Hersh: children raped at Abu Ghraib, Pentagon has videos [

[NavnDansk]

Hersh: children raped at Abu Ghraib, Pentagon has videos


From Daily Kos' partial transcript of a video (link to REAL stream) of Seymour Hersh speaking at an ACLU event. He says the US government has videotapes of children being raped at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.

"
Some of the worst things that happened you don't know about, okay? Videos, um, there are women there. Some of you may have read that they were passing letters out, communications out to their men. This is at Abu Ghraib ... The women were passing messages out saying 'Please come and kill me, because of what's happened' and basically what happened is that those women who were arrested with young boys, children in cases that have been recorded. The boys were sodomized with the cameras rolling. And the worst above all of that is the soundtrack of the boys shrieking that your government has. They are in total terror. It's going to come out."


Link (via Warren). There's also a piece worth reading in this week's Newsweek about new allegations of rape and sexual torture at Abu Ghraib. Feature includes details on the identities of the Iraqi prisoners shown in those widely-circulated photographs -- including Satar Jabar (charged with carjacking, not terrorism), whose iconic hooded figure with wires attached is derisively described by many Iraqis as the "Statue of Liberty." Link


Update: Geraldine Sealey at Salon on Hersh's remarks:


After Donald Rumsfeld testified on the Hill about Abu Ghraib in May, there was talk of more photos and video in the Pentagon's custody more horrific than anything made public so far. "If these are released to the public, obviously it's going to make matters worse," Rumsfeld said. Since then, the Washington Post has disclosed some new details and images of abuse at the prison. But if Seymour Hersh is right, it all gets much worse. (...)


Notes from a similar speech Hersh gave in Chicago in June were posted on Brad DeLong's blog. Rick Pearlstein, who watched the speech, wrote: "[Hersh] said that after he broke Abu Ghraib people are coming out of the woodwork to tell him this stuff. He said he had seen all the Abu Ghraib pictures. He said, 'You haven't begun to see evil...' then trailed off. He said, 'horrible things done to children of women prisoners, as the cameras run.' He looked frightened."

There are several questions here: Has Hersh actually seen the video he described to the ACLU, and why hasn't he written about it yet? Will he be forced to elaborate in more public venues now that these two speeches are getting so much attention, at least in the blogosphere? And who else has seen the video, if it exists -- will journalists see and report on it? did senators see these images when they had their closed-door sessions with the Abu Ghraib evidence? -- and what is being done about it?

Link to Salon item.

Update 2: BB guestbar alum Russ Kick of Memory Hole reminds us of a post he made in May about the type of as-yet-unreleased evidence Hersh is presumably discussing. Here, Russ quotes Republican Senator Lindsay Graham: "The American public needs to understand, we're talking about rape and murder here. We're not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience. We're talking about rape and murder and some very serious charges."

Update 3: BoingBoing reader Lars has an update from Germany -- some European media perspective on the allegations:

"Report Mainz" is a German TV show/magazine of the SWR (Sudwest-Rundfunk = South-West broadcasting). "Report Mainz" reported already on 5th July 2004 about the potential abuse of children in Abu Ghraib. (Link). A video (in German) of the feature is available at the page (Link to streaming Real file). You can see interviews with persons who testify that they have seen children arrested in Abu Ghraib and who have seen and have heard of a boy and a 12 year old girl terrified (cold water and mud were spilled over them) by guards or military personal. The boy and the girl were then used to terrify their also arrested parents who were willing to cooperate after seeing their children terrified by the guards/military personnel.

Another TV show/magazine covered the issue too: "Kulturzeit", of the German-Austrian-Swiss broadcaster "3Sat" (Link). The main theme in these features is the concern about the fact that children are arrested and that they are used to apply pressure on their parents."


UPDATE: Evidence to support Hersh's claims in the Taguba Report? Link

http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.ph ... o=21&part=

Don't worry the truth will get out and Bush and Cheney will be impeached...just a question of time...

