Questioning Consciousness

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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby Belligerent Savant » Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:28 pm

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http://michaelprescott.typepad.com/mich ... sness.html


A case of cosmic consciousness

Lately, at bedtime, I've been reading bits and pieces of Richard Maurice Bucke's famous 1901 study Cosmic Consciousness: A Study in the Evolution of the Human Mind. The book is a compilation of accounts featuring persons both notable and unknown who underwent mystical experiences that uplifted their thought and character – essentially what psychologist Abraham Maslow called "peak experiences" and what Hindu tradition calls "kundalini experiences."

Some of these accounts are more interesting and persuasive than others. Many of the best are those provided at first hand by Bucke's contemporaries – otherwise ordinary people whose lives were changed by a transcendent sense of oneness with the cosmos lasting anywhere from a few minutes to a few days. One of the most intriguing of these reports is related in Chapter 29 of Part V and involves a woman identified only as C.M.C.

What follows is an abridged version of her story.

I was born in the year 1844. I have been told that as a child I never seemed young – that is, that along with my youth there was an air of thoughtfulness that belongs to more advanced years. I cannot remember a time when I did not think and wonder about God. The beauty and sublimity of nature have always, from early childhood, impressed me deeply.…

The vastness and grandeur of the God which I felt in nature I could never reconcile with the God in the Bible, try as I would, and of course I felt myself a wicked skeptic in consequence. So it went on and though to all appearance I was happy and full of life like other girls, there was always that undercurrent – a vein of sadness deep down, out of sight.…

At twenty-two I was married. Ten years later a change of place broke up the old routine of my life, giving me new associates and new interests. I was thrown into relation with people of more liberal tendencies… From that time, without my going very deeply into the subject, a general idea of evolution was gained, and gradually the old conceptions gave place to more rational ones…. My attitude was that of an agnostic.

There I rested, not altogether content, it is true. Something in life had been missed which it seemed ought to be there; depths in my own nature which had never been sounded; heights I could see, which had not been reached.… An illness, combining extreme bodily prostration with the equally extreme mental and emotional disturbance, revealed to me the depths in my own nature. After some months my strength was restored and my mental condition to some extent improved, but the deep unrest remained. With the power to suffer came the power of sympathy with all suffering. What I had hitherto known or realized of life was as the prick of a pin to the thrust of a dagger. I had been living on the surface; now I was going down into the depths, and as I went deeper and deeper the barriers which had separated me from my fellow men were broken down, the sense of kinship with every living creature had deepened, so that I was oppressed with a double burden. Was I never to no rest or peace again?…

Passing over the interval between this time in September, 1893, as unimportant, except for the constant struggle within me, I proceed to describe, as well as may be, the supreme event of my life, which undoubtedly is related to all else, and is the outcome of those years of passionate search.

I had come to see that my need was greater even than I had thought. The pain and tension deep in the core and center of my being was so great that I felt as might some creature which had outgrown its shell, and yet could not escape. What it was I knew not, except that it was a great yearning – for freedom, for larger life, – for deeper love. There seemed to be no response in nature to that infinite need. The great tide swept on uncaring, pitiless, and strength gone, every resource exhausted, nothing remained but submission. So I said: There must be a reason for it, a purpose in it, even if I cannot grasp it. The Power in whose hands I am may do with me as it will!…

At last, subdued, with a curious, growing strength in my weakness, I let go of myself! In a short time, to my surprise, I began to feel a sense of physical comfort, of rest, as if some strain or tension was removed. Never before had I experienced such a feeling of perfect health. I wondered at it. And how bright and beautiful the day! I looked out at the sky, the hills and the river, amazed that I had never before realized how divinely beautiful the world was! The sense of lightness and expansion kept increasing, the wrinkles smoothed out of everything, there was nothing in all the world that seemed out of place….

