Peak Oil

Moderators: Elvis, DrVolin, Jeff

Peak Oil

Yes, it's real.
43
57%
No, it's a scam.
33
43%
 
Total votes : 76

Re: Thanks John

Postby John E. Nemo » Thu Nov 01, 2007 4:09 pm

slow_dazzle wrote:Don't know much about hemp apart from the fact that many people rave on about it. At first I thought they were stoners until I discovered that the plant has an (apparently) good environmental record. I'll check it out in more detail.

Hahahaha.
Exactly the way I felt, until I met an Amish guy who grew it for the war effort in WWII. He knew all the uses for it , such as hemp oil, all-natural pesticides, hemp plastic, hemp soap, hemp protein powder, hemp paper, etc.
The original Levis jeans were made from hemp and lasted alot longer than the denim ones, BTW.

One thing the Amish guy said that I haven't seen mentioned much, is that you can grow hemp on the same soil for 2 years in a row without the need for crop rotation and when it decomposes, it adds to soil integrity.
This is a HUGE ecological savings over other crops that are more deleterious to the soil, like cotton.

Canada is going to get rich off this stuff, if we don't re-legalize it.
Their dollar is beating our dollar now and that's just wrong, dang it.


Rabbit meat is OK but I wouldn't touch the farmed stuff. Any time I hit one in the car I stop and go look. One to make sure it is dead because I can't stand the thought of an animal limping off to die in agony. Second, if it isn't too mangled it goes into the boot! Same goes for hare and anything else that is edible including pigeons and pheasants. The only deer I have hit (roe buck) was mangled so I had to leave it, apart from the tail which I cut off for tying fishing flies.


If you watch the flim Roger and Me, Mr. Moore talks with a lady who grew rabbits for "pets or meat".
He kinda insinuated that this was something "backwards", but the energy cost savings and rapid breeding rate may change that.
If times get really tough, it'll be [i]hassenpfeffer for everyone.[/b]

I've been living in cities to long to eat pigeons, but I've eaten pheasant before.

I like your use of the deer tail for fly fishing.
Does my part-Native heart good to see all parts of the animal being used.

P.S. Are you secretly Ted Nugent?
He he.
John E. Nemo
 

Re: big oil

Postby ninakat » Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:26 pm

vigilant wrote:
ninakat wrote:
winston smith wrote:I dont know but I think there is possibly a deliberate bottleneck at the refining stage.


Quite possible, although as I've said before, even if there are shenanigans going on with Big Oil, that doesn't necessarily mean Peak Oil is a scam. It simply means that Big Oil isn't to be trusted. And, yes, Big Oil does have a lot of power, but somehow I can't see that they have so much power that they've been able to create a conspiracy on such a massive scale that all the world's governments, especially the oil producing countries, are either in on the scam or being duped.



The big hand of the petroleum industry extends far beyond simply making gasoline for cars, which is what most of us confine our awareness to. This is just an incredibly small fraction of the products petroleum is used for. When you consider this list, and all the spin off products made from them, you can barely put your hand on "anything" that isn't related to the oil industry. I can't think of anybody with more influence than the oil industry. The power is virtually unlimited...

pharmaceuticals, solvents, fertilizers, pesticides, and plastics,Wax, used in the packaging of frozen foods, most glues (including carpet glue), varnishes, polishes, paints, solvents and paint-thinners ,cosmetics,Asphalt ,Heating oil ,Diesel styrene, styrofoam, Kevlar ,Watercraft, aircraft, trucks, tanks ,Polymer-Based Structural Products,Household products, furnishings ,lubricants and motor oils for industrial and consumer use, gasoline, jet fuel, kerosene, heating oil, medical equipment,


That's a good list for those unaware, and I do agree that Big Oil has tremendous power. I just have yet to see any evidence, just speculation, that they've got the whole world and all its governments so duped that countries are going to war over oil (it's one of the prime reasons for the U.S. going into Iraq after all -- although, there are still people who take issue even with this).

And, I don't see Big Oil promoting the Peak Oil theory -- it's still something they tend to avoid talking about, as far as I'm aware. I'd be more inclined to believe in this vast conspiracy if it were being promoted and talked about a lot on MSM, but in general, it's still just a fringe topic. One would think that with the public getting more and more irate about gasoline prices, Big Oil would use the Peak Oil theory as at least one of their excuses, but I haven't seen that happening. Enlighten me if I'm mistaken here.
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Postby ninakat » Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:44 pm

Here's an open letter from Richard Heinberg to Greg Palast in response to Palast, who apparently believes it's all just a Big Oil conspiracy. It's long, but I've highlighting some important points.

No. 171 - July 2006
by Richard Heinberg

An Open Letter to Greg Palast on Peak Oil

Dear Greg,

Congratulations on your new book, Armed Madhouse. As with your previous work, I admire your dedication in exposing the machinations of government and corporate miscreants.

However, this time around you’ve also taken a potshot at a target that I happen to know a good deal about and have been closely involved with for a few years—the efforts by a growing number of analysts to forecast the arrival, and prepare the world for the consequences, of Peak Oil. In this instance I think your negative comments about Peak Oil and those of us who study it are not well informed. Ordinarily I wouldn’t respond to an ill-considered statement by an otherwise admirable author; but unfortunately you go on for several pages on this theme, and I’ve started receiving e-mails from folks who are troubled by what you said. In my many years of fighting to protect our planet from environmental destruction, I have learned how important it is to make sure that our supporters have the most accurate information possible. Time and again, I have seen our opponents seize on internal disagreements as wedges in their drive to weaken and damage the credibility of the environmental movement. I feel the responsibility to help sort out the factual issues in this instance particularly strongly because you have worked so hard to earn your reputation as a truth-teller in these perilous times.