[professorpan]

I posted about this when it first came out:

http://rigorousintuition.ca/board/viewtopic.php?t=3268

There is no circle of Hell hot enough for those who torture children.

[8bitagent]

1. Of course the US government would have kids being raped. Abu Gharib and Gitmo as has been revealed are nothing more than high level mind control experiment centers in trauma based compartmentalization.
Monarch activities do not surprise me

The scandal of Abu Gharib was such a limited hangout white wash, why hasnt this come out in the mainstream?
Sy Hersh helped expose that Abu Gharib was part of a high level chain of command program called "Copper Green"

2. I still realllly hate DailyKos. They call 9/11 truthers crazy, yet
make claims that the government is raping kids. Both the claims of 9/11 truthers and the claims of child raping by the US government I believe are too be true, but DailyKos are full of leftgatekeeping hypocrites.

[geogeo]

Don't hate Daily KOS, just ignore them and recognize them for what they are. I am in awe of Abu Ghraib sort of like I am in awe of the Balrog and Sauron in the Lord of the Rings--it's such a friggin' evil thing, and yet it's so brilliant--it goes so, so far, and it was SOOO effective. A psy-op on many levels, but primarily, a brilliant way to humiliate the enemy--Arab Manhood--and I mean in the clever Sy Hersh leakages on top of the photos released. All cleverly and purposively staged. What people don't get about this sort of stuff is that IT WORKS, just like your Contra face-peeling )not a cosmetic treatment) and the stuff they did to commies in Mozambique, and so forth and so on.

As for Hersch, he openly admitted on the Daily Show one time that he has good contacts at the CIA who feed him information. This makes him feel important, it does, like he's doing the right thing. I remember very well the tangible horror projected by those who heard the full tapes, and I remember what they said was that this wasn't something that we should ever hear. We, the people, we're too easily affected, I guess. Only the Big Men can hear it. Then Hersch pushes it farther, in a sense taunting the Arab World, saying 'if you're not good, we're gonna air tape of your women and children being raped.' So the upstanding Arab leaders surely begged, and said no, we'll be good, just don't humiliate us any further.

Then Ghraib, sounds a bit like Rape anyway, doesn't it?

[8bitagent]

Don't hate Daily KOS, just ignore them and recognize them for what they are. I am in awe of Abu Ghraib sort of like I am in awe of the Balrog and Sauron in the Lord of the Rings--it's such a friggin' evil thing, and yet it's so brilliant--it goes so, so far, and it was SOOO effective. A psy-op on many levels, but primarily, a brilliant way to humiliate the enemy--Arab Manhood--and I mean in the clever Sy Hersh leakages on top of the photos released. All cleverly and purposively staged. What people don't get about this sort of stuff is that IT WORKS, just like your Contra face-peeling )not a cosmetic treatment) and the stuff they did to commies in Mozambique, and so forth and so on.

As for Hersch, he openly admitted on the Daily Show one time that he has good contacts at the CIA who feed him information. This makes him feel important, it does, like he's doing the right thing. I remember very well the tangible horror projected by those who heard the full tapes, and I remember what they said was that this wasn't something that we should ever hear. We, the people, we're too easily affected, I guess. Only the Big Men can hear it. Then Hersch pushes it farther, in a sense taunting the Arab World, saying 'if you're not good, we're gonna air tape of your women and children being raped.' So the upstanding Arab leaders surely begged, and said no, we'll be good, just don't humiliate us any further.

Then Ghraib, sounds a bit like Rape anyway, doesn't it?

Yeah it does seem as if Sy Hersh is a tool, "thinking" he has altruistic Deep Throat 2.0's in the White House...when most likely it's Revelation of the Method.

Sy has "exposed" how Osama was intentionally let to escape from Tora Bora, how the neocons approved Israel's Lebanon offensive last summer,
how Abu Gharib was much more ghastly...

Now you'd think the left in America, who love any ammo they can to feign indignation at Bush, would LOVE really explosive stories.

