9/11 commissioner Philip Zelikow, mole for White House?

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9/11 commissioner Philip Zelikow, mole for White House?

Postby chiggerbit » Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:36 pm

This is pretty big news, which I'd be willing to bet doesn't make the news:

http://tinyurl.com/3x4l69


Former NSC aide denies political meddling
A book to be published next month contains an explosive allegation sure to call into question the independence of the 9/11 Commission: Its executive director secretly spoke with President Bush's close adviser Karl Rove and others within the White House while the ostensibly autonomous commission was completing its report.

Philip Zelikow, a former colleague of then-National Security Adviser Condoleeza Rice, was appointed executive director of the 9/11 Commission despite his close ties to the Bush White House, and he remained in regular contact with Rove while overseeing the commission, according to New York Times reporter Philip Shenon's new book, The Commission: The Uncensored History of the 9/11 Investigation. Shenon's book will not be released until Feb. 5, but author Max Holland purchased an audio copy of it at a New York bookstore and published a summary on his blog, Washington DeCoded.

"Shenon delivers a blistering account of Zelikow’s role and leadership, and an implicit criticism of the commissioners for appointing Zelikow in the first place—and then allowing him to stay on after his myriad conflicts-of-interest were revealed under oath," Holland writes.

Shenon, who led the Times coverage of the 9/11 Commission and still writes for the paper, based his book on myriad interviews with staffers and members of the commission, according to Holland. In addition to his ties to Rice and Rove, Zelikow had been the "architect" of a plan to demote Clinton-era counterterrorism czar Richard Clarke, who sounded the alarm about Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda months before the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks they perpetrated.

Zelikow "had laid the groundwork for much of what went wrong at the White House in the weeks and months before September 11. Would he want people to know that?" Shenon writes, according to Holland's summary.

Shenon also reports that Zelikow received at least two calls from Rove while serving as 9/11 Commission executive director, and he made numerous calls to the White House, Holland says.

Zelikow has not denied speaking to Rove, but he apparently claimed their conversations involved his old job as director of the University of Virginia's Miller Center of Public Affairs.

RAW STORY left messages at a phone and e-mail listing for Zelikow on the university's Web site Thursday morning; they were not immediately returned.

Criticism of Zelikow's ties to the Bush administration hounded him even as the commission was compiling its report, according to news archives.

"[C]ritics privately charge that Zelikow ... has deliberately soft-pedaled the inquiry to protect the administration, and in particular his close former colleague, national-security adviser Condoleezza Rice, whom he helped to establish a new, streamlined structure for the Bush National Security Council during the transition," wrote Shaun Waterman in an April 2004 article in the American Prospect. "They accuse him of plotting behind the scenes with Bush political supremo Karl Rove."

Widows of World Trade Center victims demanded Zelikow resign around the same time, when news emerged that Zelikow had participated in Bush administration transition briefings, but the commission's chairmen defended their executive director.

"Because he was one of the best experts on terrorism in the whole area of intelligence in the entire country, the same--they asked him to help the same reason we asked him to help," 9/11 Commission chairman Thomas Kean said on Meet the Press then. "We haven't found, I think, either Vice Chairman [Lee] Hamilton or myself, any evidence to indicate in any way that he's partial to anybody or anything."

Critics scoffed at that justification.

"His academic career focused on Cold War issues, from the Cuban missile crisis to the fall of the Soviet Union.... He is certainly not among the world's 'foremost experts' on al-Qaida, a topic on which he appears to have written nothing," wrote Salon's Joe Conason, "and he is very unlikely to have briefed the new administration on that threat."

In the book to be published next month, Shenon reports that Zelikow had promised to cease all communications with Bush administration officials after taking the 9/11 commission job, but Zelikow told ABC News this was not the case. Furthermore, he denied trying to hide his connections to the Bush administration from commission members.

"It was very well-known I had served on this transition team and had declined to go into the administration. I worked there for a total of one month. I had interviewed Sandy Berger, Dick Clarke and most of the NSC staff," he told ABC, noting he recused himself from work on the Commission report dealing with the NSC transition.

According to Holland's summary of Shenon's book, though, this apparently was not the case:

"Zelikow continued to insert himself into the work of 'Team 3,' the task force responsible for the most politically-sensitive part of the investigation, counter-terrorism policy. This brief encompassed the White House, which meant investigating the conduct of Condoleeza Rice and Richard Clarke during the months prior to 9/11. Team 3 staffers would come to believe that Zelikow prevented them from submitting a report that would have depicted Rice’s performance as 'amount[ing] to incompetence, or something not far from it.'"
Last edited by chiggerbit on Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 9/11 commissions co-director mole for White House?

Postby isachar » Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:21 pm

[quote="chiggerbit"]This is pretty big news, which I'd be willing to bet doesn't make the news:

http://tinyurl.com/3x4l69

Chig, thanks for posting this, though I doubt it's news to most reading RigInt.

