Alien Abductions and the Monarch Project

[LilyPatToo]

I'm not Onesmartrat. She lives a couple of states away and is younger than I am and grew up here in the Bay Area, where I now live. I'm from Pennsylvania, originally. No sockpuppeting going on that I know of within the MC program survivor community and certainly none on my part. Ever. I post under LilyPat and under my own name and my writing style is, I'm told, pretty easily identifiable. As is OSR's. That dog won't hunt, CC.

And I was referring to Dr. Boyland visiting the group to which I belonged, not to you.

Now, red herrings dealt with, I'd like to address what I see as the main misunderstanding between us. No matter how many times I say clearly and candidly that I do not believe that all alien abductions are perpetrated by humans, you (and a number of other people) seem not to hear that. I can repeat it, put it in all-caps, underline it and it's STILL ignored in favor of attacking me.

Even if 95% of the thousands of abductees you speak of truly were abducted by non-humans, that leaves one HECK of a lot of people who are being preyed upon by human intelligence agencies. Why on Earth do you feel so defensive about my trying to reach THOSE PEOPLE?

Why do you insist that I'm "explaining away" YOUR experience, if your experience is indeed alien-instigated?

If you're certain that you're an alien abductee, then my trying to reach people who are not shouldn't bother you at all, should it?

But it does.

And when I post to a thread specifically titled "Alien abductions and the Monarch Project", why does that upset you? Ditto for my posting to threads that are focused upon just the mind control programs themselves--why do you take it upon yourself to come and post your problems with me personally? I'm not posting there for your benefit.

Let me repeat that--my posts are directed at the mind control survivors who currently are being jerked around by disinformation specialists and told they're alien abductees. Secondarily, I post for people who are curious about that subject.

I don't see you in either of those groups, so why the heck are you so hostile?

Why does the discussion of that small subset's experiences incense you so? Why do you personalize it? I'm genuinely curious, since you're not the only one who reacts this way and there has to be a reason.

LilyPat

[LilyPatToo]

Wombaticus, a woman using the handle Onesmartrat posted in August of 2004 to a thread on the Unknown Country message board about agents of covert US mind control programs using alien abduction to cover their experimentation on non-consensual human subjects.

I'd originally come to that board earlier, looking for other abductees who had had the kind of abductions that I had undergone, rather than positive, uplifting ones. Even though I was mostly unsuccessful at that, I stuck around because I love Whitley Strieber's writing and had come to admire him and because I really liked many of the folks at that board--still do.

But when OSR showed up, she was able to answer ALL my questions about ALL the bizarre things that had happened to me. And since I'd never mentioned most of them publically at all, I knew that she wasn't playing games with me....she KNEW what she was talking about, down to very unusual/unlikely details.

A flame war erupted, but I stuck it out and, after she got banned, I kept that thread with her new-to-me information alive (that board's software deletes any thread that isn't posted to). And a few other people who had finally found out what the hell had happened to them also stuck around, researched and went on posting about our experiences suggestive of mind control program involvement, rather than of alien abduction.

And some of us have both alien and human-instigated abductions in our history, too. Since this field has an appalling number of disinformationists targetting it, we get continuous harrassment both from them and from some alien abductees too, unfortunately.

LilyPat

[Donovan]

LillypatToo,
One of the best quotes on leadership I ever heard was from President Eisenhower: “…You can’t push a string, you can only pull it.”

I am taking some time here because I am strongly identifying with your attitudes here. As I am identifying with many of your ‘takes’ on the issues. For example, anyone having these experiences and not considering the Stockholm Syndrome, (and even more not understanding that it MUST be a factor), is not worth bothering with. They are at the back of the string. They will catch up.

Here is a small quote of yours from above that I am picking up on: “…And that bothers me a lot, in the light of what I've learned about some of the predators doing disinformation work in this field….” (unquote) Now that was specific to those who “make captors their gods’, but I am speaking more to the general. “..that bothers me a lot…”.

The first thing to keep in mind is that even though neither of us have the entire picture, the whole truth…, still truth itself is on our side and we are on the winning side. In the turmoil, or focusing on the sleaze out there, this is hard to remember.

I love also the quote from Ghandi: “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.”

In general the real ‘leadership’ in the area now recognizes that there are both real and military abductions (for want of better terms) and that this consensus was not the case just a few years ago. Progress.

Anyone in your position needs good information and some support of other good people who ‘have been there’. I am glad that I did that for myself. And a good number of those friends (many made on Internet) I maintain. But I also found, looking back, that I had to pull myself out of the ‘exposing them’ or getting back out of some sense of ‘justice’. Mainly because it was a waste of energy and diluted my personal power. I had to give up letting that ‘bother me a lot’.

Anyone having had mind control or other ops done on them by ‘secret government’ must go through stages. Anyone not feeling raped and having massive anger would be inhuman. It is the process from there. In that a part is ‘friendship stepping’. Often friends that helped at the start begin to pull you back…, particularly in the state where it feels good to play ‘ain’t it awful’. For me that was the final and biggest trap.