The light and color glowed, the atmosphere seemed to quiver and vibrate around and within me. Perfect rest and peace and joy were everywhere, and, more strange than all, there came to me a sense of some serene, magnetic presence – grand and all pervading. The life and joy within me were becoming so intense that by evening I became restless and wandered about the rooms, scarcely knowing what to do with myself. Retiring early that I might be alone, soon all objective phenomena were shut out. I was seeing and comprehending the sublime meaning of things, the reasons for all that had before been hidden and dark. The great truth that life is a spiritual evolution, that this life is but a passing phase in the soul's progression, burst upon my astonished vision with overwhelming grandeur. Oh, I thought, if this is what it means, if this is the outcome, then pain is sublime! Welcome centuries, eons, of suffering if it brings us to this! And still the splendor increased….

I felt myself going, losing myself. Then I was terrified, but with a sweet terror. I was losing my consciousness, my identity, but was powerless to hold myself. Now came a period of rapture, so intense that the universe stood still, as if amazed at the unalterable majesty of the spectacle! Only one in all the infinite universe! The All-loving, the Perfect One! The Perfect Wisdom, truth, love and purity! And with the rapture came the insight. In that same wonderful moment of what might be called supernal bliss, came illumination. I saw with intense inward vision the atoms or molecules, of which seemingly the universe is composed – I know not whether material or spiritual – rearranging themselves, as the cosmos (in its continuous, everlasting life) passes from order to order. What joy when I saw there was no break in the chain – not a link left out – everything in its place and time. Worlds, systems, all blended in one harmonious whole. Universal life, synonymous with universal love!… How long the vision lasted I cannot tell. In the morning I awoke with a slight headache, but with the spiritual sense so strong that what we call the actual, material things surrounding me seemed shadowy or a shadowy and unreal. My point of view was entirely changed. Old things had passed away and all had become new. The ideal had become real, the old real had lost its former reality and had become shadowy. This shadowy unreality of external things did not last many days. Every longing of the heart was satisfied, every question answered, the "pent-up, aching rivers" had reached the ocean – I loved infinitely and was infinitely loved!…

How foolish, how childish, now seemed petulance of discontent in presence of that serene majesty! I had learned the grand lesson, that suffering is the price which must be paid for all that is worth having; that in some mysterious way we are refined and sensitized, doubtless largely by it, so that we are made susceptible to nature's higher and finer influences – this, if true of one, is true of all. And feeling and knowing this, I do not now rave as once I did, but am "silent" "as I sit and look out upon all the sorrow of the world" – "upon all the meanness and agony without end." That sweet eternal smile on nature's face! There is nothing in the universe to compare with it – such joyous repose and sweet unconcern – saying to us, with tenderest love: All is well, always has been and always will be.…

The consciousness of completeness and permanence in myself is one with that of the completeness and permanence of nature. This feeling is quite distinct from any that I had before illumination and has sprung from that. I often ponder on it and wonder what has happened – what change can have taken place in me to so poise and individualize me. My feeling is as if I were as distinct and separate from all other beings and things as is the moon in space and at the same time indissolubly one with all nature.

Out of this experience was born an unfaltering trust. Deep in the soul, below pain, below all the distraction of life, is a silence vast and grand – an infinite ocean of calm, which nothing can disturb; Nature's own exceeding peace, which "passes understanding."


The piece probably doesn't require much comment, but I will note that a major part of C.M.C.'s "illumination" consisted of seeing the order of things:

I saw with intense inward vision the atoms or molecules, of which seemingly the universe is composed – I know not whether material or spiritual – rearranging themselves, as the cosmos (in its continuous, everlasting life) passes from order to order. What joy when I saw there was no break in the chain – not a link left out – everything in its place and time. Worlds, systems, all blended in one harmonious whole.


Though I don't mean to reduce C.M.C.'s highly emotional and life-changing experience to cold, impersonal, quasi-scientfic terms, I can't help noting that this passage possibly relates to an idea we have often considered on this blog – namely, that the universe ultimately consists of information and information processing, and that this informational content is constantly changing as part of a vast, interconnected system. Passing "from order to order" is actually a very precise and concise way of describing the visible changes in such a system – for instance, the constant change from one ordered pattern to another in the animated graphics on a computer screen that occurs every time the screen refreshes.

