Killing a robot

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Killing a robot

Postby nomo » Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:31 pm

This is strangely fascinating. And quite a bit disturbing too. But it's only a toy, right?


[url=http://www.boingboing.net/2007/12/05/killing-a-pleo-robot.html#comments]Killing a Pleo robotic dinosaur -- video
[/url]
(BoingBoing + comments)

Image

Ugobe sent me a Pleo robotic baby dinosaur to play with for two weeks, and my two daughters have fallen in love with it. They dress the $350 toy in doll clothes, give it naps in their beds, set a plate for it at dinnertime, and generally treat it like they would a kitten.

The press materials that came with the Pleo suggested I hold it by its tail to see what happens. It screams and thrashes. My 4-year-old started crying. I had to promise my wife never to do that again in front of her.

I'm impressed with the robot's behavior. It snuggles when you hold it. It falls asleep when you cradle it. It gets frisky when you scratch it under the chin. It's much more lifelike than Sony's discontinued Aibo.

So when I watched this video of a couple of guys from Dvice torturing the Pleo and making it whimper pathetically, I felt uncomfortable, even though I knew it was absolutely ridiculous to feel that way.

My wife didn't want to watch the video. She said that even though the Pleo was incapable of feeling anything, watching the video is "bad for your psyche," and that the people who hit the Pleo were damaging their pscyhes, too.

I'm reminded of story in one of my favorite books, The Mind's I: Fantasies and Reflections on Self & Soul, edited by Douglas R. Hofstadter and Daniel C. Dennett. It was called The Soul of Mark III Beast, and it's a chapter from a novel called The Soul of Anna Klane, by Terrel Miedaner. The excerpt is about about a robotic beetle programmed to run away from danger. Here's an excerpt of the excerpt:

Dirksen picked up the hammer again, quickly raised it and brought it back down in a smooth arc which struck the helpless machine off-center, damaging one of its wheels and flipping it right side up again. There was a metallic scraping sound from the damaged wheel, and the beast began spinning in a fitful circle. A snapping sound came from its underbelly; the machine stopped, lights glowing dolefully.

Dirksen pressed her lips together tightly, raised the hammer for a final blow. But as she started to bring it down there came from within the beast a sound, a soft crying wail the rose up and fell like a baby whimpering. Dirksen dropped the hammer and stepped back, her eyes on the blood-red pool of lubricating fluid forming on the table beneath the creature. She looked at hunt horrified. "It's... it's-"

"Just a machine," Hunt said, seriously now. "Like these, its evolutionary predecessors." His gesturing hands took in the array of machinery in the workshop around them, mute and menacing watchers. "But unlike them it can sense its own doom and cry out for succor."

"Turn it off," she said flatly.

Hunt walked to the table, tried to move its tiny power switch. "You've jammed it, I'm afraid." He picked up the hammer from the floor where it had fallen. "Care to administer the death blow?"

She stepped back, shaking her head as Hunt raised the hammer. "Couldn't you fix-" There was a brief metallic crunch. She winced, turned her head. The wailing had stopped, and they returned upstairs in silence
.

Link
Last edited by nomo on Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Jeff » Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:44 pm

Fascinating. I also find it fascinating I don't want to watch the video.

Some comments:

By XXXX at 9:34 PM

Wow, I totally just did the same tests to my cat, and what do you know, he died too! Stupid cat.

By Roboman at 9:35 PM

The interesting thing about the Pleo and it's very advanced AI program is that it does remember how you treat it! It’s future behaviors will be shaped by the way you interact with it!

By AJ at 11:07 PM

OMG! It's weird if I think this is horrible? I know it's a machine and all but knowing that it can "remember" how you treat it! I think its cruelty
Don't do this again please
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Postby Et in Arcadia ego » Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:51 pm

Jeff wrote:I also find it fascinating I don't want to watch the video.


You noticed that too, eh?

We're truly strange beings..
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Postby FourthBase » Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:53 pm

Not personally bothered by that in the slightest. It's a robot. Period. But I'm disturbed by the fact that people find it disturbing, and either take delight or express pity. I do agree with the woman who said torturing the robot and even just watching such robot torture is bad for the psyche. I wish that notion got more play around here. What really bothered me personally if anything was the Ziplock ad that preceded the video. That was 100,000 times more disturbing than the robot torture.
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Postby KeenInsight » Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:06 pm

No wonder robots will hate humans in the future. As if the fiction depicting it is not enough of a warning? (I.E., Terminator, Matrix, A.I., I Robot).

I think there will likely be a point in time where Robots will become sophisticated enough where they can be defined as having "consciousness" or the likeness of a soul (Ghost In The Shell). I can't imagine what Humanity would do when that happens. Now I'm just thinking too much.

Anyways, even though that robot is a set of simple programs, it's the act of torturing that was disturbing. People do the same exact thing to animals for fun.
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Postby Brighid_Moon » Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:06 pm

I think the psychology behind not being able to watch the movie, or for that matter empathizing with a robot is fascinating. Perhaps it has something to do with an innate nurturing mechanism which keeps us able to reproduce and tend to our young. Some people have this empathy more than others.