I have certainly not withdrawn from the fray. For example my note to Gorby and letter to the French ambassador posted a few days ago: I know that had few readers. But I also know that it was not ignored. There was a defensive editorial on Chirac (?spelling) yet again today in the New York Times. Here is where I saw an opening. Knew many would not follow but did not focus on that. I made my post, a good left hook, with a sense of fun, not retribution. I was also more able to see their concerns. That is a sense of health in the situation to be won, when you can finally see how one can be caught up into being a ‘perp’. That allows you also to better address them, and more importantly those around them.

All military action boils down to two basic principles: 1- that you can only assault or maneuver, and 2- that the rule is always to send strong to weak, never weak to strong. Retreat is a basic maneuver. Over the years many that have had problems with government ops have contacted me. I have stressed that it is important to be safe and happy (for only from that position can you well fight). Very few are ready to hear that. Most need a period of validation first. I tell them to go to the Mind Control Forum and get on some groups knowing they are not yet ready to take the step of being safe and happy. And that a good portion (sadly) never will. But then a string must have an end as well as a beginning.

I have never seen the movie Zorro. But I had a friend explain to me a scene where Zorro is being coached by his mentor. The mentor explains to Zorro that he has a ‘circle of influence’ around him and not to bother fighting anything not in his circle of influence. (But that also knowing the boundaries of that ‘circle’ requires practice and wisdom.)

[Cosmic Cowbell]

I'm not Onesmartrat. She lives a couple of states away and is younger than I am and grew up here in the Bay Area, where I now live. I'm from Pennsylvania, originally. No sockpuppeting going on that I know of within the MC program survivor community and certainly none on my part. Ever. I post under LilyPat and under my own name and my writing style is, I'm told, pretty easily identifiable. As is OSR's. That dog won't hunt, CC.

If you say so Lilypat.....it's not worth pursuing. But hey, since OSR joined up a few weeks ago, maybe she'll grace us with her presence and speak for herself.

Now, red herrings dealt with, I'd like to address what I see as the main misunderstanding between us. No matter how many times I say clearly and candidly that I do not believe that all alien abductions are perpetrated by humans, you (and a number of other people) seem not to hear that. I can repeat it, put it in all-caps, underline it and it's STILL ignored in favor of attacking me.

Then we are in agreement. It would have been nice for you to say so in your first post in the thread rather than on page 8. Instead, you endorse OSR's essay as it stood, and it is she who tries to 'educate' us otherwise. Maybe you'll get her to come around. I'm sorry if you felt I was attacking you. I suppose I get a little defensive when someone attempts to frame me as something I'm not. My views and experiences are my own, and when I am characterized as being another 'victim' by a 'victim', a deluded messiah or somehow according to them, unable to discern my own reality because of their experience, well, you see what happens. You don't know me at all.

Even if 95% of the thousands of abductees you speak of truly were abducted by non-humans, that leaves one HECK of a lot of people who are being preyed upon by human intelligence agencies. Why on Earth do you feel so defensive about my trying to reach THOSE PEOPLE?

Why do you insist that I'm "explaining away" YOUR experience, if your experience is indeed alien-instigated?

If you're certain that you're an alien abductee, then my trying to reach people who are not shouldn't bother you at all, should it?

But it does.

It isn't about YOU LilyPat. As Jeff said, it's the disservice done...and I don't believe you are qualified to be the judge of someone else's experience, especially over the internet. Just my opinion though...

And when I post to a thread specifically titled "Alien abductions and the Monarch Project", why does that upset you? Ditto for my posting to threads that are focused upon just the mind control programs themselves--why do you take it upon yourself to come and post your problems with me personally? I'm not posting there for your benefit.

If I've intruded upon you elsewhere here at RI, I apologize. If you could be so kind as to show where I've done that, I would appreciate it. I may need to self reflect....

I don't see you in either of those groups, so why the heck are you so hostile?

Why does the discussion of that small subset's experiences incense you so? Why do you personalize it? I'm genuinely curious, since you're not the only one who reacts this way and there has to be a reason.

Again with the mis characterizations...I am "hostile" and "incensed". I suggest you go back and read your last couple of post to me. You get what you give sometimes, for the reasons stated above.

I've made my salient points in my post, feel free to review...thanks.

For example, anyone having these experiences and not considering the Stockholm Syndrome, (and even more not understanding that it MUST be a factor), is not worth bothering with. They are at the back of the string. They will catch up.

Sheesh, you guys don't give anybody any credit do you. It's exactly this kind of 'superiority' complex that pisses me off.

YOU DO NOT KNOW ME.

[soulsurvivor]

you can register as a member here:
http://Hraunfjord.org/whatreallyhappened/index.php

to read this:
http://Hraunfjord.org/whatreallyhappene ... e&start=25

[Joe Hillshoist]

Lily what do you think of whitley S. You to CC. Do you think he has an agenda? Well everyone has an agenda, do you think his is spooky?

His book Unholy Fire is a very interesting read.

It is also a few years ahead of the real media shitstorm over abuse in the catholic church

lily, I think tyhe connection between mind control and ufos and drugs and shamanism is far stronger than some people credit.

One of the most important things in magical and indigenous religious and medical traditions is that the mind cointrol is what the practitioner does to their own mind first, often to their society second. Tho this may be a benign process that the members of society actually choose.

often all members are trained in their own mind control, by thew whole community, or those qualified.