I would add that the "atoms or molecules, of which seemingly the universe is composed ... whether material or spiritual" could be interpreted as bits of data in this information processing system, which would be neither material nor spiritual, but would occupy some other ontological status as pure information; or, to make a related argument, they could be interpreted as Leibniz's monads (see Matt Rouge's guest post on that subject).

Of course, C.M.C. immediately links the above revelation to the following:

Universal life, synonymous with universal love!

The universal love is, perhaps, the attention bestowed by consciousness on the system, which brings it to life – breathing fire into the equations, to borrow the words of Stephen Hawking's famous question. Consciousness, in this view, observes and interacts with this system, perhaps by choosing a given pathway to actualize out of many possible alternatives. This is not to say that consciousness cannot love the objects of its attention; indeed, bringing a world to life out of cold, abstract algorithms could be seen as not only the ultimate act of creation but also the ultimate act of love. It is just possible that some intimation of this reality-actualizing power of consciousness underlies the consistent view of God across cultures as the creator of life and order, the generative principle that makes all things possible, and without which nothing could exist.



Naturally, I don't suggest that this interpretation is the only possible one, or necessarily the correct one. An experience as profound as C.M.C.'s can be viewed from a variety of perspectives.



COMMENTS:

Michael, This is yet another great post. A few personal notes; I used to use psychedelics to temporarily achieve pretty much exactly what is described in the excerpt. As time moves on and the decades flow by, I rarely touch the stuff, but find myself undergoing a deeper, more profound and permanent transformation of the same nature. .....Sure, I get caught up in work stress, politics and other attention and energy consuming aspects of life, but there seems to always be at least a few days every month when I just allow myself to let go and experience higher consciousness.

This started maybe a couple years ago and has intensified lately. At one point I actually questioned whether or not I was subconsciously informing myself that I was going to die soon. I even went so far as to get "my affairs in order" so as to ensure that my wife and others would be taken care of. Then I realized, that what was dying was the old me - and it is ok. The Fear is gone. And it's wonderful, delicious. I'm looking forward to retiring in a couple years so that a major distraction (work) is no longer there. I want to live this fully.

I think this is how the natural progression of one's life is supposed to be.

Anyhow, just thought I'd share that for what it's worth.

I am still hung up on the idea of "information" b/c I can't get past information as being soulless.

I also don't get the "love is everything" realization that many people seem to have. In my experiences I have gotten into a core of being (I think that's what it is) that is absolutely ecstatic. I can see how it could be said to be "love", but, for me at least, there are nuances that lean more toward it being ecstasy. Maybe I just get too hung up on words. However, I think in this case the difference can be important in that people tend to form larger belief systems around the feeling. The nuance becomes important.

I think there is a lot to the concept of kundalini. It should be studied more.

Posted by: Eric Newhill | December 28, 2017 at 01:34 PM


I think when mystics say the universe is all about love, they don’t mean that life on earth is a love fest. They mean that the world was lovingly designed to teach us the lessons we need to learn in order to grow spiritually.

After all, many mystics have endured poverty, persecution, and even torture, so they must know that life is not a bowl of cherries.

To me, it’s an open question whether the universe is designed to bring about a certain kind of spiritual evolution, or whether the universe itself is a work in progress, with the imperfections we would expect from an unfinished effort.

People who’ve had transcendent mystical experiences usually say that everything happens for a reason and is part of a perfect plan. But I don’t know if I trust their judgment. As Eric says, these experiences are often ecstatic, and conclusions reached in a state of ecstasy aren’t always reliable.

Posted by: Michael Prescott | December 30, 2017 at 11:49 AM


"As Eric says, these experiences are often ecstatic, and conclusions reached in a state of ecstasy aren’t always reliable." - MP

Right. It's like meeting someone, having great sex, and being so enamored that you propose marriage on the spot. It sure felt that way when you were lying in bed together, but then you find out that the two of you really are very much alike in many important ways and when you're not making love, you're always fighting.

I would add that such experiences are also not very practical for most people for most stages of their lives.