Zelikow is just one of the key members/staff of the farcical 911 Whitewash Commission among whose members and staff many have been shown to have been compromised and/or complicit - either in the original 911 crimes, or their coverup.

A legitimate 911 investigation - a criminal investigation making use of forensics, traces the money, and obtains sworn testimony from all witnesses - including P, VP, SOD, Myers, etc., and FBI agents who aided and abetted the crimes and coverup, presented to a grand jury is what is required.

And to think that there are many here (including Jeff, I believe) who think the phony, farcical NIST investigation wasn't similarly compromised - though admittedly in a more 'technical' manner.

regards.
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Postby 8bitagent » Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:35 pm

At least Senator Graham had the balls to say Saudi Arabia was deeply involved in 9/11...as much as he too was a coverup artist.

A clear and open investigation into 9/11 would find elements of the following countries deeply involved:

US
Saudi Arabia
Pakistan
UK MI6/MI5
Dubai, UAE
Qatar
German BND
Sudan
Israel
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Postby Searcher08 » Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:08 pm

Interesting article fragment, from Foreign Affairs, the CFR mag.
http://www.foreignaffairs.org/19981101f ... anger.html

Personally, I think if there is ever a real 9-11 investigation, he will be found to have had a pivotal role in it....
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Postby 8bitagent » Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:25 pm

Searcher08 wrote:Interesting article fragment, from Foreign Affairs, the CFR mag.
http://www.foreignaffairs.org/19981101f ... anger.html

Personally, I think if there is ever a real 9-11 investigation, he will be found to have had a pivotal role in it....


"imaginging the transforming event"...

They sure love the word "transformation"...I think the PNAC RAD documents mention "Transformation" a few dozen times.

Heres Wolfowitz in june 2001 almost giddy with what he says is a big surprise bigger than pearl harbor coming that will prove those wrong who say war cant be profitable:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcxI5wpDueE
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Postby chiggerbit » Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:36 pm

Didn't Zelikow write a book with some else whose name also starts with"z"?
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Postby chiggerbit » Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:39 pm

Current president of the World Bank, Robert Zoelick, wrote three books together with Philip Zelikow, of the 9/11 commission.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Zoellick
."....Zoellick signed the January 26, 1998 letter[13] to President Bill Clinton from PNAC that advocated war against Iraq...."
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Postby chiggerbit » Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:55 pm

Gee, do you think they knew each other here?

"...In the 2000 U.S. presidential election campaign, Zoellick served as a foreign policy advisor to George W. Bush as part of a group, led by Condoleezza Rice, that called itself The Vulcans...."
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Postby chiggerbit » Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:33 pm

http://tinyurl.com/3bna6m

October 23, 2005
Snell worked for Zelikow, not Gorelick
As much as you've got to love Curt Weldon for having the guts to say he will resign if the Able Danger cover up continues, you've also got to admit that at times Congressman Weldon can get his facts wrong.

A great furor has arisen in the blogosphere over this Weldon comment:



"The person who debriefed Scott Philpot was, in fact, the lead staffer for Jamie Gorelick," Weldon told the Fox News Channel's "Hannity & Colmes." "His name was Dieter Snell."

Weldon contended: "It was Dieter Snell who did not brief the 9/11 Commission. The 9/11 Commissioners were never briefed on Able Danger."



He also said pretty much the same thing to Lou Dobbs on CNN:



That 9/11 Commission staffer made a decision not to brief the commissioners. That 9/11 Commission staffer was working for Jamie Gorelick, who was a member of the Commission, who wrote the famous memo that said they could not tranfer information between the military and the FBI.


First of all, the Gorelick memo - which you can read - dealt with FBI counterterrorism efforts and the need to separate countterterrorism from criminal prosecution, to avoid getting a mistrial. It did not have anything to do with the separation of FBI counterterrorism from CIA countterterrorism, DIA countterterrorism, or anything else. William Dugan established this at the Judiciary Committee hearing.

Now, on to the real substance of the argument.

Did Snell debrief Phillpott? Yes. Was he working for Jamie Gorelick? No. Not any more than he was working for Slade Gordon or any other member of the Commission, as opposed to the Commission staff. He was working for Philip Zelikow, the Executive Director of the 9/11 Commission staff who hired him as Senior Counsel.

Who is Philip Zelikow? Zelikow is now the lead Counsel for Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice. Zelikow also wrote a document called the National Security Strategy for Rice back in 2002. Not exactly a Clinton administration hold over:



Zelikow, who's mostly stayed out of the spotlight, is a strange fit for the role of administration scourge. Intellectually, he's squarely in the neoconservative camp. He was part of the Bush foreign policy transition team, and the president later named him to his presidential advisory board on intelligence. Zelikow is reportedly close to national security adviser Condoleezza Rice, with whom he co-wrote a book about German reunification in 1995. In 2002, according to James Mann's Rise of the Vulcans: The History of Bush's War Cabinet, Rice tapped Zelikow to rewrite the National Security Strategy of the United States, which emphasized preemption. He also fought for the administration's corner in his academic writing. After working on the National Security Strategy, Zelikow wrote a 6,000-word article in the neoconservative journal The National Interest praising his own document for its "explicit adaptation to the new conditions of international life."


