Waterboarding is torture

[Horatio Hellpop]

Doodad: "I am totally against torture..and some of my best friends are Arabs"

[blanc]

the real problem for America, and its silent allies now is that the only way to de-legitimise torture again is to try those responsible, all the way up the chain of command. its not going to be enough to say, sorry, lessons have been learned, we have a change of policy now and have re-instated international law. in declaring ill defined 'terrorist' groups as 'enemy', in alleging that independent states are harbouring and nurturing that enemy, and using it as reason to make war, then using torture against 'enemy' or anyone they choose to suspect of 'enemy' activity, a dire precedence has been set. its ok being the bully when you are sure you are never going to be the victim, but for how long will it last?

[Joe Hillshoist]

the real problem for America, and its silent allies now is that the only way to de-legitimise torture again is to try those responsible, all the way up the chain of command. its not going to be enough to say, sorry, lessons have been learned, we have a change of policy now and have re-instated international law. in declaring ill defined 'terrorist' groups as 'enemy', in alleging that independent states are harbouring and nurturing that enemy, and using it as reason to make war, then using torture against 'enemy' or anyone they choose to suspect of 'enemy' activity, a dire precedence has been set. its ok being the bully when you are sure you are never going to be the victim, but for how long will it last?

Yes, I agree toally.

But we'll also have to wear the guilt after the perps(all of them including those ultimately responsible, all the way up the chain of command) have been tried and (if found guilty) cemented in small brick rooms for the rest of their lives, cos we didn't stand up and scream blue murder about it at the time.

[Joe Hillshoist]

this is bullshit as usual,

well done doodad, you have derailed another post by getting into hair splitting semantics,

and so whilst the democrats and americans in a wider sense get caught in a cicular and pointless discussion of wether 'waterboarding is torture'

this thread gets caught in a circular and pointless conversation about wether in the history of humanity torture has 'ever worked'

thats not the point of the origianl article or profpan who posted it,

america has legitimised torture as one of its tools,
torture is basically worthless and creates more problems than it solves, water boarding is torture,
and not enough people in america give a shit about other humans to do anything about it

spirit versus word

bullshit its bullshit.

Doodad said this:

Oh I agree. If we are against torture, our arguments need to be totally rational and truthful, otherwise we lose respect and credibility. There is so much that can be said against torture which satisfies those criteria without resorting to, as you say, absolutes.

And its a completely valid point (for a change perhaps, but still valid).

Bringing up tortures effectiveness or lack of it, ie its unreliability (as the original article did), is opening a door to justify it.

Objecting to its use with any reference to its reliability or otherwise is foolish because it leaves the door open for "reliable" methods of torture.

All that needs to be said against torture is thats its fucking low. A base scumbags way of doing things.

We don't do that cos we are not low base scumbags and are actually trying to be decent human beings.

Period.

The writer might have made some valis points as well, but there is only one reason not to torture people.

Its fucking low.[/b]

[antiaristo]

.


The point is that the Doodad line opens up what we call a loophole, and I've become quite proficient about recognising loopholes.

All the protestations in the world about how he does not agree with torture does not change the fact that he has opened a loophole.

That's why I asked for an example where torture "worked". Doodad's "example" is only worth considering IF the subject is truly against torture.

Yeah, yeah. I know about McCain in Vietnam. I know it's supposed to mean he's against the practice. But really..is he?

Wasn't what happened to him his route to the top?

Wasn't he the one that sang "Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran"?

That's why I asked Doodad for evidence that he'd actually DONE something about it....as opposed to failing gloriously. Does he actually DO anything to keep the subject at the forefront of Americans' consciousness?

In other words, I think he's a fraud.

Anybody who is really against torture takes the same line as the last German Chancellor, Gerhard Schroeder. In the wake of Dershowitz one of his ministers mused publically whether it was worth thinking about.

Schroeder fired him.

Since then there has been no discussion of torture in Germany.

Once you open Doodad's loophole a sequence of events takes place which culminates inevitably in the practice of torture.

Now torture is the use of violence by the strong against the weak. It is a tool of fascism.

And I thought this was an anti-fascist board.

It's revealling that Doodad's example relies on a premise. The premise that McCain is actually against torture.