What good is it to be flying high in a mystical experience on Sunday and then on Monday you boss is freaking out because the CEO has an unfavorable profit report on his desk and needs to understand what is driving the loss and you're the guy who has to frantically crunch the numbers and have an accurate answer back by close of business on Wednesday?

The two states of mind - requiring an utterly different focus of attention - are entirely incompatible as far as I know and if you choose to stay w/ the mystical you will end up unemployed and living in the street, alone. There's a good reason why most mystics are scroungey hermits or people living in a socio-religious system set up to support the mystical lifestyle. In Hindu and Buddhist systems, one usually waits until after the "householder" phase is complete to delve into the mystical phase of one's life, if one is to have such a phase at all. Alternatively, if one is an artist (writer, musician, painter, etc) one could probably manage a livelihood while delving into the mystical, perhaps the mystical would even enhance one's art.

The reason is that the mystical experience shows us accessible bands of awareness (aka "reality") that are beyond those necessary for survival in the tooth and claw physical world, but we still live day to day in the tooth and claw. Note that I say "bands of awareness" and not "higher reality". The country music station on your radio is no more or less "real" than the classical or rock 'n roll station. It's just different. The real truth lies in the realization that you are an aware entity that can move freely from station to station, at will if adept. IMO, it is that sense of freedom that brings on the feelings of connectedness, ecstasy, love, etc. Not because you went to a "place" that is those things.

I know that there are new age types that believe we should use the mystical experience to transform the day to day life into something less brutal, but such people are merely dreamers, IMO. All it takes is a few barbarians that aren't buying into the transformation and all the love filled mystics end up like jesus and the world of men is back to they way it's always been.

Thus, the mystical experience remains impractical for this world beyond giving hope and serenity to those who are approaching the end of this cycle on this plane. For most of those fully immersed in the game there are many negatives associated with mystical realizations. Actually, IM, having such experiences is fraught with danger. One can become too passive about asserting oneself in this world and, as a result, lose out on important opportunities to develop through experience. Your mileage may differ.

Posted by: Eric Newhill | December 31, 2017 at 11:57 AM


Eric,
Excellent insight! Good comment. Becoming a mystic makes it more and more difficult to live in this world. Though I am not a mystic, I find myself more and more isolated from people and things in this world as I move closer and closer to a cosmic understanding. - AOD
Posted by: Amos Oliver Doyle | January 01, 2018 at 09:38 AM


"Bucke says he found no case of a person who experienced Cosmic Consciousness and became successful at making money"

Interesting and believable. Does the book contain analysis of various factors involved in mysticism and mystic personalities? If so, I think I might purchase it.

Amos, Thx. It's important to reiterate that what I say is my opinion based on personal observations and may not be universally valid. I think that someone like guitarist/poet Jimi Hendrix - IMO a true mystic who experienced cosmic awareness - can be materially successful and socially popular because of their mysticism in the right time and place. However, such people tend to die young and live tortured lives as they attempt to balance their visionary mindset w/ the demands of commercialization.

Posted by: Eric Newhill | January 01, 2018 at 12:49 PM


Bucke gives Jesus as a case of Cosmic Consciousness, citing various parables and other teachings. Of course, Jesus' message can be endlessly debated and interpreted, and no one knows which aphorisms are genuine and which were invented.

Personally I think the more "mystical" aspects of the Jesus story (the stuff known, technically, as "high christology") were added well after the fact. The relatively late Gospel of John offers a more mystical Jesus than the Synoptic Gospels, and later movements like Christian Gnosticism go even further. This trend could be related to the increasing irrelevance of Jesus' original message, which may have been that Israel would soon be liberated from Roman rule. Not only did this prophecy fail to come true, but later Christians, being mostly gentiles, weren’t too interested in restoring the Kingdom of David anyway. And distancing Jesus from earthly politics by making his focus otherworldly was a smart strategy for reducing the risk of persecution by Roman authorities, who didn’t care about esoteric doctrines but did care about anti-government insurrectionism.