In some sense the process is akin to their whole life being an intiiation and training to be elders, the ones who carry and know their culture.

Its not always a negative thing, tho I see many parallels in this process with projects like MKU which obviously is. And in some ways I can see that the process has been willfully applied to society to create a starship trooper culture. You can trace the satire of that idea back to harry Harrison who was not stupid, and to others.

I see alot of the alien abduction pov as a control mechanism. One thast is applied directly to our culture in the west oif the west, (or is the worst of the west...)

i guess I consider myself a possible contactee by my own definition, but I don't believe that. It is a good model for the experience tho and creates a way to interact with the world. This world. I have probably planted well too many to count, hundreds of thousands, possibly millions of trees over the years, I have done a lot of years of tree planting, regen and rainforest/native nyrsery work, etc etc. Organic local food prod'n etc etc etc

I don't think that has anything to do with my extra ordinary experiences.

The contactee ones occur on shrooms under specific set and settings, but are phenomenally weird, and familiar.

They are also more about joy riding through hyperspace with some pretty weird critters, (actually more like Lovecraft's violet gas), and learning stuff than about messianic messages of llub tihs.

Thats prolly off track for this thread, but the important part is that there is a sense of friendship community and connection, and without that these experiences mean nothing.

Its also weird to think of the contactor as a friend somewhere else doing something else. the same as my human friends. And so every now and then I think about it, and wonder what its up to. the way I do about others.

I know there is at least a 95% percent probability of this experience being pure invention on my part. but then every now and then whren I look skywards, I wonder... whats ole matey up to? Then think WTF???

The only abduction experience I had was something I was able to gain control of.

Thats why I wonder about it being used as a form of control mechanism.

Its bad enough coming up against bigger stronger better fighters with weapons, re being powerless. But you still have one choice. You can fight and keep fighting till they have to stop you or you win. Its still your choice tho.

[Joe Hillshoist]

Alien abduction is always framed in such terms of powerlessness: "You have no ability to stop this." "We have every right to do this and will." "We are in control not you" etc etc There seems no way to fight back.

If you can't see the usefulness of a mindset to a control freak fascist then you are willfully blind IMO. (I think you already know this lilyPat)

Eventually kids grow big enough to physically fight back.

I can see why some people might finds faking alien abduction useful, or even inducing, controling and perverting the intent of the psychic process involved in initiation that bear, at least on the surface, a resemblance to some aspects of abduction.

Courage and ability to bear pain and still move forward are important parts of initiation as well. In tribal communities they are requirements for adulthood.

Without the specific training and preperation and motivation and care and respect initiation is just a series of pointless of ordeals that leave the person traumatised. If done right they can make adults of children. In our culture people are still children in their 40s and 50s.

Social control is easier with children who are of adult age.

here's a couplt of HMW moments:

There is a connection betwen movies, and what a society thinks. Aliens who abduct you are as close to all powerful as a non religious mind might be prepared to accept.

We live in a non religious culture. the whole 90s was a plethora of alien abdsuction rubbish, the culture was swaddled in it.

Then along came independance day, the movie.

Classic image of an alien abductor. Us pres who looks a little like dubya probably imagines himself to look. Leads the fight to save the earth. Powerful images of US and other famous icons being destroyed foolowed by a triumphal president on a carrier? at least on a tarmac.

Sept 11 happens and the wtc dissappears in a manner similar to the white house in the movie, mentioned above, suddenly the evil arab meme merges with the alien meme to become the inhuman enemy meme, and society's mythology undergoes an Orwellian shift. But also a return to 80s stereotypes of evil arabs... Hollywood has implanted that meme.

An all powerful president declares victory in a flight jacket after vanquishing the aliens then an idiot wannabe does the same on an aircraft carrier a few years later.

I just wonder if that fanciful series of connections, could somehow be linked to what was learned through most of these programs that some of us know about and some of us speculate about.

Learning about powerlessness and protection.

Its not quite Stockholm Syndrome, but it might be close. In the sense that any leadership could be considered a form of Stockholm Syndrome.

The other one is Starship Troopers:

It amazed me that I read a comment by a poster here that most p[eople in the US seemed unaware that movie was Satire. Maybe I misread that, but I don't think so.

I posted these lyrics here once before, I hope that in 20 years or so they are considered among the best anti war songs of all time.