First let me make clear where I’m coming from with my critical analysis. Before you assume that, just because I disagree with you, I must therefore be secretly in the employ of the Heritage Foundation or some nefarious corporation, I should point out that in my own recent book, Powerdown, I take the Bush administration to task as vehemently (if not at so great a length) as you have done. And I teach in a program on “Culture, Ecology and Sustainable Community” at a small, far-left liberal arts college where you have lectured. So we are in other respects natural allies.

In your book, you place your critique of Peak Oil in the context of scathing attacks on the Bush energy plan and the oil companies’ enormous ongoing political influence. These are serious problems and you deal with them skillfully and entertainingly. But, in contrast to these subjects, the Peak Oil discussion is more about science than politics, and when it comes to science, catchy phrases don’t count; only a careful weighing of evidence does. I’m sorry to say that you don’t appear to be fully informed about the terms and history of the debate.

Let’s start with your description of the work of the late geologist M. King Hubbert and the study of oil depletion.

On page 108 you pretend to summarize Hubbert’s 1956 world forecast for global oil production as follows:

Sometime during 2006, we will have used up every last drop of crude oil on the planet. We’re not talking “decline” in oil from a production “peak,” we’re talking “culmination,” completely gone, kaput, dead out of crude—and not enough natural gas left to roast a weenie.

But “Decline” and “peak” are precisely what Hubbert was forecasting—and not in 2006, but around the year 2000, as shown in the graph you reproduce on page 111. How could you possibly get the essential terms of the debate so plainly wrong? Frankly, I’m amazed. Maybe you got hung up on the word culmination (which, among other things, means “the highest point achieved by a celestial object in the night sky before it begins its descent”—a good metaphorical usage of the term in this instance). But even so, how could you have completely missed the context in which Hubbert used that word—a discussion that was entirely about “decline” and “peak”?

This is a core misunderstanding that crops up repeatedly in your treatment of the subject. In your caption to Hubbert’s graph on page 111, you say, “Note: the total sum of oil is 1,250 billion barrels—which runs out in 2006.” The graph clearly shows production peaking around the year 2000—which it probably would have done if not for the oil shocks of the 1970s, which Hubbert could not have foreseen—and still shows oil being produced in the year 2200. The oil industry is fond of citing historical claims that “oil will run out in 10 years” as a way of discrediting current concerns about Peak Oil, and your accidental misinterpretation of this graph unfortunately echoes this oil industry line.

Hubbert just flat-out never predicted that oil would “run out,” nor has any oil depletion analyst that I’m aware of predicted oil “running out.” There will always be more oil in the ground, just not enough at a cheap enough price to sustain the current world oil demand. Debaters call the “running out” argument a “straw-man” argument: you wrongly attribute an absurd statement to your adversary, you disprove the absurd statement, and the audience cheers—except for the frowning woman in row 12 who happens to be taking a course on critical thinking.

In fairness, you seem to be saying that the total amount of oil represented under the curve Hubbert drew is too small (which it was); thus, if we take that amount as fixed and subtract the amount of oil actually used so far, what’s left won’t last us till the end of this year.1 Well, according to my calculations the world still has a few years to go even if we do pursue this useless thought exercise, but that’s mere quibbling. The point you wish to make is: Hubbert got it wrong!—he underestimated the global amount of ultimately recoverable oil. therefore we should pay no attention to him.

But hang on—didn’t Hubbert get it amazingly right when in 1956 he predicted that US oil production would peak in 1970 (which it did)? You don’t mention that. Why was one prediction spot-on, the other less so? Well, in 1956 the US was much more thoroughly explored—and depleted—than the rest of the world. The method Hubbert had developed for predicting peaks worked well in the US in 1956. And it seems to be working well for other large provinces (such as the North Sea) where extraction has proceeded sufficiently far so as to establish a linear trend.2 If you want to understand the method better, I recommend a careful reading of Chapter 3 of Kenneth Deffeyes’s excellent book Beyond Oil. In the decades since Hubbert made his initial forecasts, world depletion has more than caught up with where US depletion stood back then. Thus a Hubbert-type forecast for world peak is much more likely to be correct today than it was in 1956, given the data available.

These are only a couple of examples; you go on from there. Sentence after sentence betrays ignorance of the scientific matters at issue.
There’s just no hope of setting the record straight on everything. Therefore the best I can do is to address what I take to be your three core assertions.

1. King Hubbert was a shill for Shell

Just because someone works for a company or agency, that does not mean that everything the person writes or does is in the service of the institution. But you assume the worst of Hubbert in this regard, and your line of reasoning goes like this:
King Hubbert worked for Shell Oil research labs during the years when he made his predictions about the US and world peaks in oil production. That means he was being paid by Shell. That means that the work he was doing must have been suggested by Shell, approved by Shell, and in Shell’s interest. Therefore the entire Peak Oil notion is one created, bought, and paid for by Big Oil.


This might be characterized as argument by innuendo. The first two sentences in the preceding paragraph are demonstrably true; the second two are pure conjecture. What does the evidence say? I challenge you to produce any account of the events that differs substantively from the one Ken Deffeyes (who knew Hubbert well) offers in his book Hubbert’s Peak. Not only did Shell not suggest the line of inquiry that led to Hubbert’s famous depletion curve, but when he came up with it his bosses tried to prevent him from talking about it. The general reaction in the industry was anything but supportive. Deffeyes puts it this way: “It was as if a physician had diagnosed virulent, metastasized cancer; denial was one of the responses.” Hubbert was repeatedly attacked from within the industry.