Posted by: Michael Prescott | January 02, 2018 at 10:20 PM
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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby PufPuf93 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:05 pm

minime » Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:06 pm wrote:
PufPuf93 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:53 pm wrote:


Start with Nature.

Be still, don't strain.

Movement is ubiquitous.

You don't need to use your eyes.


How can you do otherwise, as there is only nature.

How can you be still when movement is ubiquitous.

I beg your pardon, Master Po. But my eyes see ultraviolet and infrared, my third eye is calcified, and I need all the help I can get.


By Nature I refer to the world apart from humanity.

Perhaps being still is to be self-conscious and be a reference point.

I suggest Nature to start because I find one more readily senses omnipresent perturbations in a tree or a stream or a fish or a rock than concrete or steel or groceries or cell phone.

This is one way I can describe my consciousness.

I don't think conciousness is that complicated or hard, just seemingly different for each individidual and we tend to be socialized away from the self.
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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby minime » Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:41 pm

PufPuf93 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:05 pm wrote:By Nature I refer to the world apart from humanity.

Perhaps being still is to be self-conscious and be a reference point.

I suggest Nature to start because I find one more readily senses omnipresent perturbations in a tree or a stream or a fish or a rock than concrete or steel or groceries or cell phone.

This is one way I can describe my consciousness.

I don't think conciousness is that complicated or hard, just seemingly different for each individidual and we tend to be socialized away from the self.


How can there be nature apart from humanity?

How can you shut out the omnipresent perturbations of groceries? Nothing is more resonant than steel. Can you hear it?

If consciousness is not complicated or hard, then say what it is.
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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby PufPuf93 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:05 pm

minime » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:41 pm wrote:
PufPuf93 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:05 pm wrote:By Nature I refer to the world apart from humanity.

Perhaps being still is to be self-conscious and be a reference point.

I suggest Nature to start because I find one more readily senses omnipresent perturbations in a tree or a stream or a fish or a rock than concrete or steel or groceries or cell phone.

This is one way I can describe my consciousness.

I don't think conciousness is that complicated or hard, just seemingly different for each individidual and we tend to be socialized away from the self.


How can there be nature apart from humanity?

How can you shut out the omnipresent perturbations of groceries? Nothing is more resonant than steel. Can you hear it?

If consciousness is not complicated or hard, then say what it is.


Humanity emerged from Nature and is but a small blip in infinity.

Who shut out anything? My suggestion is to start with Nature. Suit yourself. Be contrary. Do it your own way.

Consciousness is consciousness. A circular question without a complete answer.
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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby Elvis » Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:22 pm

What good is it to be flying high in a mystical experience on Sunday and then on Monday you boss is freaking out because the CEO has an unfavorable profit report on his desk and needs to understand what is driving the loss and you're the guy who has to frantically crunch the numbers and have an accurate answer back by close of business on Wednesday?


For one, you might go in Monday morning and realize that you're wasting your life crunching profit/loss numbers for frantic CEOs?


PufPuf93 wrote:By Nature I refer to the world apart from humanity.


But are not human beings inseparable from Nature?

The notion that humans are separate from everything around them is the seed of technocracy, where Nature is the enemy to be defeated, re-ordered, and, when convenient, destroyed.

Ecology should probably be first among the fields of science, but understanding and embracing the Earth's ecology is bad for profits and "growth," so it languishes in comparison to research that spawn weapons, mountaintop removals, surveillance and other means of social control, etc.

Just some random thoughts.
“The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.” ― Joan Robinson
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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby Burnt Hill » Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:25 pm

A new digital magazine forces you to unplug from the internet

https://www.cjr.org/innovations/disconnect-magazine-only-works-offline.php

“The theme of this issue is straightforward: humans and our technology,” Bolin writes. “Every piece in this issue describes an encounter with technology, whether it’s intentional or inconsequential, constructive or devastating. You’ll find a poem about a conflicted hunger for silence, a tale of monetizing the dead, and an exposition of the future of digital divides.”
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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby Blue » Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:47 pm

By Nature I refer to the world apart from humanity.

