David Icke is right: Poll

[Wombaticus Rex]

^^Oh, I definitely agree with "linkages", but it's the "ordered heirarchy" I reject, vehemently, as sloppy assumptions with zero evidence and minimal probability. No doubt the NWO has their own Tulpas, Daemons and Eregores, but the deck is stacked against us enough without presuming that the entire system is taking orders from non-human entities, and the fight against the global power structure is actually a fight against "the supernatural."

[8bitagent]

People talk about the elites, the nwo...well, who...or what, is above them?

AND THIS IS EXACTLY WHY THE PERVASIVE USE OF SPATIAL METAPHORS TO DISCUSS POLITICS HANDICAPS THE DISCUSSION.

Are you imply that the facist power structure of the Western world is "run" by the same non-human intelligence that Dolan, Vallee, Keel, Greenfield, Crowley, Hansen, and dozens of others study?

I think that's absurd.

I think that's characterizing the most baffling, alien phenomenon on Earth as some sort of saturday morning cartoon bad guy.

I think that's ascribing more power to the "NWO" than they deserve -- they're already control of militaries, media, schools...now we're going to just assume they're taking orders from non-local, non-human intelligences, too?

I think the NWO is more afraid of non-human intelligence than we are.

Of course they are afraid.

They bargaained for more than they wanted pulling crap like this:





It's not that the pentagram is "bad", but its the intention. And America seems set up from the beginning by the occult elite to use someday as
a spear to reign terror with the world wide.

As Manly P Hall said, America has a "special interest"

Of course they are scared.

The same "extraterrestrial" Crowley talks about, Hitler claimed to be puppeteered by.

Jeff wrote on his blog about something I had also read about...that of US army experimenters growing frightened that these "abductees" and UFO research, as well as trying to harness UFO stuff wasnt so much pointing to "aliens", but something much darker and evil.

I mean saying its all just happy grey aliens wanting to study us also seems like a saturday morning cartoon.

To me "mass incompetence" doesnt account for a tight pyramidal structure of compartmentalization, massive child sex kidnapping epidemics worldwide, and the real nature of war and that which surrounds it.

Even in symbolic terms, they weave their black magic through repitition ("september the 11th...september the 11th...9/11...terrorists...be afraid!")
corporate occult sigils, etc.

Again, if we look at the pyramid as the template...who is ABOVE
Rockefeller, Kissinger, CFT, Trilateral, etc?

Well heres one of the answers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucis_Trust
http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NewAge/Lucis_Trust.htm

It should seem unsettling that a lot of UN charter, globalist ideas, etc is set by a group of occult Lucerferian channellers who claim to get directions from "Ascended Masters".

No wonder the Nazis were obsessed with Tibetan Himilayas, and the Chinese seem afraid of it. Their "Tibetan Ascended Masters" sound suspiciously like things that Buddhists certainly woul dnot stand for.

[8bitagent]

^^Oh, I definitely agree with "linkages", but it's the "ordered heirarchy" I reject, vehemently, as sloppy assumptions with zero evidence and minimal probability. No doubt the NWO has their own Tulpas, Daemons and Eregores, but the deck is stacked against us enough without presuming that the entire system is taking orders from non-human entities, and the fight against the global power structure is actually a fight against "the supernatural."

So Hitler and the Nazis, total puppets of the globalist new world order...so steeped in the blackest aspects of the occult...who made many war decisions based on this stuff were merely adorning all this stuff for kicks?

You agree theresa Fortean linkage to the elite, well what's to say at the very top of the pyramid, these elites arent exactly in control?

Seems to me like its all a Faustian pact in the fullest sense.

Im sure when the elites are in their robes in Belgium castles and European mansions doing their sacrifices and rituals, they are more than happy to be the mere chess pieces in offering spiritual food for that which is really controlling the planet.

I aint even Christian nor of any faith, Im just seeing where the evidence fits...like a detective looking at patterns in a serial killer case.

[Hammer of Los]

I find this sort of thing horribly fascinating of course, as we probably all do, having come to this forum via Jeff's blog, which has always dealt with this issue, even if more as inference or speculation than anything else.

But that's the problem isn't it really, that its all sort of unknowable.

I am very hesitant to believe in non-human intelligences that can be summoned or attracted by occult rituals, for obvious reasons.

So, colour me highly sceptical, but interested.

It is certain that there have been, and likely still are, groups of powerful people who are active occultists, but beyond that I couldn't say.