Because the actual practise of torture itself relies on a premise: that the human being subject to torture has something to give up. There are other premises as well.

But of course none of that matters if all you want is to create confusion and deceive the people:

Now the head of MI6 at the time has admitted, for the first time in public, that intelligence was abused. "Too much weight" was put on intelligence claims about Saddam's weapons programme, Sir Richard Dearlove told a meeting at the London School of Economics on Wednesday night. Intelligence, he said, was used to justify "government action" - ie joining the US in the invasion. The government was concerned, admitted Dearlove, that if it did use intelligence this way, it might not "carry the day" in parliament against opponents of the war.

As for the intelligence being so wrong, Dearlove had excuses. One of the reasons why it was what he called "so confusing" was because of the confusion among the Iraqis themselves. "There were probably no human sources in Iraq that could say authoritatively they did not have WMD," he said.

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/ric ... _wind.html


So here is why torture NEVER works.

ONLY FASCISTS TORTURE

and

FASCISTS ONLY EVER DECEIVE THE PEOPLE

[Doodad]

.


The point is that the Doodad line opens up what we call a loophole, and I've become quite proficient about recognising loopholes.

That's YOUR paranoia leaking through. The stark reality is that torture is not practiced SOLELY by America and Israel although you'd never know it from most on this board. That being the case, why would the world not want to make the case to the world that torture should NOT be used, in a rational manner which addresses all torture. Telling countries who routinely torture with success that it never works, aren't likely to buy the canard

I understand why many would like to claim that it never works but all they do is set themselves up for ridicule in places where they know different. Of course, if one is only interested in bashing CERTAIN countries, which looks like it is the case here, then it doesn't matter does it?

And who is the real fascist; someone who tries to speak the truth or someone who, like you, tries to invert reality? Traditionally it is the latter whether it is your intention or not. The ONLY reason for trying to hide the truth about matters such as these is always sinister in intent and always hurts the people who are trying to do the right thing in an honest manner.

[Seamus OBlimey]

How has waterboarding come to define torture? I'd read lots more about the use of electric drills and certain other techniques before someone came up with this sporty name for it.

I mean, how could we ever be outraged by something that sounds like a beach activity?

[Doodad]

How has waterboarding come to define torture? I'd read lots more about the use of electric drills and certain other techniques before someone came up with this sporty name for it.

I mean, how could we ever be outraged by something that sounds like a beach activity?

the answer is simple. Water boarding represents America; electric drills through the head or body don't. They want to keep the focus on the west. "They," being a loosely affiliated set of factions whose goal is to demonize the west and America in particular. Some do it unwittingly; most do not.

[antiaristo]

And who is the real fascist; someone who tries to speak the truth or someone who, like you, tries to invert reality?

That's simple Doodad.

The real fascist is the one who claims torture works.

Claiming torture works is a prerequisite to employing torture.

And only fascists torture.

[blanc]

like ethnic cleansing means killing people Seamus O
water down words - one might say

[Doodad]

And who is the real fascist; someone who tries to speak the truth or someone who, like you, tries to invert reality?

That's simple Doodad.

The real fascist is the one who claims torture works.

Claiming torture works is a prerequisite to employing torture.

And only fascists torture.

Your attempts at inverting this are lame. One can only wonder why you need to try.Hopefully it's just because you haven't really read what I wrote or just can't understand it. However, inversion is a propaganda technique so I remain suspicious of you.

I guess I hit a nerve with that answer to Seamus.

[professorpan]

the answer is simple. Water boarding represents America; electric drills through the head or body don't. They want to keep the focus on the west. "They," being a loosely affiliated set of factions whose goal is to demonize the west and America in particular. Some do it unwittingly; most do not.

I disagree. Waterboarding has become symbolic of torture in the U.S. because the U.S. uses waterboarding to torture people.

There's no need for electric drills to the head when subjecting people to near-drowning works well enough, and doesn't leave physical marks.

Torture is fucking torture, regardless of whether it's couched in terms like "stress positions." The simplest way to torture someone -- sensory deprivation, sleep deprivation, and physical and mental stress -- can destroy a human being just as effectively as crude physical violence.

The West NEEDS to be demonized for torturing people. Torture is DEMONIC.