The fact that the "Rudy in bed with al Qaeda financiers" story went nowhere, neither did the *real* reason for the CIA destroying the torture tapes...or this latest flap shows a lot of America suffers from major cognitive dissonance.

It seems, the spell of 9/11 has worked a little too well on Americans, even the up and arms liberal activists.

In what other bizarro world could proven Saudi/Pakistani involvement in 9/11, child rape at Abu, Bayer involvement in spreading AIDS, Dyncorp involved in massive child sex kidnapping rings, etc
fly right by the moral outrage of the liberals?

[blanc]

I don't like your praise phrases geo geo, 'so brilliant'.
those who perpetrate these kind of crimes need NO encouragement, NO sustenance.
there certainly were other ways to achieve objectives, and it is not 'Arab Manhood' which is humiliated, but us, all of us, in the West, it is our value system which has been trashed, our 'freedom' and 'democracy' which has been dragged in the dirt, our moral high ground which has been bulldozed.

[theeKultleeder]

Of course the US government would have kids being raped. Abu Gharib and Gitmo as has been revealed are nothing more than high level mind control experiment centers in trauma based compartmentalization.

Or rape and torture is a part of war and it always has been.

And its not just the US, or the Nazis, or whoever your favorite demon is. It is the psychology of warfare which spreads across all cultures, even into Alice's favorite culture.

Don't you think the lack of respect for human life is necessary for warfare?

"Kids being raped" was around long before guns were.

FUCK! Fucked up human nature and people in this day still can't figure out where the evil comes from!

[blanc]

Yes, TKL, unfortunately children have been raped in war before. But this is systemetised with approval from the highest command. Its cold blooded sadism, not the actions of out of control troops. We had conventions and international law to try to stop this kind of thing. Those have been ditched in 'freedom's name. Our shame.

[mentalgongfu2]

The scandal of Abu Gharib was such a limited hangout white wash, why hasnt this come out in the mainstream?

there was a very good episode of "This American Life" on NPR that included an interview segment with the soldier who found the infamous Abu Ghraib photos on a flash drive he borrowed from a buddy and ended up turning them in to MPs (or whatever they call military police/internal affairs these days) that led to the breaking of the story in the news.

I couldn't find a link, but I believe the name of the soldier is Joe Darby.
According to the interview, he initially tried to turn over the photos anonymously, but ended up having to become involved. The military promised his name would not be thrust into the limelight, and then Donny "unknown unknowns" Rumsfeld revealed his name under the guise of giving praise during the first press conference held regarding the scandal,. Darby's family then received death threats and were put under gov't protection. His deployment was ended due to the danger to his family, and they had to move and go underground.

[mentalgongfu2]

there certainly were other ways to achieve objectives,

yes

and it is not 'Arab Manhood' which is humiliated, but us, all of us, in the West, it is our value system which has been trashed, our 'freedom' and 'democracy' which has been dragged in the dirt, our moral high ground which has been bulldozed.

I say that it is both. The operations that have been made public, omitting from discussion the horrible things we can only imagine, have been designed according to existing cultural/moral standards to humiliate the victims. And because such horrors are done in our names, they also humiliate us.

[AlicetheKurious]

the Kultleeder said:

And its not just the US, or the Nazis, or whoever your favorite demon is. It is the psychology of warfare which spreads across all cultures, even into Alice's favorite culture.

No offense, buddy, but that's a really dumb thing to say.

FYI, my "favorite culture" is the culture of human rights, human dignity and the enforcement of international law to all, regardless of race, creed, sex or age. Any other "culture" falls far, far below that on my scale of favorites.

If I defend Arab culture, it's mainly because ignorance, malicious distortion and even some legitimate criticism are being used by evil, smug hypocrites to dehumanize the victims of American/Israeli imperialism so that they can be 'legitimately' denied the same rights that even the imperialists themselves call "human" rights.