Well, you might say, maybe this was all a clever plot. I suppose there’s no way to prove whether it was or wasn’t. But we might profitably inquire: Just what kind of man was Hubbert? Was he the sort to participate in an industry conspiracy?
Not according to the people who knew him.


I cannot tell if you talked to people who knew Hubbert and worked with him—before slandering him by innuendo. I have spoken to a few such people, including several of his former students, a co-worker, and a close relative. The picture they paint is of a somewhat imperious, pig-headed genius who had gradually come to the conclusion that the world was headed in the wrong direction fast because of its dependence on fossil fuels. He was a respected geologist responsible for other important contributions in his field who, in addition to working for Shell, also worked for the USGS and taught at several universities. He did not suffer fools lightly, nor did he show much interest in climbing corporate or academic ladders. This would not appear to be the sort of person who would stake his career on a bogus hypothesis just because a temporary employer told him to.
Does the work of employees always reflect the priorities of their employers? As a current and apt analogy, consider the case of James Hansen of NASA, who has spoken out strongly about the dangers of global greenhouse gas emissions. The man works (indirectly) for the Bush administration; therefore should we assume that he is secretly doing Dick Cheney’s bidding by needlessly scaring the nation about climate change? Of course that’s absurd: the Bush administration has tried to muzzle Hansen—just as Shell tried to muzzle Hubbert.

This kind of innuendo is just not a proper form of argument.

You point out that King Hubbert supported nuclear power. I happen to disagree with him on that issue—as I also do with biologist James Lovelock, who likewise supports nukes.

But you make it sound as though Hubbert came up with his oil depletion forecasts as a justification for Shell’s nuclear program. There is no evidence for that assertion, as far as I’m aware. Hubbert’s colleagues tell the story differently: Once he had calculated that global oil production would peak in a mere half-century, Hubbert realized that the world would need a new non-fossil source of energy. At the time (remember, we’re talking about events in the 1950s), nuclear power seemed the only realistic alternative. Later he threw his support behind solar power, after that technology began to show promise.

In retrospect, it seems to me that King Hubbert was one of the most visionary scientists of the twentieth century. You may disagree. But ultimately there is only one question about Hubbert that really matters in the current discussion: did he make an important contribution to our understanding of oil depletion? On that point, there is widespread positive agreement. Not only has Hubbert’s method produced results that have been confirmed by events, it also yields forecasts that mirror ones generated through entirely different methods.

Chris Skrebowski, the editor of Petroleum Review, has been tracking decline rates from producing oilfields and comparing those numbers with new production capacity expected from the various new projects in which the industry is investing. He calls this a “bottom-up” method (because it requires patiently assembling and crunching data from many sources), in contrast to Hubbert’s “top-down” graphs. I doubt if Chris has ever drawn a standard Hubbert curve, but he has come to essentially the same conclusion as those who do: he expects global oil production to peak around 2010.
3

Was Hubbert right about everything? Obviously not. We’ve already seen that he underestimated the global amount of ultimately recoverable oil, and why he did so—because he was working with early data. However, some of your own statements seem to be inaccurate in ways that are harder to account for.

2. The oil companies are behind today’s Peak Oil warnings

You point out that Chevron has recently taken out ads declaring that world oil discoveries are down. Chevron is pushing Peak Oil! Therefore it must be a corporate plot whose purpose is to drive up oil prices and line the pockets of greedy executives. Here’s the relevant passage from your book:

So who’s selling us Peak Oil today? The operator of the supertanker Condoleezza has been running an extravagant advertising blitzkrieg to tell us: We’ve peaked! “The world consumes two barrels of oil for every barrel discovered!” That’s just the billboard. Their double-page spread in Harper’s is even more hysterical: “The fact is, the world has been finding less oil than it’s been using for twenty years now.” Unfortunately, that “fact” isn’t a fact at all—reserves rise year after year—and those facts don’t change because Chevron paid my magazine to print it.

Actually, Chevron—rather than being at the forefront of the Peak Oil discussion—is late on the scene: independent and retired geologists have been talking about this problem for years; the companies have generally been discouraging the discussion in every way possible. I know because when I lecture about the subject, the people I find myself debating are usually industry PR reps (including, just recently, one from Shell), while the folks who offer the most informed encouragement are nearly always retired or independent geoscientists. Chevron still hasn’t used the “P” word, and is just saying that oil will get more expensive from now on.

Of all the oil companies, Exxon is leading the charge in opposing Peak Oil. You may remember that Exxon also spearheaded the industry’s effort to deny the link between climate change and carbon emissions—and in fact is still doing so. Here are passages from an Exxon ad, titled “Peak Oil: Contrary to the Theory, Oil Production Shows No Sign of Peak”:

Will we soon reach a point when the world’s oil supply begins to decline? … So goes the theory. The theory does not match reality, however. Oil is a finite resource, but because it is so incredibly large, a peak will not occur this year, next year, or for decades to come.4

The case made in the Exxon ad is essentially the same one you outline in your book. So which company is telling the truth and which is engaged in a disinformation campaign? One of the problems with argument by innuendo is that it often requires us to speculate about other people’s motives. The only question that really matters here is, which line of argument is correct? And the only way to make an informed judgment in that regard is to examine and weigh the evidence and the quality of reasoning on each side.