Starship Trooper by ozi battla

Lost in deep cover,
“Dear John,” said his lover’s last letter
Emptied a full clip to feel better,
Slipped a rung on Jacob's ladder,
Desert boot camp deserter got stung by death adder,

Don’t get mad get even madder,
A10 tank killer fodder,
Interrogate? Why bother…
My brother for a last cigarette, no please not yet
One last dance, lest we regret

Look me in the eye, GI, and tell me you’re not tired,
Tired to death sir, tired till it hurts
Now this shit couldn’t get much worse

Well it may…

We march at the break of day
And come what may, rules of engagement say
We will stand to the very last, shrapnel blast

A casket goes home….
Sons and daughters wrapped in stars and stripes to keep ‘em warm
(background voice “Give peace a chance…that doesn’t mean anything”
“It’s like give peace a chance”)

Under red orange dawn we draw the line
And those on the other side must stand and fight
Tracers like fourth of July in the night
Lighting up like Hiroshima…
The perfect sight

**** CHORUS******
I’m a Starship Trooper
This is my letter to dad, transferred from Saigon to Baghdad
And now I’m dead…
An allied soldier, with skin boils from Ebola
I’ll bring you back a souvenir of what we stole
Repeat

I was only nineteen
Joined for the pay packet
Now my full metal jacket won’t take one more hit
I don’t give two shits about oil interests
But depleted uranium, just gave Joe a fit

Captain Kurtz said, “fight till the hurt stops“
Yet all I can see is burned crops
And mates shell-shocked
Morphine under lock and key
Their AK’s talking to my M16

Pray for friendly fire
Haven’t seen a priest, but plenty of funeral pyres
Triage nurse is dying
My name in the paper
Next to a faceless dictator
And another flag to drape
Hey yo, check

Here’s the commanding officer
A total mess again
Crying in the mess tent
How to make mice or mince meat of his men….

****CHORUS*****

Repeat

I’m a Starship Trooper
This is my letter to dad
Transferred from Saigon to Baghdad
And now I’m dead
An allied soldier…………………..

Send it down Hughie

[Attack Ships on Fire]

I'd originally come to that board earlier, looking for other abductees who had had the kind of abductions that I had undergone, rather than positive, uplifting ones. Even though I was mostly unsuccessful at that, I stuck around because I love Whitley Strieber's writing and had come to admire him and because I really liked many of the folks at that board--still do.

Hey Lily, a quick question for you concerning Streiber: do you think he's playing games with his readership and those abductees looking for answers? I've read his books and I'm more towards the opinion that he's playing mind games with himself or with his audience. Whether it's intentional or not is open for debate.

Specifically I'm talking about a passage in one of his later books where he describes an encounter that took place in his cabin. I remember him being awoken in the middle of the night, walking down to his office and taking one of his pet cats with him to see how it reacted to the experience of meeting these supposed ETs. I'm trying my best to recall specifics, but if I remember correctly in his office was a Gray-like creature, a human and something else. There they rendered the cat unconscious because it was upset and then they spilled some kind of secret, or secrets, to Streiber that he then told the reader he could not reveal at this time.

This is the point that I had my "What the hell?" moment about Streiber and his motives.

Here's a guy that is selling books trying to fathom out what his strange experiences are, whether they are with extraterrestrials, ultraterrestrials or figments of imagination, being open about what the journey is for him, and now he's apparently got some kind of superior knowledge about who these beings are and he's withholding it from his readership?

I'm interested in hearing what are your thoughts on that...

[ivanbo2003]

A nice article about the deceptive nature of UFO phenomena.
Be it demons in disguise ,humans with nefarious agenda or just mean little "green" man,the aftermath is similar and the consequences for the abducted are bad.
http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/prediction/51/text-files/abduct.txt

"Alien Abductions in the Gingerbread House"

by Dr. Karla Turner.

World renowned UFO researcher Jacques Vallee has repeatedly referred to the
similarities between UFO and abduction reports and the stories of folklore
and fairy tales. I disagree with Dr. Vallee on many, many points of UFOlogy,
but here I will grant that there is one fairy tale which does have something
important to tell us about the alien abduction phenomenon. It is not,
however, what Dr. Vallee might think.

The story of Hansel and Gretel presents a lesson that every abductee should
heed. These innocent children, wandering lost and frightened in the forest,
came upon a gingerbread house that seemed to offer them shelter and
sustenance. The owner of the house, a wizened old woman, was frightening to
them at first, but their hunger pushed the children to accept her offer to
come inside and be fed.

And so they entered the gingerbread house and promptly became the old
woman's captives. Kept in cages, the two children were abundantly fed. It
was not for their benefit, though. In fact, they were being fattened up for
the oven! The deceptive nature of the gingerbread house and of the old
woman's offer of food worked quite well.

It is the deceptive quality of this story that holds a warning for humans
who are abducted by aliens. Like Hansel and Gretel, we are initially
terrified by our encounter with aliens, but in too many cases, our fear is
overcome by the words of our abductors and by the thoughts and experiences
they present to us.

I, too, am an abductee, and my quest to discover the nature of my own
experiences led me into abduction research over the past four years. Working
with many other abduction cases, I have learned just how basic the deception
of alien actions can be.

My family and I also delved into our own experiences, both past and present.
Barbara Bartholic, a dedicated UFO investigator from Tulsa, Oklahoma, worked
closely with us and helped us fill in the gaps in our recollections of
strange encounters through hypnotic regression. Ms. Bartholic, by the way,
began her own research as an assistant to Jacques Vallee in cattle
mutilation investigations, so her expertise in ufology is wide-ranging. I
have recently written a book, Into the Fringe, about the startling and often
disturbing results of our personal investigations, and it will be published
by the Berkley Publishing Group in November 1992.