[Doodad]

The West NEEDS to be demonized for torturing people. Torture is DEMONIC.

Just the West?

[Seamus OBlimey]

"They," being a loosely affiliated set of factions whose goal is to demonize the west and America in particular. Some do it unwittingly; most do not.

I do not. US foreign policy needs no demonising. It speaks for itself...

The Muppet Show - Surfin' USA

[antiaristo]

the answer is simple. Water boarding represents America; electric drills through the head or body don't. They want to keep the focus on the west. "They," being a loosely affiliated set of factions whose goal is to demonize the west and America in particular. Some do it unwittingly; most do not.

I disagree. Waterboarding has become symbolic of torture in the U.S. because the U.S. uses waterboarding to torture people.

There's no need for electric drills to the head when subjecting people to near-drowning works well enough, and doesn't leave physical marks.

Torture is fucking torture, regardless of whether it's couched in terms like "stress positions." The simplest way to torture someone -- sensory deprivation, sleep deprivation, and physical and mental stress -- can destroy a human being just as effectively as crude physical violence.

The West NEEDS to be demonized for torturing people. Torture is DEMONIC.

Your position is intellectually sound.
Yet I suspect you are wrong.

You see once again your position relies on a premise. And that premise is not always true.

Suppose the purpose of the torture is to instill fear in others?

And I disagree about what America has become.

Because my image is not one of Seamus's beach party.

No. My image is of my children being sodomized before my very eyes.

I happen to have lived that fear.

And I can tell you for a fact that "sensory deprivation" just is not in the same league for instilling fear.

And I know America did it. In Iraq.
And covered it up.

IT'S WHAT THEY WILL DO TO YOUR KIDS.
THAT'S "WHAT WORKS"

Only fascists torture.
"Torture works" is a prerequisite for torture.
Only fascists believe torture "works".

Yes. I know you dismiss my personal experiences as "batshit".

But the fact of the matter is that you have never been able to discredit me with facts. Even trying your dirty tricks (at least Qutb had the good grace to concede.)

By the way. I see the USA Establishment agrees with your position.

I wonder why?

Italy disputes U.S. worry mafioso could be "tortured"

Stephen Brown – Reuters October 16, 2007

Italy's justice minister has objected to a U.S. court's refusal to extradite a convicted Mafia drug trafficker on the grounds that a special prison regime he would face in Italy is equivalent to torture.

Rosario Gambino completed a 22-year jail term in California for drug trafficking about a year ago and has since been kept in an immigration detention centre pending an extradition request from his native Sicily.

The Los Angeles Times newspaper reported on Monday that a U.S. immigration judge had ruled that in Italy, Gambino would face a harsh special prison regime that "constitutes torture".

The judge was referring to a prison regime known as "41b", originally designed for mobsters and extended to crimes such as terrorism. It strictly limits contact with the outside world, visits, access to the open air and contact with other prisoners.

The ruling allows Gambino to stay in the United States, where he has lived since the 1960s as a suspected member of the Gambino crime syndicate, which was once controlled by the late John J. Gotti, known as the "Teflon Don".

Italian Justice Minister Clemente Mastella said he was trying to find out details of the ruling from the U.S. embassy. He questioned whether Italy's special prison regime for hard-line criminals like mafiosi and terrorists was really "torture".

Mastella also contrasted widespread use of the death penalty in the United States with Italy's ban on capital punishment.

"I don't know if a country that applies the death penalty is more in line with U.N. values than a country that applies tough prison sentences," Mastella told reporters on Monday.

Without regime 41b, Mastella said, "we would end up with the various Mafia bosses forming a chain of communication and able to plan crimes from inside prison".

The human rights group Amnesty International has criticized the special regime for imposing "a severe degree of isolation from the outside world" and linked it to cases of suicide.

But Italian magistrate Piero Luigi Vigna, a former Mafia prosecutor, told the Corriere della Sera daily that the United States "can't give lessons in human rights when they have Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib on their conscience", referring to U.S. prisons in Cuba and Iraq accused of serious human rights violations.

In Sicily, the prosecutor seeking Gambino's extradition said he was considering an appeal against the U.S. court ruling.

www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL1629493920071016