Map baffles researchers.

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Map baffles researchers.

Postby slimmouse » Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:06 am

I cant remember whether or not Jeff posted something about this recently. ( I did a quick search, but couldnt find anything - if I missed it I apologise ) I posted it cos of something chiggerbit said, about America having been described as manifest destiny - I have highlighted the interesting part of this article which puts this into some kind of perspective perhaps ?

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The only surviving copy of the 500-year-old map that first used the name America goes on permanent display this month at the Library of Congress, but even as it prepares for its debut, the 1507 Waldseemuller map remains a puzzle for researchers.


Why did the mapmaker name the territory America and then change his mind later? How was he able to draw South America so accurately? Why did he put a huge ocean west of America years before European explorers discovered the Pacific?

"That's the kind of conundrum, the question, that is still out there," said John Hebert, chief of the geography and map division of the Library of Congress.

The 12 sheets that make up the map, purchased from German Prince Johannes Waldburg-Wolfegg for $10 million in 2003, were mounted on Monday in a huge 6-foot by 9.5-foot (1.85 meter by 2.95 meter) display case machined from a single block of aluminum.

The case will be flooded with inert argon gas to prevent deterioration when it goes on public display December 13.

Researchers are hopeful that putting the rarely shown map on permanent display for the first time since it was discovered in the Waldburg-Wolfegg castle archives in 1901 may stimulate interest in finding out more about the documents used to produce it.

The map was created by the German monk Martin Waldseemuller. Thirteen years after Christopher Columbus first landed in the Western Hemisphere, the Duke of Lorraine brought Waldseemuller and a group of scholars together at a monastery in Saint-Die in France to create a new map of the world.

The result, published two years later, is stunningly accurate and surprisingly modern.

"The actual shape of South America is correct," said Hebert. "The width of South America at certain key points is correct within 70 miles of accuracy."

Given what Europeans are believed to have known about the world at the time, it should not have been possible for the mapmakers to produce it, he said.

The map gives a reasonably correct depiction of the west coast of South America. But according to history, Vasco Nunez de Balboa did not reach the Pacific by land until 1513, and Ferdinand Magellan did not round the southern tip of the continent until 1520.

"So this is a rather compelling map to say, 'How did they come to that conclusion,"' Hebert said.

The mapmakers say they based it on the 1,300-year-old works of the Egyptian geographer Ptolemy as well as letters Florentine navigator Amerigo Vespucci wrote describing his voyages to the new world. But Hebert said there must have been something more.

"From the writings of Vespucci you couldn't have prepared the map," Hebert said. "There had to be something cartographic with it."


MISGIVINGS ABOUT AMERICA

Waldseemuller made it clear he was naming the new land after Vespucci, describing how he came up with the name America based on the navigator's first name.

But he soon had misgivings about what he had done. An atlas Waldseemuller produced six years later shows only part of the east coast of the Americas, and refers to it as Terra Incognita -- unknown land.

"America has gone out of his lexicon," Hebert said. "(No) place in the atlas -- in the text or in the maps -- does the name America appear."

His 1516 mariner's map, on the same scale as the 1507 map, steps back even further, showing only parts of the new continents and reconnecting the north to Asia. South America is labeled Terra Nova -- New World -- and North America is labeled Terra de Cuba -- Land of Cuba.

"Essentially he's reconnecting North America to the Asian mainland, suggesting a continual world of land mass rather than separated by those bodies of water that separate us from Europe and Asia," Hebert said.

Why the rollback? No one knows.

In writings accompanying the 1516 map, Waldseemuller comes across as if he "has seen the better of his error and is now correcting it," Hebert said.

He speculated that power politics played a role. Spain and Portugal divided the globe between them in 1494, two years after Columbus, with territory to the east going to Portugal and land to the west to Spain.

That demarcation line is oddly absent from the 1507 Waldseemuller map, and flags marking territorial claims in South America suggest Portugal controls the region's southernmost land, even though it is in Spain's area of influence. On the later map, the southernmost flag is Spanish, Hebert said.

"It is possible one could say the 1507 map is influenced strongly by Portuguese sources and conceivably the 1516 map may be influenced more by Spanish sources," he said.

Although the map conceals many mysteries, one thing is clear: it represents a revolutionary shift in the way Europe viewed the world.