But my interest soon expanded past the merely personal, and for the past
several years I have worked as Ms. Bartholic's research associate, exploring
literally hundreds of sighting and encounter cases with her. And what I've
learned through this work has raised far more questions than answers. In
fact, it has taught me to be wary of those researchers who do claim to have
answers. I have yet to hear of a single theory or explanation that accounts
for all of the data.

Some researchers have pointed out patterns of events in the abduction
experience, such as the physical examination, the taking of sperm and ova,
and the later presentation of a hybrid baby to the abductee. Other patterns
include the training of the abductee in some way and the delivery of a
warning of some upcoming global disaster. Yes, these events are frequently
reported, as one researcher has said in boringly repetitious accounts, and
it is tempting to think that the explanation for alien abductions may lie in
these patterns.

So the researchers announce that the problem is solved. The aliens are doing
cross-breeding experiments, UFOlogists tell us. Never mind the overwhelming
evidence against the viable commingling of different species. Or, we are
told, the aliens are here to save us from destroying ourselves and our
planet through violence, drug use, epidemic disease, pollution, and resource
depletion. Never mind that these problems have grown worse, not better,
since the ETs began visiting us.
...
more on the link

[Donovan]

First, this thread is progressing and much good stuff is just starting to come out.
That said a few points to clear up:
I wrote Cowbell a personal apology. I was not referring to her in regard to Stockholm Syndrome. In fact if anyone could be accused of that it would be me.
When I wrote to LilyPat it was as one person having bad experiences with secret government to another. And it that respect can see how it would be hard for Joe to put into perspective (as I understand the experience he has posted.). Others have had other experiences, some really awful, both ‘out there’ and with 3-D secret government and hard to process these, get through them. That was the level in which I was addressing LilyPat.

But Joe has given us some great insights here. Yes we ALL suffer from Stockholm Syndrome. We ALL have given our power away to ‘governments’. Notice that it is the nuclear club that most messes with the UFO concepts. These cover-ups do not happen in Third World countries anywhere near the extent as the nuclear club. They fear it, why?

The West is in the process of accepting other reality fields. That is one overall theme.
Within that theme come ETs, elves, sylphs, Grays, angels, ‘higher selves’, ‘selves on different timelines’, psi, government interference, the whole ball of new realities. I believe that is why it continues to be steps beyond our thinking, expanding us.

So I have my questions. Why was the biggest abduction on record, and entire New Zealand regiment, pointing to a giant double-cross in our history: Hill 60, Silva Bay, Galipoli 1915? Are they still pointing?

But let us start by accepting each other’s experiences for what they are.

Joe has another good point about movies and memes. Barbara Marchiniak stated some time ago in her first book, Bringers of the Dawn, that some movies are pure control, others giant information slips through. So my personal run down on that:

Independence Day and Signs: pure propoganda, ET as enemy. Carol Rosen’s quoting of Warner Von Braun. “Fist they will use the Cold War. When that no longer works they will use the terrorist threat. When that no longer works they will use the last card, the very last card, the ‘alien threat’.” They are starting to play the last card.

Contact: Wow. Could not believe it. My device, never built, was causing all kinds of things in the Dept of Commerce, see www.midcoast.com/~michael1 Designs for generators. That was 1995. In 1997 Contact comes out. The overall structure is the same. Stated, hidden in 3-D. The ‘industrialist in the sky’ is named Hadden. Bruce Hadden was Luce’s original partner. I almost fell out of my seat. Don’t understand this as I certainly don’t trust Sagan. What is going on?

Star Man. What does he do? Out of nowhere he states he makes maps, draws one. At end he produces some balls and it starts to snow. More than shades of Keppler some 400 years ago, ‘New Year Reflections On The Six Cornered Snowfake.’. The, so there is no mistake, he gives the girls some balls !!!! What?

Close Encounters: The music, use of the signs Zoltan somethingorother developed to teach music. Cartographer. (all that seemed not only well researched but ‘ahead’. ????) Opening scene of Lawrence.

Joe’s ‘imagination’. Is that what government fears? I think so.
Thread getting better.

[LilyPatToo]

The thread IS getting better And if CC's seemingly impenetrable ire and my earnest responses to it helped...well then, I guess they were worth it. But I now fully get why it was that Martin Cannon chose to simply leave the field of battle after he wrote his paradigm-shattering book "The Controllers". He was attacked in dangerous and subtle ways by the intelligence community and in astonishingly vicious and persistent ways by the alien abductee community. And now, after trying to get a similar message out on multiple boards, I truly know how he felt. Poor guy.

There were so many perceptive posts made here after I threw up my hands, gave up and went off to bed last night that I hardly know which to address first...so this may be a mish-mash, but bear with me. I think I'll attempt to answer Donovan's posts first. They're such meaty ones that it may take me more than one post to get to some of the others.

Donovan, I've not had much time to read this board lately (and the "CPU quota exceeded" messages have made keeping up almost impossible), meaning that I knew next to nothing about you or your experiences, so thank you for giving me some background. And the Eisenhower quote about the string was *priceless*--thank you!

As was the part about our being on the winning side--I want so much to believe that. I want accuracy/honesty/reason/sanity and compassion to triumph despite all the generally confused voices raised in furious opposition. But lately I'd begun to doubt that was possible. Thank you for the encouragement.