Perhaps being still is to be self-conscious and be a reference point.

I suggest Nature to start because I find one more readily senses omnipresent perturbations in a tree or a stream or a fish or a rock than concrete or steel or groceries or cell phone.

This is one way I can describe my consciousness.

I don't think conciousness is that complicated or hard, just seemingly different for each individidual and we tend to be socialized away from the self.


Said PufPuf93. I agree with what you're saying here and it comes from living long enough and through enough to describe it.
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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby minime » Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:58 pm

Two hanged men hanging from the Tree...

Anyone?

Hello?
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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby Sounder » Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:41 am

Fascism is an inherent feature of a technocratic model.

Models create correspondences between categories. Models that create more connections and correspondences will be ‘better’ or more robust. Most people think that current modeling provides plenty of correspondences, but we are living in a fishbowl and there are infinitely more correspondences yet to be established.

Our current mode of relating to reality depends on appeals to the ‘voices of authority’. This produces a vertical authority distribution system whereby (pretty much) everyone becomes habituated to responding to external inputs (through passive emotions), rather than using internally generated thoughts, feelings (active emotions) to try and find the proper response to any given situation.

A horizontal authority distribution system might be the happy result of the general population, realizing through the application of more accurate criteria for understanding that they can in fact ‘think for themselves’.
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby minime » Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:21 am

Sounder » Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:41 am wrote:Fascism is an inherent feature of a technocratic model.

Models create correspondences between categories. Models that create more connections and correspondences will be ‘better’ or more robust. Most people think that current modeling provides plenty of correspondences, but we are living in a fishbowl and there are infinitely more correspondences yet to be established.

Our current mode of relating to reality depends on appeals to the ‘voices of authority’. This produces a vertical authority distribution system whereby (pretty much) everyone becomes habituated to responding to external inputs (through passive emotions), rather than using internally generated thoughts, feelings (active emotions) to try and find the proper response to any given situation.

A horizontal authority distribution system might be the happy result of the general population, realizing through the application of more accurate criteria for understanding that they can in fact ‘think for themselves’.


Channeling Lao Tsu, Jaynes, Naisbitt and of course many others.

Tell us more about "correspondences between categories".
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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby thrulookingglass » Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:41 pm

Superiority is hell's throne.
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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby DrEvil » Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:58 pm

Sounder » Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:41 pm wrote:Fascism is an inherent feature of a technocratic model.


Good thing we're not living in a technocracy then.

Models create correspondences between categories. Models that create more connections and correspondences will be ‘better’ or more robust. Most people think that current modeling provides plenty of correspondences, but we are living in a fishbowl and there are infinitely more correspondences yet to be established.


You could also argue that more connections create complexity, which in turn creates instability. The simplest systems are often the most robust.

Our current mode of relating to reality depends on appeals to the ‘voices of authority’. This produces a vertical authority distribution system whereby (pretty much) everyone becomes habituated to responding to external inputs (through passive emotions), rather than using internally generated thoughts, feelings (active emotions) to try and find the proper response to any given situation.


We live in a society where no one can be an expert or even remotely competent in everything. Most people don't even have a complete grasp of their own field of expertise. Fragmentation of knowledge makes delegation necessary. We often aren't equipped with the knowledge to even know what a proper response to a situation should look like.

"Voices of authority" as you call them are simply people we give certain jobs because most of us can't or won't do them ourselves (whether we give the right people those jobs is a whole other discussion).

A horizontal authority distribution system might be the happy result of the general population, realizing through the application of more accurate criteria for understanding that they can in fact ‘think for themselves’.


So you're an anarchist?
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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby PufPuf93 » Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:02 pm

Elvis » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:22 pm wrote:
What good is it to be flying high in a mystical experience on Sunday and then on Monday you boss is freaking out because the CEO has an unfavorable profit report on his desk and needs to understand what is driving the loss and you're the guy who has to frantically crunch the numbers and have an accurate answer back by close of business on Wednesday?


For one, you might go in Monday morning and realize that you're wasting your life crunching profit/loss numbers for frantic CEOs?