"This is ... essentially the beginning or first map of the modern age, and it's one that everything builds on from that point forward," Hebert said. "It becomes a keystone map."

Link ;

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071203/ts_nm/usa_map_dc
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Postby Jeff » Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:16 am

Thanks, I hadn't seen that and I don't remember a post about the map here.

Here's another mystery: I just searched for a story about the map on youtube and I found this, posted last week. (Warning, not safe for workplace. Seriously.) WTF? :shock: (On edit: I see now the story is from the third, and the video was posted on the fourth, so that makes a little more sense.)
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1507 waldseemuller map

Postby marmot » Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:30 am

Jeff wrote: this


Oooo! To my eyes this 'map' has got the shape of things right!

On the 'real' map. It appears they've drawn America rather slim:

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Postby NeonLX » Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:33 am

Sorta kinda related question: has there been any discussion on this forum re: the original settling of "the Americas"? I remember reading some articles a few years back stating that there's evidence of earlier settlers than the proto-"indians" and that there are even a few ancient skulls that look decidedly non-"Indian"...
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Re: 1507 waldseemuller map

Postby Jeff » Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:34 am

marmot wrote:On the 'real' map. It appears they've drawn America rather slim:


Still, South America looks remarkably like South America. A European in 1507 shouldn't have gotten it that right.
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Postby Et in Arcadia ego » Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:38 am

There's more than one ancient map that monkey-wrenches conventionally accepted history.

The Piri Reis map drives the cartographers nuts trying to understand how the maker was able to plot a coastline buried under ice at least 6,000 years old:

Image

http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_1.htm
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Postby slimmouse » Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:49 am

Jeff wrote:Thanks, I hadn't seen that and I don't remember a post about the map here.



I was trying to think where I had read about this. Now ,Im pretty sure it is mentioned in sweet tooths offerings of MOTM in the Data dump.

Too much input lol.
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Postby Brentos » Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:52 pm

Really interesting stuff. There is the Welsh legend of Prince Madoc, who sailed to the west and discovered a beautiful land (SE coast of the US) and settled there in the 12th century.
There is even the story of explorers finding 'welsh speaking indians' believed to be descendents of the welsh settlers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madoc#The_Welsh_Indians

Perhaps some of the tales are due to cultural elitism with the explorers trying to rationalise the complexity of the culture they saw in some of the indian tribes, but who knows.
There is also the partial mystery of the the 'Melungeons' of the Appalachia/SE US, who had/have a distinct look too them, having caucasian features and even blue eyes, but darker skin:

Image

Lincoln was believed to be a Melungeon too, though using that term is considered racist nowadays. They are probably not related to any proto-european settlement, but rather early tri racial mixing, but still interesting.


NeonLX wrote:Sorta kinda related question: has there been any discussion on this forum re: the original settling of "the Americas"? I remember reading some articles a few years back stating that there's evidence of earlier settlers than the proto-"indians" and that there are even a few ancient skulls that look decidedly non-"Indian"...



I think you are referring to the aboriginal bones & skulls found in south america dating back to 50,000 years ago, believed to be pacific settlers, pre-dating the siberian bridge settlers.
There are still some descendents in chile iirc, who show aboriginal traits.
Last edited by Brentos on Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby NeonLX » Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:11 pm

Brentos wrote:
NeonLX wrote:Sorta kinda related question: has there been any discussion on this forum re: the original settling of "the Americas"? I remember reading some articles a few years back stating that there's evidence of earlier settlers than the proto-"indians" and that there are even a few ancient skulls that look decidedly non-"Indian"...



I think you are referring to the aboriginal bones & skulls found in south america dating back to 50,000 years ago, believed to be pacific settlers, pre-dating the siberian bridge settlers.
There are still some descendents in chile iirc, who show aboriginal traits.


Yeah, that's ringing a bell. You gotta wonder how they got to South America 50,000 years ago...
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Postby Brentos » Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:24 pm

NeonLX wrote:
Brentos wrote:
NeonLX wrote:Sorta kinda related question: has there been any discussion on this forum re: the original settling of "the Americas"? I remember reading some articles a few years back stating that there's evidence of earlier settlers than the proto-"indians" and that there are even a few ancient skulls that look decidedly non-"Indian"...