You're correct about validation and retribution--I still dream of them. I still want one of the men who were doing MKULTRA work in western PA in the 50's-60's to decide to come clean before they die and 'fess up. I want ANSWERS--to know why my son and I were apparently exposed to a lot of radiation and why so many pregnancies I had were taken and why my right ovary was badly scarred from too many ovum extractions. I've figured out the porn and prostitution stuff, but I still find the apparent genetic stuff mystifying.

There was a great thread on Unknown Country about the many ways that men interested in running the world have had significant input into both conventional religions and the New Age/Human Potential Movement and the UFO/alien abduction communities. How I wish I'd archived it! It opened my eyes to how deadly serious the Bad Guys are about controlling society through inculcating Beliefs of various kinds into susceptible populations, creating True Believers who can be played with like puppets.

Donovan also said,

I love also the quote from Ghandi: “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.”

The winning part comes next? Honest? *LOL* Wonderful quote--thank you!

And,

In general the real ‘leadership’ in the area now recognizes that there are both real and military abductions (for want of better terms) and that this consensus was not the case just a few years ago. Progress.

Good point and *great* news. I've been so deep-down in the trenches fighting the "MC consciousness raising" battle for so long that I missed that victory on the abduction front. It's an important one for me personally and it helps a lot to offset the creepy online stalking from board to board and the irrational hostility of a few abductees.

I recognize the truth of what you said about being "safe and happy", but I'm still being accessed about once a year for between 1 and 2 hours. So while I try hard to maintain emotional equilibrium and a sane view of the meddling in my life, I won't feel truly safe until the Controllers quit meddling. And I doubt if they'll do that if I keep on trying to expose their secrets online. So "safe" isn't looking like a realistic option (at least they haven't played their "bumper cars at freeway speeds" game lately--I'm thankful for small mercies). But as for "happy", I can honestly say that I'm happier now than I've ever been before. I'm someone who needs to understand my past and it now makes sesnse to me, thanks to OSR and all the other survivors of human predators who've shared information with me.

Going to think a lot about that "circle of influence" you mentioned. Thank you for some sound suggestions and some real hope that this is worth the aggravation and frustration.

LilyPat

Getting those thrice-damned "CPU quota exceeded" messages again, so I'll post some links:

Cannon -- http://www.constitution.org/abus/controll.htm
and shorter one -- http://www.book-of-thoth.com/contentsources/ufotxt/ufobulletin/1000/1776.txt

Canadian radio series on MC -- http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/radio/ckln-hm.htm

[Donovan]

LilyPat give a link for Martin Cannon and mind control. He brings up hypnosis and explains away much with this. But what is hypnosis? It varies quite a bit. Some people, just a few, when hypnotized can be suspended between two chairs, head on one chair, feet on another, like a board. Physicians can not explain this. My wife has fire walked. Many have. Mr. Cannon can call this a form of hypnosis. He can even, if he so desires, stand in the fire with his bare feet burning to a crisp, ambulance in the wait, and before he is carted off screaming, he can also scream through his other screaming with a smirk, “See those other jerks were just hypnotized or something. Smell my burning feet. See my pain. I’m in reality…. ! !” However Cannon does give a good description of mind control victims waking up – again showing that in the end health trumps perversity.)

Our own soul seems to lie to us every morning. We can feel a veil being drawn down, those dreams, those insights we can’t quite remember. Wisdom is the knowledge of what to reveal and what to conceal. So what are ‘screen memories’?

Why don’t we live life to the fullest? Have an appendectomy asleep? What a waste. I can see the line-up in front of the offices of hypnotists now, “I don’t want to miss this. I want to go back, feel the incision and every little cut. All that I missed.”

It was noted that there seems to be some ‘love’ between abductees and their ‘ETs’. In the mind control area the feeling is fear. Hate. Those are dismissed as just feelings. I think, and feel, these reports are important.

Train of consciousness:
A few months ago, autumn, I am in the Second Read bookstore-coffee shop, usually show up same time every day. Friend shows up with svelte blond in tow. The blond follows me around the coffee shop. I go to an outside table and light my stinky pipe, she even follows me there to the consternation of her host. Turns out, (she leads the conversation), that she is a Russian from New Jersey. Works for the United Nations Security Council. She prods me. I mention Chernenko. She calls him a ‘fool’. Yes, ‘fool’ was the word she used. My feeling was visceral. I distrusted her and hated her on the spot. I remember that Antropov had a cousin who tried to date my friend Kay Griggs who she described as a ‘…beer swilling police chief from New Jersey.” The head of the former Soviet Union with a cousin who is a Jersey cop. How incestuous can we get?.

This svelte blond is gushing all kinds of crap about the UN. I am about puking. But when she calls Chernenko a fool I almost loose it. I fly in to a tirade against the Security Council. And I remember Chernenko. Who was he? Only military experience was as a ‘border guard’ and you can tell by the photos he was a drill instructor’s nightmare. There are those who no matter how they are uniformed or trained can never have a military bearing. He was the ‘mind’ behind Leonid Ilyich Brezhnev, the one to hold the ‘big picture’ Chernenko was an embarassment in public. In the middle of an important speech he could start drooling down his chin and stare off into space. I believe he was a mystic.