Well, what about Chevron’s statement that “the world has been finding less oil than it’s been using for twenty years now”? You say that “isn’t a fact at all.” Not if one conflates actual discoveries with reported reserve additions. Reserve additions occur for a number of reasons—some political, some simply having to do with SEC reporting rules. Sometimes they reflect actual discoveries, but this is less the case as time goes on. The Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences, in a recent publication titled “Statements on Energy,” describes the situation this way:

In the last 10–15 years, two-thirds of the increases in reserves of conventional oil have been based on increased estimates of recovery from existing fields and only one-third on discovery of new fields. In this way, a balance has been achieved between growth in reserves and production. This can’t continue. Fifty percent of the present oil production comes from giant fields and very few such fields have been found in recent years.5

In fact, recent oil discovery figures are much worse than Chevron makes them out to be: the Chevron ad you quote says that two barrels of oil are being extracted for every one discovered; for the past few years the ratio has actually been more like four, five, or even six to one.

But why does it matter if discoveries are down, when reserves are still growing? Doesn’t the fact that global oil reserves are at record highs preclude a near-term peak in production? Not necessarily. There are many examples we could explore—after all, over half of the world’s producing nations are in decline, most of them irreversibly so. Did reserves drop substantially in these nations before they hit their production peaks? Certainly not in the most important and well-documented case—that of the US. Here, while discoveries of new fields peaked in 1930, reserves as of 1970 were at record levels, as was production. Therefore it came as a surprise to nearly everyone (except King Hubbert) when production levels began to drop the following year, despite very effort on the part of the industry to keep them soaring. US production in the onshore lower 48 is now back down to about where it was in 1940.

Is Chevron right, or is Exxon right? I’d say that what Chevron is telling the American public is closer to the truth. But only time and careful analysis will tell. Speculating on the companies’ motives may be easy and entertaining, but it is probably the least helpful way of getting at the truth in this instance.

3. The world has oodles of oil—and most of it’s in Venezuela

As I read and re-read the pages in which you claim to show that “the Peak Oil crowd is crackers,” I am disturbed to see how much your argument relies on guesses about what’s going on in the minds of oil company executives, and how little discussion you provide of the sea of facts and analysis that are publicly available. It’s in your Appendix, “Return to Hubbert’s Peak: Why Palast Is Wrong,” that you finally do present a brief analytic case. The factual core of your argument (still confined to only a few sentences) seems to be that the world simply has enormous amounts of oil, and thus a near-term peak is unthinkable.

Price, you say, makes all the difference:

World oil reserves, officially measured at 1.189 trillion barrels, are probably, as one of Mr. Hubbert’s protégés stated a few years back, grossly overstated—if you assume oil selling at $10 a barrel. But kick the price up to a post-invasion $50 a barrel, and the world reserves are wildly understated.

Yes, the world has more oil available at, say, $50 or $70 a barrel than at $10 or $20. Everyone agrees; that’s a truism in the industry. But there’s no simple mathematical relation between increasing the price of oil and increasing the size of estimated reserves. Doubling the price doesn’t double the reserves; it merely makes a few out-of-the-way known reserves more attractive.

The all-important question is, how much oil can the industry pump every day (that is, at what rate can that oil be produced)? That’s what the debate over Peak Oil is all about—not reserves or amounts ultimately recoverable, but flow rates. When will the flow rate that the industry can possibly attain reach its maximum?

With prices high, you say, hundreds of billions of barrels of oil from the tar sands of Canada and from the heavy-oil fields of Venezuela become economical to produce. Right again, though this is not conventional oil we’re talking about, but materials that have to be transformed into synthetic petroleum using energy-intensive processes. But again, the real question is, at what rates? Canada is currently extracting a million barrels a day from the tar sands; Venezuela is pulling a little over half that amount from the Orinoco belt. These numbers are expected to climb—and then level off. Why? Because the process of producing synthetic oil from these low-quality hydrocarbon sources is constrained by physical factors that just do not respond much to economic stimuli. Canada needs lots of water and natural gas to make oil from the tar sands, and both are in short supply. The best published forecasts say that, regardless of the price of oil, flow rates there will max out at about three to five million barrels per day by 2025—a generous amount in terms of the benefit to Canada’s economy. But this is not nearly enough fuel to satisfy the US habit of over 20 million barrels per day—and crucially, it’s not enough to make up for expected declines from the world’s giant and supergiant conventional oilfields once the latter begin their inevitable declines—as they are doing now. There are only about a hundred of those big fields that, collectively, yield roughly half the oil extracted today. Nearly all are old (found in the 1940s through the 1970s), and we’re seeing that, with the newer water-flooding recovery methods, when decline comes it can hit unexpectedly and with catastrophic swiftness—as in the Yibal field in Oman, which peaked at 250,000 barrels per day in 1997 and is already down to less than 80,000 b/d.

The situation in Venezuela is similar to that in Canada.

All of these questions have been discussed, dissected, analyzed, and graphed endlessly. Yes, it’s theoretically possible to build nuclear reactors to cook the tar sands—but the practical challenges in that case are prohibitive, as the tar sands are geographically extensive and each nuclear plant would be able to heat only a limited area; that means lots of expensive nuke plants with useful lifetimes limited by the amount of bitumen within easy reach. It’s already expensive to make oil from bitumen; adding hundreds of billions of dollars in nuke plants and the exercise quickly becomes an investor’s worst nightmare.

I could provide more details, but what’s the point? We are breaking no new ground here. Every serious analyst I know who is predicting a global oil production peak between now and, say, 2012 is thoroughly familiar with the standard free-market argument about higher prices stimulating more production, and with the published reserves figures for tar sands, heavy oil, shale oil, and so on. All of this has long ago been taken into account.