I think you are referring to the aboriginal bones & skulls found in south america dating back to 50,000 years ago, believed to be pacific settlers, pre-dating the siberian bridge settlers.
There are still some descendents in chile iirc, who show aboriginal traits.


Yeah, that's ringing a bell. You gotta wonder how they got to South America 50,000 years ago...


Yep, skilled navigators and shipbuilders no doubt, or a bunch of crazy people who decided to just keep on paddling.
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Postby Stephen Morgan » Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:34 pm

NeonLX wrote:Sorta kinda related question: has there been any discussion on this forum re: the original settling of "the Americas"? I remember reading some articles a few years back stating that there's evidence of earlier settlers than the proto-"indians" and that there are even a few ancient skulls that look decidedly non-"Indian"...


You mean the pre-Clovis peoples, the idea that Kennebunkport man, was it?, and the original settlers were white and blonde (as were the ancient Egyptians, under those wigs). No, I've not seen anything about that here.

Keel mentions a blonde people supposedly hidden away in the US in pre-Columbian times whose eyes were too sensitive fo rhtem to go out in daylight.

These theories generally rely on sea-borne diffusion or Atlantis. Perhaps the infinite galleries under Asia which are though to stretch to the Americas took blonde people through too.

I've not seen anything about the origins of the name "America" in the name of the goddess "Amaracu", either.
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Excellent find slim

Postby slow_dazzle » Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:39 pm

I have read a lot of Graham Hancock's work and I have always found much of what he posits really interesting. There is a fine line between the Atlantis type of mythology and more tangible evidence. The mapping, though, might be tangible evidence of a different version of how societies evolved to the one we have been taught.

I am familiar with the map that eiAe posted. That alone is mind boggling; Hancock has covered the matter and his narrative is worth reading.

This is much more than an "oooh" curiosity thing and it would be worth adding more of the same ilk to this thread. If the version of how the world took shape is markedly different to the one taught in the history books a couple of good questions arise. The most obvious one is does anyone know the official version is not correct?

I feel the need to look at Hancock's work again. He has a good website BTW
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Postby NeonLX » Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:28 pm

Stephen Morgan wrote:
NeonLX wrote:Sorta kinda related question: has there been any discussion on this forum re: the original settling of "the Americas"? I remember reading some articles a few years back stating that there's evidence of earlier settlers than the proto-"indians" and that there are even a few ancient skulls that look decidedly non-"Indian"...


You mean the pre-Clovis peoples, the idea that Kennebunkport man, was it?, and the original settlers were white and blonde (as were the ancient Egyptians, under those wigs). No, I've not seen anything about that here.



No, nothing like that--I don't remember skin color/race coming up, but the finds in South America I read about were thought to be quite old, and the skeletal remains seemed different than what was considered the usual for the ancestors of "native Americans".

I feel like I may have stepped in something here...
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Postby Attack Ships on Fire » Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:29 pm

NeonLX wrote:Sorta kinda related question: has there been any discussion on this forum re: the original settling of "the Americas"? I remember reading some articles a few years back stating that there's evidence of earlier settlers than the proto-"indians" and that there are even a few ancient skulls that look decidedly non-"Indian"...


I remember reading about the Moundbuilders, which was supposed to be a catch-for-all term used to describe whomever constructed the earthworks by pre-American Indian tribes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mound_builder_%28people%29

The really fascinating thing is how history ignores things like the Piri Reis and Waldseemuller maps plus other fragments of evidence that tell us the official record is off. Does any other field of science refuse to acknowledge evidence and not incorporate it into working theories? Imagine if a new kind of star or cell were found and astronomers/biologists just ignored its existence because it raised questions about if they got the rest of it right. It really appears to be an actual conspiracy of ignorance.
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Postby Et in Arcadia ego » Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:41 pm

Attack Ships on Fire wrote:Does any other field of science refuse to acknowledge evidence and not incorporate it into working theories? Imagine if a new kind of star or cell were found and astronomers/biologists just ignored its existence because it raised questions about if they got the rest of it right.


Actually, Astronomy has had some pretty nasty infightings and theory rejection. Off the top of my head, the one that stands out the most was when Eddington infamously stated something to the effect that Black Holes were an offensive notion and if they actually existed, then they shouldn't.

Pretty frigging pretentious, and there's way more where that came from.

But the most irritating by far is the Anthropology/Archeology's patent denial of advanced ancient civilizations.
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