The morning of the christening of the USS Ronald Reagan, 2000. Neocon city and they all referred to ‘Chernenko’s warning’ as the big turning point in modern history. Who was he? In my mind then I felt I could connect to him. Just my imagination. How? Real? I am not a trained psychic or remote viewer. I could see through his eyes, see him looking a very intricate golden pen holder on a desk. That was my imagination. But it led to questions from the government regarding UFOs when I did not believe in them.

Many years before there was a ‘Seth Group’ in North Carolina. Way even prior to the Falkland War. Whenever we did a group meditation we all went to ‘someplace in Leningrad’. We could not stop this even when we tried. We knew it was a secret group connected to the very top of government, hidden, using ‘music’ as a cover. They could sense us and were initially very afraid. We started to be led in dreams.

Only in a total dictatorship could something like this have been done. They already had total control. They were way ahead in psi studies. Way ahead in mind control And it seems, and I believe (with no proof), that they asked the ultimate question and performed the ultimate experiment. For a bright-shining period they stopped trying to control what they were studying. They decided to see what would happen if it controlled them. Following that the decisions of Chernenko’s inner circle slipped into a flow, a force. That led to a dangerous game. ‘Spirit’ started playing the nuke game for real. The steganography went freaksville. And somehow both air and undersea UFOs played into the drama.

I believe in Cosmic Cowbell’s good experiences. And I believe that the universe is a conspiracy for our benefit, the ultimate paranoia. And there are certain ‘channelers’ that I very much ‘grok’ with. The Seth Material and Barbara Marchiniak (and some others). And more and more I believe there are other realities. Above were some pictures of gas masks. Fine with me. Seth goes to some length to point out that in ‘visits’ from one reality to another ‘camouflages’ are needed. In one part of the Travis Walton story, Fire In The Sky, you can see the ‘grays’ hung up ‘empty’ as sort of ‘diving suits’. There was something in his book that was taken out of the movie. Something else there watching all of this: Angels.

So I am not particularly bothered when messages come from the ‘Pleiadians’. Why not? If there are other intelligences in other realities they would need give some name to communicate, perhaps a message in the name itself. Imagination the contact, the link. And the systems could be quite different. Completely different ‘programs’ or ‘parts of the system’. Perhaps someone could channel ‘Zorba from Zipthon’. Fine with me if he has something good to say. Perhaps Zipthon Man states that the systems, the programs are very different. But also that at times with ‘camouflage’ one reality can transpose, at least in part, onto another. Perhaps Zipthon Man gets more specific with this. Suggests an experiment. Says that the realities are very much apart but at times he can transpose parts of his ‘screen imagination’ onto your ‘screen imagination’. Same screen only a layer apart. “Just hold right there,” says Zipthon Man, “It is called cut and paste.”
www.midcoast.com/~michael1

[Cosmic Cowbell]

I'm not going to post in this thread again as I feel I've made my points and I'm really not one who enjoys engaging in Internet hissyfits. Before I go, I would like to clear something up and it goes to a direct question asked of me and I feel it deserves a answer.

I'm genuinely curious, since you're not the only one who reacts this way and there has to be a reason.

I think it's because I feel like there is a fair amount of manipulation being done by you Lilypat. You consistently attempted to try to frame me (and in the past, just about everyone else of a different opinion) or characterize me as something I'm not, in order to frame yourself as a "victim". You are very good at the art of being the "victim" LilyPat. As a matter of fact, I think you have it down to a science. You use words to describe me alternatively as "Hostile", "Incensed", I am a "Handwringer" suffering from "Stockholm Syndrome" who may also has a messianic complex as I am painted as thinking myself a "Chosen" one. I possess an "Impenetrable Ire" while you are self described as one who delivers "earnest responses". You have accused me of following you about and harassing you here in other threads re: M/C and yet when I ask you to show me where this has occurred, you ignore this request. Basically, because it is untrue and you can't. Today, you posted this over at UC:

Repeating phrases--OH yeah. But I'm hesitant to post what mine are, since they sound very 'program' to me and might provide info useful to handlers/disinfo creeps. One plays automatically every time I'm stressed--it just ran on a continuous loop for a couple of minutes yesterday, due to a brouhaha on the RI board.

Speaking of which--remember "badpony"? S/he followed me to the Black Vault first (as "scout") and then to RI (as "Cosmic Cowbell") and yesterday accused ME of sockpuppeting--!!! *LOL* (and of being OSR, in particular) Took me a while to go over old emails s/he'd sent to me and figure out who it was. S/he posts to any MC-themed thread where I do, on any board, and attacks sporadically, expressing outrage that I'm trying to invalidate all alien abductees.

You may not have noticed Lilypat, and not that it matters, but I was a member of this board a full six months before you showed up. None of what you have written above is the truth, but it does again demonstrate your need to demonize those that disagree with you and how you fabricate yourself as the constant 'victim'..

I will continue to suspect you of being OSR. You two are like bad pennies that consistently show up together, including here, and I find the fact that you were not forthcoming as to your history with OSR at the beginning of this thread most telling. She may another of your 'personalities', an 'alter' or simply on purpose. I may be wrong, but I doubt it.