I'm not a big fan of American "culture", but if anybody tried to argue that Americans, even torturers from Abu Gharib, should be treated the way those poor people are, or that American cities should be bombed the way cities in Iraq have been, or the way Lebanon was in 2006, I would oppose it with every fiber of my being.

FUCK! Fucked up human nature and people in this day still can't figure out where the evil comes from!

Trying to figure out whether evil comes from Satan or from human nature is a delightfully stimulating way to while away an idle afternoon. But if you can imagine yourself or your child in Abu Gharib, it becomes far more urgent to stop it by any means necessary.

That speech by Hersh was first published three years ago -- I can't believe he hasn't been pressed to specify exactly what he saw, where and when, and who else was there with him. I can't believe he hasn't been pinned down, nor that this is only being dragged out now, after all this time.

Three years...

These are indictable war crimes -- even if the U.S. has cynically passed laws giving its war criminals immunity, and even if the International Criminal Court probably won't be the venue for their trials, and even if the U.S. war criminals have forced 'friendly' regimes to pass laws granting Americans immunity, the principle of universal jurisdiction still applies to many, many other countries they haven't neutralized yet.

Hersh needs to stop being so coy, teasing us with hints and allegations while avoiding usable testimony and facts that would be valid in a court of law.

Otherwise, he's just bait.

[professorpan]

According to the interview, he initially tried to turn over the photos anonymously, but ended up having to become involved. The military promised his name would not be thrust into the limelight, and then Donny "unknown unknowns" Rumsfeld revealed his name under the guise of giving praise during the first press conference held regarding the scandal,. Darby's family then received death threats and were put under gov't protection. His deployment was ended due to the danger to his family, and they had to move and go underground.

If I remember correctly, he discovered he'd been "outed" by Rumsfeld as he was sitting IN THE DINING HALL with his fellow soldiers with the tv on.

Poor guy. He did really go through some hell for doing the right thing.

[geogeo]

This is a complex subject. I didn't mean to offend, but at times I find pure evil banal, at other times brilliant. Fascination with the dark side--doesn't mean I condone it. It is like our national fascination with Hannibal Lecter and his ilk. I think I am ok in using the term "brilliant", but please understand that this is in the sense of being in awe of my enemy.

I think you misunderstood my irony. In any case, pictures of naked Arab dudes doesn't have much shock value in the West (checked out any Internet porn lately?), but I contend that it does indeed offend Arab manhood-which is largely what is up in arms against us-and is of course, as TKL says, this is nothing but the latest installment of rape and humiliation that is part and parcel of war, and always has been. The difference today is too many Americans who somehow were raised in sheltered situations and believe lock, stock and barrel in American exceptionalism--that's the only difference. Oh yeah, and the fact that
Americans are always shocked anew at the false pretenses for every war, every intervention, as if there was one that was justified (perhaps, the War of 1812?). I believe we are still, if only subconsciously, wedded to the hope that the Greatest Generation was morally justifiable, that WWII was indeed a war worth fighting. Who knows?

[yathrib]

At first I thought Hersh was a hero, but now he's starting to piss me off. As Alice points out, these things he refers to are indictable war crimes, and if he knows about them, it's time to put up or shut up. Otherwise he's just a highbrow version of Alex Jones, et al.

I'd like him to be subpoenaed by the World Court, if they can do such a thing.

[blanc]

no, still dont like the praise geo. brilliant it aint.
awe? why, you think the acts of demeaning others and behaving barbarously to helpless captors is what, original? courageous? inventive? daring? subtle? scary in a thrilling way?
dont get the irony either - arab or anyone else, we're all human, all have human needs and human values and rights. put a different racial or national group in that situation, exactly how is it different?
banal I agree with. but then I dont find HL fascinating, and have heard expressed that serial killers are generally the most boring of people. Refute serial violence as an interesting or worthwhile way of using a life. Its trivial, uncreative, sensation driven,cowardly, demeaning and narrow.

maybe you are in awe because you think you could never do the same? that it somehow takes exceptional qualities to be exceptionally evil?