TRUMP is seriously dangerous

[backtoiam]

It's not an implicitly latino term, no. Of course hispanic people would likely be involved in antifa stuff regarding Trump but it is ironic since literal hispanic racial nationalist groups are well embedded in US politics.

Anti-fascism in the contemporary West is basically just about shutting down white identity politics at the same time as it is ultimately interested in quarantining the people it identifies as white.

That makes perfect sense and is sorta what I was thinking anyway. I just wasn't sure. When the gates opened on the border and the migration started in mass I knew the ptb would make hay of the situation. I knew they would start a big mosh pit and throw everybody in it for a new chaos stew. I just didn't know when. You're looking at it. The fun has begun and will increase in the future. This is the template. This is the die. This is the imprint being made for the future. Unfortunately.

[tapitsbo]

Right. Not that different fron the arab spring or entirely unrelated.

[FourthBase]

"Anti-fascists" are just activists against violent, genocidal power. There is no broad organization.

Just out of curiosity, do antifascists ever agitate against violent, genocidal power when it's wielded by non-whites or anti-West regimes?

[tapitsbo]

Luther's right about a lack of broad organization among those who use the term. Like I said both Russia and IS of all people call themselves anti-fascist.

IS is unambiguously a genocidal power along with their funders though. Organized Western antifa have been literally involved in protecting their "honour" in parts of the UK. Surreal that I am not making this up.

Western Antifa definitely didn't care about stuff like NATO killing Serbian civilians as far as I can tell. I can see them showing solidarity with Irish Catholics militants though, lmao.

AD's material for the most part looks as though it's been vetted by the State Department if not worse.

Of course I am using extreme examples, there's a lot of dogshit and mindfuck in the mushy middle.

[Luther Blissett]

"Anti-fascists" are just activists against violent, genocidal power. There is no broad organization.

Just out of curiosity, do antifascists ever agitate against violent, genocidal power when it's wielded by non-whites or anti-West regimes?

Yes, I have seen a lot of anti-fascist activity engaged against Islamic fundamentalists, narcoterrorists, cartels, etc. The Kurdish Women's Protection Units are a great example of this. Seemslikeadream covers a lot of that activity here. But you've been posting here longer than me, you must've seen plenty of threads over the years.

[tapitsbo]

To be fair they a lot of them aren't fans of Israel either although you'd never tell according to some of the organizations. Of course these political conflicts cover way broader territory than "fascism" per se, whatever that is, and absolutely are concerned with defending or attacking the legitimacy of ethnic and other identities. Luther's cool rhetoric suggests a "neutral" universalist antifa whereas he would no doubt reject this in practice.

It's funny that he brings up kurdish groups that are being hung out to dry by the "antifa" supporting USA, meanwhile mainstream leftist publication Jacobin just published an article criticizing Rojava rather fiercely from their comfortable position outside of a warzone.

[tapitsbo]

Back to slad's points about Arpaio, it's tough to see how the corruption in the US and Mexico aren't inextricably linked. Maybe if institutions were more tranparent and accountable less people would be displaced and/or vulnerable to petty sadists like Arpaio, who is obviously exploiting resentment of the current dominant sentiment according to which anyone can be an American as long as they make it there alive (while all sorts of internal borders and exceptionalism are given robust institutional support.) This attitude is not reciprocated elsewhere in the world, to my knowledge.

I think she was responding to a comment by Wombat that contained a wee mote of sarcasm, though.

[FourthBase]

"Anti-fascists" are just activists against violent, genocidal power. There is no broad organization.

Just out of curiosity, do antifascists ever agitate against violent, genocidal power when it's wielded by non-whites or anti-West regimes?

Yes, I have seen a lot of anti-fascist activity engaged against Islamic fundamentalists, narcoterrorists, cartels, etc. The Kurdish Women's Protection Units are a great example of this. Seemslikeadream covers a lot of that activity here. But you've been posting here longer than me, you must've seen plenty of threads over the years.