Disinformation, in the context of espionage, military intelligence, and propaganda, is the spreading of deliberately false information to mislead an enemy as to one's position or course of action. It also includes the distortion of true information in such a way as to render it useless.

Just who is the 'enemy' here?

BTW- To be fair and in the interest of full disclosure, you know me at UC as 'Jonah'. Because I respect both Jeff and Whitley, their thoughts and efforts, this will be the end of our conversation.

I hope that answers your question Lilypat.

Donovan, while we may not agree on all things, I do appreciate the tone of your delivery and your willingness to consider all experiences as valid. I do not doubt people have unpleasant experiences. Having awoken at age seven with a hole punched into my head through my right nostril and with such massive blood loss that required a trip to the ER was one of mine. This shortly after a confrontation with one of Striebers "little blue doctors'.

Been there, done that....

[Hugh Manatee Wins]

I put this in the Data Dump forum. It read very honestly and wisely to me. Lots of integrity.

I noted that Katherine Sullivan's descriptions of how dominators/controllers would just get "too close" and she'd succumb to them matched descriptions by so-called 'alien abductees' in David Jacobs' accounts from people under hypnosis recounting their experiences. I think they'd been put into trance repeatedly and thus become very easy to control in subsequent encounters.

Anyway.

This is for LilyPatToo and all of us, not just RA survivors. WARNING: Can be Triggering.
http://rigorousintuition.ca/board/viewtopic.php?t=10367

Setting and Reinforcing Personal Boundaries, K. Sullivan

This transcript is from a presentation by Katherine Sullivan at The Third Annual Ritual Abuse, Secretive Organizations and Mind Control Conference, August 4 – 6, 2000 at the DoubleTree Hotel in Windsor Locks, CT. Some of the topics discussed may be triggering. The conference is educational and not intended as therapy or treatment. All accusations are alleged. Our providing the information below does not necessarily constitute our endorsement of it.

Click here to return to our home page: http://members.aol.com/smartnews/index2.html
......
As I sat at the table, thinking about what had just happened, I flashbacked. I realized that in the past, when male handlers wanted to put me in a trance, all they had to do was get too physically close to me in public. They didn’t have to jingle their keys or do elaborate hand signals … they just plain got too close to me. That’s all it took! Each time, this action quickly put me in a trance state. Once they did that, I was totally vulnerable to go anywhere they instructed me to. This realization shook me up, but then I realized that I had finally broken their spell … all because I found the core of the trauma base that made me a victim in the first place.

Her fall back to being "logical and rational" when needed resonated with me. But then I'm a non-recovering 'rationalist reductionist.' lol.

A mental boundary I’ve practiced for myself, to stay out of psychosis and unreality, is this: when I’m not sure what is real and what is not, I go with what is most logical and practical. I learned this rule from an investigator about five years ago. Going by what is most logical and rational has saved me tremendous grief when I ran into programming about past lives, demons, aliens, and all the rest of the crap that mind-control perpetrators tried to use to trick and confuse and discredit me as a potential witness in court.

Another way I’ve discovered to protect my mind is to learn every way I can to reduce my trancing and dissociation. This is the best way I can protect myself, because hypnosis and trancing are the main way perps reaccess survivors. EEG Biofeedback helped me to cut way down on dissociation, and to take control of when and how much I trance. Another good method was to learn about hypnosis. Carla Emery’s "Encyclopedia of Hypnosis" is the best tool I’ve ever run across. It was very triggering, but for me that was a good thing. She did make some comments about the FMSF that I’m not too happy with, but the rest of her book has been very helpful to me.

[LilyPatToo]

CC, if I'm mistaken and you aren't that particular stalker, then I apologize for that. But you use the exact, precise wording that s/he has used in speaking to me on 3 different boards and in PMs and emails. The mistake was inevitable, since I'm a student of writing and can't help but notice the way people express themselves when they post.

If you were into that too, you would know that Onesmartrat and I could not be the same person--our posts vary enormously in style/structure, punctuation and word choice--and even in subject matter a lot of the time. Yes, I've heard of that happening with alters, but she is not my alter. She's a real flesh-and-blood woman who I met with in San Francisco one day a while back and had a lovely meal with while we talked each other's ears off. You are welcome to believe whatever you want, but that won't change the fact that we live far, far apart in different states and have met precisely once.

As for your personal attacks, go for it. Sticks and stones. Oil and water. Have a nice life and please, please remember that I do not and have not ever tried to tell you that your abductions weren't by aliens. Ever. And if OSR did, I seem to have missed it entirely. Knowing her, I doubt very much if she cares about your resentment of her or of me. I'm working on not caring myself and hope to attain her level of detachment very soon.

I do not post for you and I do not accept responsibility for your hostility to me. You own it. I'm here for the survivors of mind control. Not the victims--the *survivors*. People like me, who are waking up to some harsh truths after a lifetime of lies, maiming, murder and torture, paid for by our parent's and our own tax dollars, and the last thing we need is to be attacked meanspiritedly again when we try to speak out.

LilyPat