As to Icke, I like the guy, but I dont believe in reptilians, no. A lot of his stuff I can go along with for sure. I don't think he is a bigot or dangerous, although I could see how his ideas might be taken up by folk who are dangerously unstable, but you could say the same about a lot of people and their ideas, so I don't really count that as criticism of Icke.

But as I say, I am interested, so if anyone wants to try and convince me, I would be delighted to listen with my wide-open mind.

[MASONIC PLOT]

Keep in mind Hitler was a member of the German Thule Society. The founder the Skull and Bones Society at Yale, William Russell, was also a Thule Society member. He went to Germany to study at Thule, when he returned he founded the S&B at Yale.

[Attack Ships on Fire]

Again, I think Icke is only wrong in the context of what he called "Reptillians".

This is an excellent, albeit Christian slanted article on the dark ugly truth of what people call "UFOs" or "aliens"

http://www.despatch.cth.com.au/Transcripts/ufo_1.htm

People talk about the elites, the nwo...well, who...or what, is above them?

Straight from that link you mentioned: "UFOs are demonic manifestation in the last days. The false "saviours" who promise eternal life. The major indoctrination from the "aliens" is that we all must merge into the One World if we are to save ` Mother Earth'and live together in unity."

I've spoken to a Christian that believes in this theory. As far as I can determine there is zero proof supporting it. It's just another sales pitch from a group that claims to know the exact nature behind the UFO phenomena. I strongly disagree that the ETs presence here is a demonic one with their origins in a Christian mythology, My advice is that if you bump into any religious people that try to sell you that kool-aid, avoid them.

[Attack Ships on Fire]

I think the NWO is more afraid of non-human intelligence than we are.

I agree with you. The elite are scared of higher agencies because they have more power than they do. Suppose you own a company that dominates the town it resides in. Your workers,their families, the other businesses in the town that provide services to the residents, the local government, all are dependent on the local big business. Now suppose you find out that there's a competitor of yours, a huge transglobal company that has expressed an interest in opening a chapter in your town. What's the first emotion you would have? Would you greet them with open arms or be fearful that you could lose what you've got?

There are micro and macro views of social organizations; your neighborhood group watch or co-op board, your suburb, your city, your state, your federal government, your hemisphere. Why can't there be levels beyond the superpowers (the NWO) and ones beyond that (ET agencies/organizations/races)? If the curtain was ever raised from the ET mystery and we found out that they or some are biological beings with their own purposes, missions and even national interests, where's that leave American imperialism? It's yesterday's news.

This seems like a natural progression of power and it fits in nicely as a theory for explaining why western governments cover up serious discussion of these phenomena. Why wreck the good thing that they've got? They're the kings of the local ant hill and occasionally the shadows of something large and otherworldly pass over our ant hill and make a few of us pause and look up. Can an ant figure out what those shadows are?

Can we?

[Et in Arcadia ego]

But maybe I'm just seeing archetypes in place of human depravity.

Human Depravity is an Archetype..

[thurnundtaxis]

I tend to view the occult issue amongst the elite as a ritual construct that is primarily language based and can best be looked at linguistically. Concepts are formed through language and essentially our reality is what we describe it as. I feel that semiotically and ontologically the primary basis of our agreement as to what a social construct is, determines its function and form.
So, when certain aspects of discourse are framed in parameters of, " I versus Thou", or "Creator versus DemiUrge", or "left Pillar versus Right Pillar" types of thinking these concepts actualize themselves as a shared reality- mainly through an agreement based on our descriptive processes. These descriptions are reinforced at one level as a sort of "primary code" through repetion and ritual, and become manifested in a common language that is spoken by an unholy alliance of Sorcerer Priests and their cohorts the Brutal Warrior Kings, the rest of humanity can only repeat their conceptual matrices and mantras. Archetypes and ephemeral, word-based "laws"
created and reinforced through religion and the state are given to the mases wholesale through the perfunctory
"educational" institutions of our dominator modeled societies. Certainly the so-called group of Abrahamic Religions reinforce a false sort of Monotheism or Mono-Reality that at it's heart actually a dualistic, divide and conquer, mechanism. Perhaps this Manichean construct is indeed itself what must be discussed. And notions formed as to how to create a more "egalitarian ontology" that can manifest itself through a conception that does not involve the invokation of such a malevolent oppositional force which the powers that be have linguistically created through myth, ritual and religion and enforced with brutal bloodshed. It is this "evil" conceptual force with whom the dominant world forces of power identify and certainly not the all-loving and just, father/creator archetype which is most openly espoused.