That's anti-fascist activity. But, no, those are not antifascists. I mean the kind of antifa people who were just agitating against Trump. And, no, I have never seen an example of antifascists like that protesting against non-whites or against anti-West regimes. Would love to be shown a single example of it.

[tapitsbo]

They protested Assad in my neck of the woods. Violent and genocidal? Kinda. You're not going to see them brotest his usually sketchier adversaries though.

It was also funny how the Falun Gong (totally unrelated to antifa but supported by the Canadian government at times) wanted to talk to me about organ trafficking by the CCP but immediately stopped wanting to talk when I suggested it was a global issue.

So yeah the Kant-esque lofty universalism on these topics has some funky dissonance with reality.

Antifa/post-anarchists/radical left cliques in general that I have come into contact with IRL are generally run by the crackerest of crackers (I see we are using this term because of anxiety about "white", it's okay) and have very little interest in sincere discussion about anything. Indigenous activists who seem to have their shit together quite a bit and who are dealing with substantial oppression not the exaggerated kind seem to generally despise these "white saviours"...

Of course in Canada upper class immigrants from societies that do not accept immigration to any great extent LOVE to appropriate the language of the indigenous groups as a form of "anti-racism"... it's all quite fascinating and not at all simple.

[Luther Blissett]

"Anti-fascists" are just activists against violent, genocidal power. There is no broad organization.

Just out of curiosity, do antifascists ever agitate against violent, genocidal power when it's wielded by non-whites or anti-West regimes?

Yes, I have seen a lot of anti-fascist activity engaged against Islamic fundamentalists, narcoterrorists, cartels, etc. The Kurdish Women's Protection Units are a great example of this. Seemslikeadream covers a lot of that activity here. But you've been posting here longer than me, you must've seen plenty of threads over the years.

That's anti-fascist activity. But, no, those are not antifascists. I mean the kind of antifa people who were just agitating against Trump. And, no, I have never seen an example of antifascists like that protesting against non-whites or against anti-West regimes. Would love to be shown a single example of it.

I am fairly (like 90%) certain that the YPJ and YPG see themselves as anti-fascists in the same sense that the White Rose, Anti-Fascist Action, Sandanistas etc were or are anti-fascists, albeit a more "legit" group. There are one or two good threads about them here, and you can reach some of them on twitter or other forms of social media.

The Revolutionary Front in Sweden is a good example of an anti-fascist group who stands up against any form of fascism.

You're going to threaten to punch me in the face for this, but one major tactic of people with whom I have worked has been around raising class consciousness and striking at the root of the problem — the same tactic whether used against white nationalist groups or oppressive anti-west regimes — because I find peace activism and class struggle aimed at wealthy elites to be much more attractive than fundamentalism and terrorism. The success rates vary for this, as you know, and American fascist types are particularly difficult to convince to turn towards the leftwing philosophies of egalitarianism, peace, and cooperation. But then again, I'm a pacifist so maybe this is all a bias.

[tapitsbo]

I thought you were the one who had experience punching faces? My friends with extensive experience in physical fighting seem to suffer some brain damage as a result. I sincerely hope you've avoided this.

I appreciate what you're saying a lot since you are giving me a clearer idea of where you are coming from, still don't see how it's all supposed to fit together.

In the Swedish case there's a ton of context you don't need me to fill in for you. There are a lot of disturbing coercive and violent aspects to the norms of Swedish society and I'm sure you don't want to get into all of that. Or maybe you do want to defend them? Frankly I am convinced that the last few decades have involved warfare against Sweden through social engineering, with a variety of motives.

I understand that pacifism is an actually existing philosophy, especially since I have Quaker ancestors but in practice the pacifist elites are practicing warfare and part of what we're all trying to do here is weigh the evidence about who is "legit". Of course the perception of pacifism is related to the perception of legitimacy. Glenn Greenwald pontificating about oligarchs when the ones he likes are "philanthropists" is a case in point.

The practices of the Kurdish groups are markedly different from Western antifa as a glance at the threads about them reveals. The Kurds at least talk the talk about a certain form of pluralism, whereas I can't read AD's material without seeing it as ultimately being about segregating a certain group out of society and ultimately exterminating them once they are isolated (Gaza giving us a present day example of this kind of thing).