PufPuf93 wrote:By Nature I refer to the world apart from humanity.


But are not human beings inseparable from Nature?

The notion that humans are separate from everything around them is the seed of technocracy, where Nature is the enemy to be defeated, re-ordered, and, when convenient, destroyed.

Ecology should probably be first among the fields of science, but understanding and embracing the Earth's ecology is bad for profits and "growth," so it languishes in comparison to research that spawn weapons, mountaintop removals, surveillance and other means of social control, etc.

Just some random thoughts.


Agree that humanity cannot be separated from Nature and the idea of humanities dominion over Nature, especially what has occurred globally from the Industrial Revolution, has fouled our own habitat.

A changed concept of ecological economics is now necessary to reduce horrors and lesser impacts from the fossil fuel extravaganza.

I meant to suggest Nature as a starting point of settling consciousness as an individual prior to the technologically flooded human dominated enevironment.

Pretty much agree with your statement on ecology Elvis.
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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby Elvis » Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:23 pm

PufPuf93 wrote:Agree that humanity cannot be separated from Nature and the idea of humanities dominion over Nature, especially what has occurred globally from the Industrial Revolution, has fouled our own habitat.

A changed concept of ecological economics is now necessary to reduce horrors and lesser impacts from the fossil fuel extravaganza.

Yes, we agree. I just bristle when I hear that humans and nature are separate things. That said, I think consciousness probably exists outside of the natural environment as we know and experience it.


PufPuf93 wrote:I meant to suggest Nature as a starting point of settling consciousness as an individual prior to the technologically flooded human dominated enevironment.

Cool, I think there's an app for that! :rofl2



DrEvil wrote:Good thing we're not living in a technocracy

I was about to dispute this when I remembered that the current, everyday meaning of technocracy is "government by technocrats" who make decisions based on (ideally) rational analysis, as opposed to partisan politics, theocratic dogma, etc. There was an official Technocracy™ movement in America in the mid-20th century, whose basically laudable aim was to use science & technology to feed and shelter people, improve lives, promote equality and so on. It didn't catch on. Nowadays, we see e.g. in Greece, "technocrats" assigned to carry out austerity (i.e. legal robbery) programs, the dreaded "regime of experts."


I'd say a technocracy is more than that: it's a whole worldview, that sees every "system" as a machine; in its worst expression, a human being becomes nothing more than a collection of atoms. One researcher explained that when they experiment on a dog, and the dog howls in pain, the dog is not really feeling any pain, but rather, the screams and howls are just a biological mechanism automatically reacting to stimuli. Now sure, there are some people who just like to torture animals, but it's the technocratic mindset that allows such a twisted explanation to even be published. For some, it may help relieve their guilt associated with hurting test animals. But then, what are "guilty feelings"?—tut tut, like all "feelings," they're ultimately nothing more than chemical reactions in the body. Get over it (and get back to work!).

In this same way technocracy regards people in a society as cogs in a machine—a tired expression in ways, but completely apt—and if a cog breaks or isn't meshing efficiently with the rest of the machine, it gets "repaired" or discarded. There's no reason for the cog to exist for its own sake. The important thing is that the System Works—as its designers intended. To work with the greatest efficiency, the System needs to know everything and it gets periodic "upgrades" to improve performance. It has a single goal: to perfect itself.


This broader definition of technocracy isn't my own, and I struggle to explain it well. As I have many times before, for the best grasp of it, I highly recommend two books by Theodore Roszak—from 1969, The Making of a Counter Culture (it's not a history of the 1960s counterculture), and from 1972, Where the Wasteland Ends.

I don't agree with all of Roszak's views, but in both books, page after page, revelations abound.



Q: What does all that have to do with consciousness?

A: For us, as inhabitants of this planet, everything.
“The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.” ― Joan Robinson
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Re: Questioning Consciousness

Postby minime » Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:05 pm

"Yes, we agree. I just bristle when I hear that humans and nature are separate things. That said, I think consciousness probably exists outside of the natural environment as we know and experience it."

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