--Just a rant,off the top of my head... but that's what this discussion on Icke has brought to mind.


His work had confirmed many of my previous "notions". At least I now know I'm not alone in having drawn these types of conclusions.


But I am very skeptical of extra terrestrial themes in general.

I prefer to blame things on the development of a brutal patriarchal system
enforced psychologically through various rituals, stories, musical patterns, and other wel promulgated cultural trappings. And of course the real enforcement comes from those who will kill as many other humans as nessecary to maintain their grand ambitions to be such jealous and vengefull gods.

[jingofever]

So Hitler and the Nazis, total puppets of the globalist new world order...so steeped in the blackest aspects of the occult...who made many war decisions based on this stuff were merely adorning all this stuff for kicks?

Keep in mind Hitler was a member of the German Thule Society.

Hitler's disinterest in volkisch ideas relating to ancient Germanic institutions and traditions is reflected in the development of the early Nazi Party under his leadership. While the Thule Society and the Germanenorden were devoted to the Aryan-racist-occult cultural complex, their successor organizations stressed the lost war, the betrayal of Germany by politicians, and bitter anti-Semitism in their discussions and propaganda. Rudolf von Sebottendorff, the founder-leader of the Thule Society and an admirer of List, Lanz, and Stauff, encouraged the establishment of the Political Workers' Circle (PAZ) with respect to mundane grievances in order to catch 'the man in the street'. The German Worker's Party (DAP) also had little concern for volkisch-cultural materials. There is no evidence that Hitler ever attended the Thule Society. Sebottendorff quitted the Thule after the hostage fiasco in June 1919. Johannes Hering's diary of Society meetings mentioned the presence of other Nazi leaders between 1920 and 1923, but not Hitler himself. Once Hitler was in firm control of DAP, the party's chief attribute was anti-Semitic oratory at public meetings and street activism, while any volkisch-cultural interests were relegated to the preserve of back room enthusiasts.

In Mein Kampf Hitler denounced the 'volksich wandering scholars' and cultists as ineffectual fighters in the battle for Germany's salvation and poured scorn on their antiquarianism and ceremonial. This statement has been variously interpreted as an attack on Karl Harrer of the PAZ and his attempt to control the early DAP, or on the Strasser group in North Germany during the 1920s. In any case, the outburst clearly implies Hitler's contempt for conspiratorial circles and occult-racist studies and his preference for direct activism. Hitler was surely influenced by the millenarian and manichaean motifs of Ariosophy, but its descriptions of a prehistoric golden age, a gnostic priesthood, and a secret heritage in cultural relics and orders had no part in his political or cultural imagination. These ideas were of course widespread in the volkisch movement, but Hitler's achievement was the transformation of this nationalist feeling and nostalgia into a violently anti-Semitic movement concerned with national revolution and revival. By contrast, Heinrich Himmler always dwelt on the old Germanic roots of his utopian plans.

--snarfed from The Occult Roots of Nazism by Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke

Everything I have read about Hitler indicates he did not believe in "the woo" but that some of his underlings did.

[theeKultleeder]

Jingo, I think Hitler was a "meat puppet" for very dark forces. If you've ever seen videos of people being possessed or channeling a violent spirit (like the Tibetan State Oracle (Nam Chung?)) you might see some of the same spastic and beyond-normal-than-human-endurance bodily movements.

I really think the man Hitler was little more than a shell or vessel used to house something awful.

But there I ago again, falling into the same pattern of thinking that Wombat objects to.

[Wombaticus Rex]

No, by all means, do your thing. Doesn't bother me. This place would be boring as fuck if we all agreed.

[theeKultleeder]

No, by all means, do your thing. Doesn't bother me. This place would be boring as fuck if we all agreed.

I agree.

[8bitagent]

I think the NWO is more afraid of non-human intelligence than we are.

I agree with you. The elite are scared of higher agencies because they have more power than they do. Suppose you own a company that dominates the town it resides in. Your workers,their families, the other businesses in the town that provide services to the residents, the local government, all are dependent on the local big business. Now suppose you find out that there's a competitor of yours, a huge transglobal company that has expressed an interest in opening a chapter in your town. What's the first emotion you would have? Would you greet them with open arms or be fearful that you could lose what you've got?