I think it is very, very interesting what guruilla posted about the Quaker role in the establishment of psychiatry, inevitably related to violent coercion in a whole host of fascinating ways. I understand you feel groups like the ones you cited as legit are good guys but to me they're just another flavour of fundamentalism and terrorism at times, and not an inspiring one. I don't even understand their appeal in the slightest which is part of my probing here. I am much more interested in pluralism in terms of politics and I think there are vast, fascinating areas of these subjects that don't consist of terrorism or fundamentalism. Egalitarianism, peace and co-operation is not the track record of the self-styled left (and I can't understand the left ouside of its historical context.) You say you're a pacifist, but what does someone like you do when somebody disagrees with you? Not like in this conversation, but at a critical juncture related to something important to you? It seems to me that you declare them a "fascist" and a suitable target for warfare. Of course in Europe right now we have children used as pawns in this sort of struggle. I used to find it very, very easy to subscribe to leftism and now I find it impossible to do so. This isn't an uncommon transition.

Of course I am not against violence on principle and neither are you as your earlier comments reveal. It's easy to respect indigenous groups that attack fracking equipment, etc. That seems pretty unambiguous. My grandmother tried to assist the Sandinistas during the eighties and of course eventually she was told they did not want or trust outside charity anymore at least in her case. It was somebody else's struggle, which seems quite relevant in a place like RI where we have a lot of people "speaking for" or ventriloquizing marginalized groups. If it comes across that I am doing this it is because I'm just trying to understand the different messages. If I confined myself to narrow echo chambers I would be a lot stupider. This seems relevant to my situation today where I am simply trying to understand the different messages in a place like this. I simply didn't understand the breadth of antifa or the far right (both terms which cleverly conceal as well as reveal) before RI although I've since researched quite a lot more.

I am not going to rule out you just taking the piss, though. I am sure it wouldn't be the first time. I don't mind, you know. I find these conversations helpful.

[Luther Blissett]

I don't get why you think I'm always being insincere.

I grew up fighting throughout my entire adolescence, leading to me deciding I was going to be a pacifist pretty early on, at age 16. Given my career, I'm optimistic that I've escaped brain damage, thank you. I don't give a damn about the philosophy, I just don't want to ever hurt anyone again.

Egalitarianism, peace, cooperation, the rights of the working class, and multiculturalism are the ways that we define "the left" as opposed to the right, hence why I used the term.

[backtoiam]

I'm seeing more and more of this stuff pop up right now, which isn't unusual considering the circumstances.

[backtoiam]

Republican Leaders Map a Strategy to Derail Donald Trump

By ALEXANDER BURNS and JONATHAN MARTINMARCH 19, 2016

Republican leaders adamantly opposed to Donald J. Trump’s candidacy are preparing a 100-day campaign to deny him the presidential nomination, starting with an aggressive battle in Wisconsin’s April 5 primary and extending into the summer, with a delegate-by-delegate lobbying effort that would cast Mr. Trump as a calamitous choice for the general election.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/20/us/po ... .html?_r=1

[82_28]

I don't get why you think I'm always being insincere.

I grew up fighting throughout my entire adolescence, leading to me deciding I was going to be a pacifist pretty early on, at age 16. Given my career, I'm optimistic that I've escaped brain damage, thank you. I don't give a damn about the philosophy, I just don't want to ever hurt anyone again.

Egalitarianism, peace, cooperation, the rights of the working class, and multiculturalism are the ways that we define "the left" as opposed to the right, hence why I used the term.

Never been in a fight my entire life. Never punched one and never been punched (of except for my ex who had grown tired of I guess my cerebral nature -- I had no urge to punch her back -- I just said I can't believe you just fucking punched me and let it go). Bonus is that I'm no fucking pushover. You simply cannot push me around. In turn I never did any of that either. I've pulled some hella stupid pranks but have never had to fight. Stood up for people, etc. Yet I have lived 41 years never having to lay a hand on another.