After writing the previous paragraph, I went back to your book to see if I had missed something. But no—the rest is all guesswork: Why did the US really invade Iraq—was it to close down the oil spigot and raise prices? Is Shell Oil Company using its ads to try to scare us into supporting further invasions of the Middle East? Did Hubbert time the release of his famous paper to coincide with the overthrow of Iran’s Mossadegh and the closure of the Suez Canal? I honestly don’t know whether you’re right on any of these points. I just don’t have enough information to go on—even though I’ve spent the past few years devoting considerable time each day to studying the oil industry and following the same press reports you must have read.

What I do know is that the specific facts and arguments you have brought up in order to “debunk” the Peak Oil thesis are not up to your usual journalistic standards.

* * *

In an apparent nod to folks like me, you write, near the very end of your book, “Some environmentalists have echoed the ‘peak oil’ theorem in the false hope that oil companies’ raising prices will lead to conservation. Fat chance.” As you might imagine, Greg, it gives me no pleasure to see the efforts of five years (and the motives for those efforts) misrepresented and flushed away in a couple of snide sentences. The truth is, I write and speak about Peak Oil because I believe that the evidence for it is overwhelming, that it will have a devastating impact on everything we hold dear, that there are actions we can take to mitigate that impact, and that those efforts won’t be undertaken unless the public is alerted.
The problem of Peak Oil has been acknowledged by environmentalists like Bill McKibben and Lester Brown, by public figures like Bill Clinton, by international affairs experts like Michael Klare, and by both oil industry insiders and severe critics of the industry. The world is deeply dependent on cheap, abundant oil, and we are seeing the end of cheap oil unfolding before our eyes. The process of economic adaptation is not going to be quick or easy. We’re all going to have to work together on this—whether we think of ourselves as liberals or conservatives, whether we live in rich or poor countries, and regardless of our area or level of expertise. Naturally, there will be disagreements along the way, some folks will try to take advantage of the situation, and we’ll need investigative reporters like you to help keep everyone informed and honest. But if we don’t commit ourselves to trying to work together, things could get ugly—much uglier than they already are.
I’d be happy to discuss the evidence with you at greater length, and I’d be happy to point you toward some good source material, most of it untainted by association with any oil company.
As I’ve said, I refuse to speculate about your motives. I assume they are the best. Therefore I also assume that, if shown to be incorrect, you will set the record straight. Everyone is wrong sometimes, and when one is publicly wrong, there is a strong incentive to retrench. Being wrong in print is the worst case. But sometimes it happens, and when it does the best thing is to admit it and move on.
On the other hand, you may wish to write a rebuttal. If so, might I suggest some sources for research on anti-Peak Oil arguments? Try these:

• Exxon (as discussed above);
• Daniel Yergin, chairman of Cambridge Energy Associates and author of The Prize and The Commanding Heights—the latter a book that’s on every neocon’s short list of favorites; and
• Jerome Corsi, proponent of the “abiotic oil” hypothesis and primary architect of the Swift Boat disinformation campaign against John Kerry.

Now, these people’s assertions have already been countered by competent scientists, so if you want to make a real contribution to the discussion, you will need to take account of those counter-arguments and bring the debate up to a still higher level. That will require familiarizing yourself with an extensive literature.
But I would greatly prefer it if you would simply acknowledge that thousands of Peak Oil activists around the world are in fact devoting themselves to a worthy cause. Many of them are working hard to wean themselves and their local communities from oil dependency.
In my view, the best large-scale strategy for going forward would include the international ratification of an Oil Depletion Protocol mandating reductions in petroleum production and oil imports. Such an agreement would tend to stabilize prices, reduce international competition and conflict, and conserve the resource base. If nations observed such a Protocol, it would also help with the problem of greenhouse gas emissions, as long as it was accompanied by a strong Kyoto-like accord. A coalition of individuals and groups is forming in order to persuade the nations of the world to adopt such a Protocol.6
I’d really like to have your support on the Protocol and on grassroots Peak Oil efforts, Greg. A lot of people listen to what you have to say, and a lot is at stake.
Sincerely,
Richard

Notes

1. Hubbert estimated that the Earth would eventually yield about 1,250 billion barrels of regular oil (excluding tar sands, oil shale, and so on); many current estimates of global recoverable regular oil are in the range of 2,000 billion barrels, or about 800 billion barrels (65%) higher. The world has consumed just about 1,000 billion barrels so far.
2. Jeffrey J. Brown and “Khebab,” “Texas and US Lower 48 Oil Production as a Model for Saudi Arabia and the World,” May 25, 2006, http://graphoilogy.blogspot.com/2006/05 ... on_25.html. See also Roger Blanchard, “North Sea Oil Production and its Relationship to Global Oil Production,” June 19, 2006, www.energybulletin.net/17262.html.
3. Chris Skrebowski, “Megaprojects Analysis Explained,” June 21, 2006, www.energybulletin.net/17262.html.
4. www2.exxonmobil.com/Corporate/Files/Corporate/OpEd_peakoil.pdf.
5. “Statements on Oil” Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences Energy Committee. (17 Oct. 2005) www.energybulletin.net/9824.html.
6. More information will soon be available at www.oildepletionprotocol.org.
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Postby ninakat » Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:42 pm

Thanks everybody for voting and participating. The results show that over 2/3 of RIers believe Peak Oil is real. That's pretty conclusive, but unlike most elections, the polls are still open. You can even still try and rebut Richard Heinberg if you have some solid evidence, other than conjecture by Alex Jones or Greg Palast or that former baptist minister guy.