There are micro and macro views of social organizations; your neighborhood group watch or co-op board, your suburb, your city, your state, your federal government, your hemisphere. Why can't there be levels beyond the superpowers (the NWO) and ones beyond that (ET agencies/organizations/races)? If the curtain was ever raised from the ET mystery and we found out that they or some are biological beings with their own purposes, missions and even national interests, where's that leave American imperialism? It's yesterday's news.

This seems like a natural progression of power and it fits in nicely as a theory for explaining why western governments cover up serious discussion of these phenomena. Why wreck the good thing that they've got? They're the kings of the local ant hill and occasionally the shadows of something large and otherworldly pass over our ant hill and make a few of us pause and look up. Can an ant figure out what those shadows are?

Can we?

I agree, but it seems clear that the elites be it Bush, Blair and Belgium officials in their own strange way try to harness this overshadowing power.

Where is the proof these "aliens" are physical biological creatures with
nuts and bolt physical ships? Im starting to think these UFO crashes are all disinfo.

Thats not to say the nwo, as Kissinger said, would want a fake alien attack to force everyone into a one world government.

Now I am definately not a Christian, so Im still wrapping my head around the purpose and mystery of Christ...tho its interesting to note even Lucerferians seem to believe in Jesus...tho they think hes the bad guy

Christians are kind of off on a lot of things tho. People refer to "fallen angels" as horned disturbing looking creatures...when in reality it sounds more like big Norse type guys that girls would be falling over themselves for, with a lower tier army of the lesser key of solomon beasties.

going from both occultic and Christian ideas, it would be presumptuous to think of fallen angels/angels/the devil as creatures instead of earth men looking entities. Either the "grey" is a projected hoax like gnomes/faeries/etc, or this is akin to wise old Yodas as some Masons believe in.

Either way, I think what UFOlogists, Christians and people like Alice Bailey are tripping over is all the same thing.

Of course, Im just going by whats out there. I dont believe I need to be "saved" and I certainly dont feel I anyone needs to be forced at gun point into being into a religion like Christianity

Again, I think Icke is only wrong in the context of what he called "Reptillians".

This is an excellent, albeit Christian slanted article on the dark ugly truth of what people call "UFOs" or "aliens"

http://www.despatch.cth.com.au/Transcripts/ufo_1.htm

People talk about the elites, the nwo...well, who...or what, is above them?

Straight from that link you mentioned: "UFOs are demonic manifestation in the last days. The false "saviours" who promise eternal life. The major indoctrination from the "aliens" is that we all must merge into the One World if we are to save ` Mother Earth'and live together in unity."

I've spoken to a Christian that believes in this theory. As far as I can determine there is zero proof supporting it. It's just another sales pitch from a group that claims to know the exact nature behind the UFO phenomena. I strongly disagree that the ETs presence here is a demonic one with their origins in a Christian mythology, My advice is that if you bump into any religious people that try to sell you that kool-aid, avoid them.

So uh, wheres the ships? Why are so many crop circles, the ones obviously not man made, of occult symbology a lot of times? Why are most of the countless abductee accounts of a very disturbing nature?

Why did Crowley and Hitler speak of being "overshadowed" by the same type of "alien"?

Hey Im just saying, I think some of that new age stuff is directly a torjan horse for the nwo, and I look no further than Lucis Trust and their "ascended masters" for that.

Even if we dont believe in this stuff, the elites do...which makes the whole thing all the more frightening.

Keep in mind Hitler was a member of the German Thule Society. The founder the Skull and Bones Society at Yale, William Russell, was also a Thule Society member. He went to Germany to study at Thule, when he returned he founded the S&B at Yale.

Is there any connection of them to the Serbian Black Hand group that was used to start world war 1, who has the same symbol as skull and bones/order of death?

[8bitagent]

Everything I have read about Hitler indicates he did not believe in "the woo" but that some of his underlings did.

Thats like saying "well Bush isnt an occultist, but his string pullers are".

Ive read about Hitler becoming entranced by an extraterrial presence that worked through him, not sure where that information comes from.

Theres no doubt the Nazis were drenched in an ocean of the occult, even as Hitler claimed "freemasons, Zionists and commies" ruled the world...and in the last years Hitler tried to wipe out all forms of occult/new age/etc stuff including killing 30,000 Freemasons.

However the Nazis had a keen interest in Tibet, which they allegedly took expeditions too. This is where Alice Bailey says her "Ascended masters" are, just in a different dimension.

Hitler was of course a puppet, and the nwo is not above sacrificing 30,000 blue degree masons.