On another thought, how can this instinct be used against us? How is it being used against us?

ps: I can't watch either! :oops:
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Pleo's no Alf

Postby marmot » Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:21 pm

Hey, sorry, Pleo's no Alf or Haley Joel Osment!

ImageImage

I found that I didn't want to watch the video either...
And I'd rather have an old plush Alf toy that will play my old Pink Floyd cassettes over this robot dinasaur any day!

[on edit and after being reminded by Ianeye's post below, maybe I was thinking of a Teddy Ruxpin that could play my Floyd audio cassettes...]
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Postby IanEye » Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:43 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teddy_Ruxpin

Image


A normal (non-Teddy) cassette tape is designed for stereo playback with two distinct tracks on each side for the left and right speakers. In contrast, a Teddy Ruxpin cassette uses the two tracks differently: the left track contains the audio, while the right track encodes the toy's movements. A special hole in the top of the cassette tells the teddy bear that the right track contains movement data. This hole is similar to a standard cassette's write protection notch, but closer to the center. If the notch is not present, the player assumes that a normal cassette is being played, and avoids interpreting the right track as movements (which would cause the bear to malfunction, as it is not designed to translate the audio levels in a standard audio book into jaw movements). Normal stereo tape decks use this notch to detect a high bias cassette.


in '87 my eight year old sister had a Teddy Ruxpin, I had a Tascam four track. I "possessed" Teddy quite frequently and had Teddy tell my sister to do all sorts of awful things to her Barbies. Jello Biafra would also frequently possess teddy and tell my sister to "Kill The Poor".......
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I wish this notion got more play around here too

Postby annie aronburg » Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:22 pm

FourthBase wrote: I do agree with the woman who said torturing the robot and even just watching such robot torture is bad for the psyche. I wish that notion got more play around here.


Watching any torture is bad for the psyche.

more on robot torture here: http://srl.org/

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And this was scarcely odd, because
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Postby IanEye » Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:30 pm

Watching any torture is bad for the psyche.


so, is working in an Emergency Room bad for the psyche? The wounded people arriving there are in lots of pain. In other words, is it the actual act of watching people being tortured (and presumably not stopping it) that is harmful to the psyche, or just witnessing people in pain in general?


Also, i give special dispensation to those who work in FAO Schwartz and have to listen to that same fucking song all day at work. They can torture toys all they want......
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Postby FourthBase » Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:37 pm

IanEye wrote:
Watching any torture is bad for the psyche.


so, is working in an Emergency Room bad for the psyche? The wounded people arriving there are in lots of pain. In other words, is it the actual act of watching people being tortured (and presumably not stopping it) that is harmful to the psyche, or just witnessing people in pain in general?


The fundamental difference is that the damage is being cured/soothed in an ER, not caused. And it's not recreational, it's necessary. It's not just the pain, it's the WHY. That said, working in an ER must be pretty damned traumatic nonetheless. But it's not comparable to watching torture (even simulated torture, maybe especially simulated torture since the fact that it's simulated allows one's psychic guard to be let down), not even in the same ballpark.

But...

Also, i give special dispensation to those who work in FAO Schwartz and have to listen to that same fucking song all day at work. They can torture toys all they want......


...I concur. :lol:
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that fills you up and makes you naturally want to do your best.” - Bill Russell
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Pain Teens

Postby annie aronburg » Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:49 pm

is it the actual act of watching people being tortured (and presumably not stopping it) that is harmful to the psyche, or just witnessing people in pain in general?


Both.

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"O Oysters," said the Carpenter,
"You've had a pleasant run!
Shall we be trotting home again?'
But answer came there none--
And this was scarcely odd, because
They'd eaten every one.
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Postby Sepka » Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:30 pm

Jeff wrote:By AJ at 11:07 PM
OMG! It's weird if I think this is horrible? I know it's a machine and all but knowing that it can "remember" how you treat it! I think its cruelty
Don't do this again please


I kind of wonder the same thing. It tries to avoid or escape from situations that might damage it. It remembers what was done to it, and uses that memory to avoid distress in the future. It obviously has no sense of self, but then neither do insects. I'm not seeing any glaringly obvious moral differences between torturing a Pleo, and torturing insects.

Regarding the excerpt from "The Soul of Anna Klane", I'm quite sure that a similar experiment was actually carried out in the late 60s / early 70s. I recall reading about it at the time, probably in Psychology Today.

And I have no intention of watching the video, as I already know how I'd react.
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Postby Seamus OBlimey » Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:21 pm

Sepka wrote:It obviously has no sense of self, but then neither do insects. I'm not seeing any glaringly obvious moral differences between torturing a Pleo, and torturing insects.


Still pulling legs off spiders, are you?

I watched the video and found it mildly amusing. Clever programming, but it's a machine FFS!

I know some folks get emtionally attached to their Cars but Are Friends Electric?
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Postby wintler2 » Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:28 pm

I can think myself into not caring by repeatedly reminding myself its not alive. I didn't watch the video because i resent the deception of a machine faking life, same reason i sabotaged my daughters Furby ('interactive' speech recognising toy).

We've had 100 of 1000s of yrs of relationship with living things, robots are too new for us to automaticly remember that not everything thats looks alive is, no matter how well it mimics. I have no problem seeing robots as vastly inferior and less desirable, given their dependence on cheap energy and ubercapitalism.
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