Does it warm my heart that Peak Oil is real? Hell yeah, but just don't call me a "doomer."
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Postby JoseFreitas » Sun Nov 04, 2007 12:24 pm

Apparently the bottleneck at refining capacity is real, and may have some impact on recent high prices of oil Obviously, this doesn't mean Peak Oil isn't real, quite the contrary. One of the primary reasons refining capacity is low is that most big oil majors do not really believe that current oil production will ever really be higher than now (ie at 80-90 Mb/day) and don't see the point of massive investment plans when the peak is about to come and output will soon fall to a 70-80 range (that and the Not in My Backyard Syndrome).
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Postby JoseFreitas » Sun Nov 04, 2007 12:32 pm

Also, the truth is that oil is far too useful for many other things, it's plain stupid to burn it around in cars.

The major issue is one of social base. We should be addressing the issue of reducing our needs for cars rather than just worrying about finding replacements for oil. Otherwise, even if we switch to hemp, sometime soon we'll reach the point where all land is being used to produce biodiesel, and then what? Sorry, no more food, I need to drive to the mall with your food in my car tank?

If we managed to reduce our driving by 25% we probably would save a good 8-10 million barrels of oil out of current world production. This is the equivalent of finding 3 to 4 Iraq giant oil fields. Saving is a better investment than finding replacements (although I agree that on an environmental principle hemp should be used). But savings is something than runs against the current social organization of our societies. It's like telling major corporations: OK, from now on, you take a 10% cut in your yearly revenues every year, because that's our goal to save energy. Impossible.
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Postby slow_dazzle » Sun Nov 04, 2007 2:08 pm

Jose - That was so funny. Serious yet funny.

You are right about saving energy going against how our societies think. They are mainly on one big spending spree, buying stuff that they will probably forget they bought, a year from now. I saw two of them today - they had each bought an electronic keyboard from a mini market. God help the neighbours...

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Postby ninakat » Sun Nov 04, 2007 2:13 pm

JoseFreitas, thanks for those excellent postings -- all the arguments you made were spot on. Conservation is an incredibly powerful thing -- but, like you said, it'll never happen. Growth, growth, growth is the way of capitalism. And, biodiesel is a good alternative, but not for keeping things at the current levels of consumption. So many people simply don't realize how much corn, hemp, sugar, etc. it would take to keep up with current levels and future growth. Yeah, driving to the mall instead of eating!

Your point about the lack of refineries is worth repeating:

One of the primary reasons refining capacity is low is that most big oil majors do not really believe that current oil production will ever really be higher than now (ie at 80-90 Mb/day) and don't see the point of massive investment plans when the peak is about to come and output will soon fall to a 70-80 range (that and the Not in My Backyard Syndrome).
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Postby winston smith » Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:03 am

I understand that peak oil theory explains why big oil may not invest in new refineries and it may also explain a concerted campaign to close functioning and profitable refineries:

http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Group_Int ... _0907.html

Yet closing profitable refineries rather than just not investing in more of them is still a distinction worth making.

Closing refineries and the possibly deliberate mess in Iraq could feed into the same motive. Below is a quote from Jeff Wells.

Oil? Under the occupation, Iraqi output has been reduced to a trickle. So what? The US has no immediate need for it. The objective was to steal it from potential adversaries. So again, mission acomplished. But that was secondary to the provision of bases for future aggression in the heart of the Middle East, which conveniently replaced those the US abandoned in Saudi Arabia. (Yes, the same bases which Osama bin Laden had demanded the US abandon. Talk about a quid pro quo.)

I'm not suggesting the neoconservatives are the only players, or even the most important. But they are the change agents. They see catastrophe as a necessary precursor to imperial makeover. To them, everything's going swimmingly, albeit in blood.

I suspect, and I've written, that on a deeper level the neoconservatives are themselves being played, in order to bankrupt and bleed and crash the system to effect a Global Year Zero. And those players are also working some mighty fine chaos magick.


I cant see the whole picture but the oil business is a gateway into the minds of some of the powerful "players" as Jeff calls them.
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Postby JoseFreitas » Mon Nov 05, 2007 1:00 pm

In portuguese we have a saying, that "junta-se a fome com a vontade de comer", basically meaning that "hunger gets mixed with wanting to eat", where two slightly different things combine to make a bigger, more powerful whole. I think Peak Oil is something like that. It's happening, we can discuss whether the peak has already passed, or whether it's going to be in 5 or 15 years (this is the maximum frame I think it's going to happen), and lots of things will modify it; a recession may push off th peak for a few years, as demand slows and perhaps existing production can accomodate things, etc.... But at the same time... for oil companies, a bit of peak seems to be a very good business. As long as the price of oil goes up faster than they are required to invest to satisfy shareholders, and faster than their share prices fall as their reserves are shown to be shrinking (which will also ultimately trigger all sort of what may be relentless, merciless buyouts, mergers and takeovers). Clearly, oil at 100$ is a good thing for oil majors as long as this doesn't cause demand to collapse, and as long as their increased margin is not eaten up by increased costs. Thus, the reduction in investments is easily explained, even when some decisions seem to show that there is more oil than there is (ie. closing down profitable refineries, which may easily be reopened later). Still, there are economic elements here that are hard to understand and seem to send mixed messages.

As for geopolitics, oil in the ground now is like money in the bank, as long as you manage to insure that it will be yours later to use.
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Postby vigilant » Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:59 pm

from the above post:

Still, there are economic elements here that are hard to understand and seem to send mixed messages.


There is a "disconnect" between normal supply and demand curves, and the price of oil. It is caused by speculation in the "futures market"
Ralph Nader talks about it below...

Who Determines the Price of Oil?

