if not more. The website MensActivism.org is one of many that criticizes what it characterizes as “the myth that women are less violent than men.”

THE REALITY Men’s rights groups often cite the work of Deborah Capaldi, a researcher with the Oregon Learning Center, to back their claim. Capaldi did find that women sometimes initiate partner violence, although women involved in mutually aggressive partner relationships were more likely to suffer severe injuries than the men. But Capaldi studied only a very particular subset of the population — at-risk youth — rather than women in general, invalidating any claim that her findings applied generally. In fact, the 2000 Department of Justice study found that violence against both women and men is predominantly male violence. Nine in 10 women (91.9%) who were physically assaulted since the age of 18 were attacked by a male, while about one in seven male assault victims (14.2%) were victimized by females. Similarly, all female rape victims in the study were attacked by a male, while about a third of male victims (35.8%) were raped by a female.

THE CLAIM Close to half or even more of the sexual assaults reported by women never occurred. Versions of this claim are a mainstay of sites like Register-Her.com, which specializes in vilifying women who allegedly lie about being raped. Such claims are also sometimes made by men involved in court custody battles.

THE REALITY This claim, which has gained some credence in recent years, is largely based on a 1994 article in the Archives of Sexual Behavior by Eugene Kanin that found that 41% of rape allegations in his study were “false.” But Kanin’s methodology has been widely criticized, and his results do not accord with most other findings. Kanin researched only one unnamed Midwestern town, and he did not spell out the criteria police used to decide an allegation was false. The town also polygraphed or threatened to polygraph all alleged victims, a now-discredited practice that is known to cause many women to drop their complaint even when it is true. In fact, most studies that suggest high rates of false accusations make a key mistake — equating reports described by police as “unfounded” with those that are false. The truth is that unfounded reports very often include those for which no corroborating evidence could be found or where the victim was deemed an unreliable witness (often because of drug or alcohol use or because of prior sexual contact with the attacker). They also include those cases where women recant their accusations, often because of a fear of reprisal, a distrust of the legal system or embarrassment because drugs or alcohol were involved. The best studies, where the rape allegations have been studied in detail, suggest a rate of false reports of somewhere between 2% and 10%. The most comprehensive study, conducted by the British Home Office in 2005, found a rate of 2.5% for false accusations of rape. The best U.S. investigation, the 2008 “Making a Difference” study, found a 6.8% rate.


The Southern Poverty law center has deemed the Men's Rights Movement a hate group.


Misogyny: the Sites

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2012/misogyny-sites
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Re: It's a Man's World!

Postby Heaven Swan » Tue Dec 08, 2015 11:13 pm

And what about Eric Roger?

http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-uncomfortable-truths-behind-mens-rights-movement/

5 Uncomfortable Truths Behind the Men's Rights Movement

Until recently, you probably thought that the "men's rights movement" was just a weird fad on the Internet for sad, depressed guys who wanted to vent about their sexual frustrations, no more or less important to your day-to-day life than, say, people raging against bad movie reviews or complaining that their favorite video game company doesn't like them. But then something like the UCSB shooting happens, where a 22-year-old kid kills seven people and blames it on all the sex he never had, and you have to ask yourself: Is this group actually a problem?

Holy shit, yes. I spoke to Frank Meeink, a former white supremacist, and Michael Kimmel, a professor of sociology, about the men's rights movement, and I found out that it has less in common with any civil rights or equality movement than it does with goddamn neo-Nazis. Particularly with how ...

Read entire article here:

http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-uncomfortable-truths-behind-mens-rights-movement/
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Re: It's a Man's World!

Postby guruilla » Tue Dec 08, 2015 11:47 pm

Maybe misogyny exists, maybe misandry exists. Child abuse definitely exists.

Maybe I am too simple-minded about this, but if feminists do not want to be thought of as a weaker sex, then why do they want their travails to be given special priority? Do feminists honestly, truly think they are suffering disproportionately to men? Or is it about payback?

As far as I have gleaned, admittedly not reading all of it and none of AD's posts, this thread is about the reality of men being exploited, oppressed, and abused by the so-called Patriarchy, and in relation to that, the over-emphasis, and possible exaggeration, of the dire-ness of conditions for women in the western world of 2015? Does citing an example of a MRA group with misogynist leanings really address this question? If so, does slomo or someone else citing a feminist group that preaches misandry then redress that imbalance, until someone else can bring out another example of male misogyny, and so on? Is it about keeping score to see who comes out on top, as the most victimized victim?

These are just questions, & not meant as provocations, as I try to get a fix on something that keeps changing every time I lean in to look at it.
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