RALPH NADER
Counterpunch
Wednesday November 7, 2007

Question of the day: who and what is determining the price of oil and your gasoline and home heating bills? Don't ask Uncle Sam, because George W. Bush and Dick Cheney are running a regime marinated in oil that does not issue reports which explain the real determinants of petroleum pricing beyond the conventional supply-demand curves.

First, let us create a historical framework to provide some background. In the good 'ole oil days, before the producer-countries' cartel in the Third World gained pricing power, there were seven giant oil companies called the 'seven sisters' led by Standard Oil (now Exxon) and Shell. As chronicled in Robert Engler's classic book, The Brotherhood of Oil, they were able to affect pricing through extra-market means. Economists called them a tight oligopoly.

OPEC later took their place at the table in the mid to late Seventies and set the price of crude oil at highly publicized meetings of the various member countries representatives from the Middle East, South America and Africa. Adjusting, 'seven sisters' concentrated their pricing and supply power downstream at the refining, pipeline and marketing levels.
Pricing power was never total but it was always complex, occurring in the interstices of an industry few outsiders understood, and fewer regulators could affect. Besides, natural gas was de-regulated between 1978 and 1993, after which its prices really took off.

Today, a third party has moved to the table-the New York Mercantile Exchange, a similar operates in London and a new one in Dubai. There, boisterous traders buy and sell futures contracts on the delivery of oil. But as Ben Mezrich, the author of the new book Rigged said recently, the dollar amounts of these futures contracts are far far larger than the actual oil deliveries they represent as they turn over and over at the Mercantile Exchange.

So now the critical resource of oil is driven by speculation at ever higher abstract electronic levels of futures trading. Increasingly, the distance becomes greater and greater between this abstract trading (fueled by rumors of storms in the Gulf of Mexico, or some possible political turmoil in a region of the world, or some other frightful excuse for bidding up) and the physical supply and demand for oil and its refined products.

These oil gamblers in New York and London try to justify their frenetic daily bidding by saying that these futures markets provide liquidity, and a clear price for oil. Alright, but who benefits when, how and where?

Certainly, the strain between physical supply and demand in recent years does not explain such extreme volatility. With OPEC countries down to supplying only 40 percent of the world production, Chinese demand for oil growing fast, and the expansion of production by Saudi Arabia and others to meet this demand, crude oil supplies are not tight enough to explain such pricing behavior.

Old factors like inadequate oil company investment in refinery capacity, longer down times for repairs than some observers believe necessary, and the slumping dollar are factors that western governments, especially the Bush regime, have not wanted to investigate. After all, with consumers paying sky-high prices for these fuels, free market theorists are supposed to expect expanded supplies from recoverable reserves to grow. But, of course, the global market for oil is anything but a free market from the producers- both corporate and governmental- toward the downstream companies to the consumers.

In recent days, the price of crude oil escalated to over $90 a barrel, fluctuating up to a high of $96 a barrel. Yet the average price of gasoline in the United States-around $3.00 per gallon-is about what it was earlier this year when the price of crude oil was around $60 a barrel. Why the disconnect?

"It's a big gambling hall," The Washington Post quotes Fadel Gheit, an oil analyst at Oppenheimer. "This time it's just speculation," Peter C. Fusaro, chairman of Global Change Associates, told the Post, adding, "There's a large bet out there that prices will continue to trend higher. But it's detached from fundamentals because there's no shortage of oil."

Meanwhile, the government of Big Oil runs Washington, D.C. It thumbed its nose at pleas from then Chairman of the powerful Finance Committee, Senator Charles Grassley (R-Iowa) who asked the major companies, swimming in massive profits, to contribute some charitable dollars to help the poor pay for their winter home heating bills, and has smugly watched the major Presidential candidates avoid the subject in their debates and declarations.

Oil companies seem to spend more executive effort looking for oil by merging with other companies (note the unchallenged merger of Exxon and Mobil under the Clinton administration) than with developing efficient oil-producing and consuming technology or expanding their solar energy subsidiaries.

So long as the price of crude oil is set by speculators on trading floors, so long as the oil-indentured politicians are not challenged by new candidates standing tall for people and environments, so long as we do not protest for change and press ourselves to prevent wasteful habits and uses, get ready for higher oil prices.
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Postby ninakat » Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:03 pm

The peak oil crisis: Wall Street comes to reality
by Tom Whipple

The day was a long time in coming. For many months now, world oil production has remained essentially flat and world oil exports have fallen while world oil prices just climbed and climbed. Poor country after poor country was priced out of the market and world oil stockpiles started to melt. Yet as the world lurched towards the mother of all economic crises, the major media of the country led by Wall Street’s own Journal remained strangely silent.

From time to time they would report some good news such as “billions of barrels found 25,000 ft under the Gulf” or “steaming out sticky oil will save us.” However, they never got around to asking what is involved in extracting oil from deepwater wells or just where all that tar-melting steam was coming from. Anyone who questioned that oil production could keep on growing for the foreseeable future was castigated as lunatic fringe.

This make-believe world finally came crashing down on Monday when the Wall Street Journal published a front-page story admitting there was a big, big problem with oil production just ahead. Now the flagship of economic journalism does not come to such a decision lightly. To admit that you have been dead wrong in ignoring the most important economic issue the world is likely to face in the next century certainly strains your journalistic credibility.

There must have been hours of agonized meetings in the offices of senior Journal editors as they hashed out just how to break the news that world oil production was about to peak without admitting that the world is arriving at peak oil.

The solution turned out to be rather ingenious. Write a story about a new kind of “plateauing oil” that has just been recognized while continuing to bash the old “peak oil.” Sophistry? Of course, but it enables the Journal to maintain that all-important face.

The title of the Journal’s story sets the stage “OIL OFFICIALS SEE LIMIT LOOMING ON PRODUCTION.” The first sentence carries the message “A growing number of oil-industry chieftains are endorsing an idea long deemed fringe: The world is approaching a practical limit to the number of barrels of crude oil that can be pumped every day.”

There you have it. The story is not portrayed as “evidence is growing that world oil production will soon go into decline.” It turns out that the real news is that an increasing number of oil-industry leaders are afraid that the world is approaching “a practical limit” on oil production. “Practical limit” is a nice touch which sweeps a number of issues under the rug.

To give the Journal its due, right up front they lay out the magnitude of the problem - “The world certainly won't run out of oil any time soon. And plenty of energy experts expect sky-high prices to hasten the development of alternative fuels and improve energy efficiency. But evidence is mounting that crude-oil production may plateau before those innovations arrive on a large scale. That could set the stage for a period marked by energy shortages, high prices and bare-knuckled competition for fuel.”

After so much honesty the Journal, unfortunately, falls back into its old ways by attempting to make a distinction between what it is telling us as news and the old “peak oil theory.” The following paragraph from the Journal’s story is a gem.

“The current debate represents a significant twist on an older, often-derided notion known as the peak-oil theory. Traditional peak-oil theorists, many of whom are industry outsiders or retired geologists, have argued that global oil production will soon peak and enter an irreversible decline because nearly half the available oil in the world has been pumped. They've been proved wrong so often that their theory has become debased.”

“Proved wrong so often?” “Debased”? As could be expected, peak oil adherents were apoplectic at these words. The web was instantly populated with reasoned refutations and charts which ask, “What on earth are they talking about?”

The answer probably is in the way large institutions such as the Journal pass important stories through layers of editors – not just to get the commas right but to insure political correctness from the paper’s perspective. The “debased” paragraph plays such a discordant note, it can only be a political afterthought from management.

The story then goes on to explain “plateauing” oil. “The new adherents...don't believe the global oil tank is at the half-empty point. But they share the belief that a global production ceiling is coming for other reasons: restricted access to oil fields, spiraling costs and increasingly complex oil-field geology. This will create a global production plateau, not a peak, they contend, with oil output remaining relatively constant rather than rising or falling.”

Once the story gets beyond the “face saving” it does a credible job in explaining why the world will soon be facing a major shortfall in oil production -- “The emergence of a production ceiling would mark a monumental shift in the energy world.” The “expanding pool of oil, most of it priced cheaply by today's standards, fueled the post-World War II global economic expansion.” “Since 1990, despite billions in new spending, the industry has found only one field with the potential to top 500,000 barrels a day.” “Some of the most promising geological formations are in locations that are inhospitable, for reasons of geography or, especially, politics and strife.” “Labor and construction bottlenecks also are making it difficult to develop proven fields.”

The Journal’s story marks an important turning point in the public’s understanding of peak oil. Now that the ice has been broken by the flagship of the financial press, it will not be long before others muster the courage to explore and discuss the ramifications of “plateauing” oil. This cannot be a bad thing for as the notion that we are entering the greatest paradigm shift of the last 100 years sinks in, people can start preparing for it.
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v

Postby vigilant » Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:22 pm

Murdoch buys the Wallstreet Journal, and now the journal is a Peak Oil scaremonger. How interesting. Yes oil may be a finite substance, but if people cannot see that production is being purposely cut back and regulated to drive up the price then they are not paying attention to the comments of the people that produce the oil. "True" supply and demand doesn't have as much to do with the price of a gallon of gasoline as most people think it does....If people knew more about "futures trading" they would understand how this game is played...
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Re: v

Postby ninakat » Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:46 pm

vigilant wrote:Murdoch buys the Wallstreet Journal, and now the journal is a Peak Oil scaremonger.


No, you didn't read the article, vigilant. The Wallstreet Journal is talking about an oil "plateau." They never used the term Peak Oil -- in fact, they had this statement in their article:

“The current debate represents a significant twist on an older, often-derided notion known as the peak-oil theory. Traditional peak-oil theorists, many of whom are industry outsiders or retired geologists, have argued that global oil production will soon peak and enter an irreversible decline because nearly half the available oil in the world has been pumped. They've been proved wrong so often that their theory has become debased.”


IMO, the WSJ is being forced to deal with reality, and they're doing it while trying to save face about all their past denials.

You know, everything isn't a conspiracy. Isn't it quite possible that Peak Oil is real AND the oil companies are purposely driving up the price? YES.

Deal with reality, or reality will deal with you.
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look for recent interviews with

Postby slow_dazzle » Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:10 pm

Matt Savinar, Jan Lundberg and Chris Srebowski (sp?).

They are floating around as mp3's. The one with Matt discusses the detention camps, the fact that we are 30 years too late to change course and geopolitics. It is over 100 megs but well worth d/loading. (It was a recent Coast to Coast interview)

The Srebowski interview discusses a paper produced for the German government very recently. It is scary because it is so sober and measured. Not a cauldron-stirring spell caster in sight (or earshot).

Peaking is not well understood, particularly so absent an understanding of how money as we create it works. But my humble opinion is we are fucked with a capital F because of the way our economies are corollaries to energy inputs. All the bad financial news we are reading daily is tied to energy supplies because money is energy.

If people harbour juvenile illusions about the Satanic elite conning us all so they can rool that's their problem. I have got out of debt because I know what's coming and it is hard times ahead folks. Anyone who doubts the warning signs is about to find out that PO is real the REALLY hard way.

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