Not only did Zelikow hire Snell, he put him in charge of writing the section of the 9/11 Commission report that dealt with the 9/11 plot. As Ernest R. May told The New Republic:



With agreement from the commissioners and his colleagues in the front office, Zelikow divided the staff into teams, more or less coinciding with topics in the outline. MacEachin headed one studying Al Qaeda. In time, this team split in two, with Dietrich Snell captaining a group that worked specifically on the 9/11 plot and the movements of the hijackers. Though a lawyer through and through, Snell had prosecuted terrorists in New York, was fascinated by the terrible story, and proved to be both a natural-born historian and a gifted writer. Hurley led the team that focused on U.S. counterterrorism activity prior to September 11.

MacEachin's, Snell's, and Hurley's teams found offices in the premises that Hamilton had obtained from the CIA. So did a team that concentrated on the intelligence community, as well as parts of a team that dealt with terrorist finance. This Special Compartmented Information Facility (SCIF, pronounced "skiff"), essentially one large safe, housed also the front office and the commission's sensitive files. It had the commission's principal conference room. Other staff in Washington and New York worked on topics such as emergency response on September 11, which required less access to highly classified material, but the SCIF was where the commission met and where all drafts for the final report ended up.

Zelikow asked all the teams to start preparing timelines and monographs for their subjects. For some, this was the first hint that they might not be writing a conventional government report--that they would be writing history. MacEachin set the example, turning out a rolling chronology into which he fitted every new scrap of information. Nearly all members of the staff accommodated to this way of sorting evidence--and this way of thinking about it. In the late spring of 2003, when the outline was finally unveiled before all the commissioners, it appeared to have won acceptance among the staff. The commission endorsed it almost without debate.



It is also worth noting that while Zelikow had been told about Able Danger in October 2003, he subsequently ignored Tony Shaffer, when Shaffer attempted to contact him to discuss it in more detail.

Snell on the other hand, did not meet with Phillpott until days before the 9/11 Report was supposed to go to press. As the Commission describes in their press release from August 12, 2005:



On July 12, 2004, as the drafting and editing process for the Report was coming to an end (the Report was released on July 22, and editing continued to occur through July 17), a senior staff member, Dieter Snell, accompanied by another staff member, met with the officer at one of the Commission’s Washington, D.C. offices. A representative of the DOD also attended the interview.

According to the memorandum for the record on this meeting, prepared the next day by Mr. Snell, the officer said that ABLE DANGER included work on “link analysis,” mapping links among various people involved in terrorist networks. According to this record, the officer recalled seeing the name and photo of Mohamed Atta on an “analyst notebook chart” assembled by another officer (who he said had retired and was now working as a DOD contractor).

The officer being interviewed said he saw this material only briefly, that the relevant material dated from February through April 2000, and that it showed Mohamed Atta to be a member of an al Qaeda cell located in Brooklyn. The officer complained that this information and information about other alleged members of a Brooklyn cell had been soon afterward deleted from the document (“redacted”) because DOD lawyers were concerned about the propriety of DOD intelligence efforts that might be focused inside the United States. The officer referred to these as “posse comitatus” restrictions. Believing the law was being wrongly interpreted, he said he had complained about these restrictions up his chain of command in the U.S. Special Operations Command, to no avail....

The interviewee had no documentary evidence and said he had only seen the document briefly some years earlier. He could not describe what information had led to this supposed Atta identification. Nor could the interviewee recall, when questioned, any details about how he thought a link to Atta could have been made by this DOD program in 2000 or any time before 9/11. The Department of Defense documents had mentioned nothing about Atta, nor had anyone come forward between September 2001 and July 2004 with any similar information. Weighing this with the information about Atta’s actual activities, the negligible information available about Atta to other U.S. government agencies and the German government before 9/11, and the interviewer’s assessment of the interviewee’s knowledge and credibility, the Commission staff concluded that the officer’s account was not sufficiently reliable to warrant revision of the report or further investigation.



Notice that it does not say Snell made the decision, it only says that "the Commission staff" did. That leads me to believe that Snell showed Zelikow his momorandum which specifically named Atta, and it was Zelikow, not Snell, who deemed it "not sufficiently reliable to warrant revision of the report or further investigation".

Now compare the records Snell kept, explicitly mentioning Atta, with the records that Zelikow kept when he met Shaffer in Afghanistan. From the same press release:



On October 21, 2003, Philip Zelikow, the executive director of the 9/11 Commission, two senior Commission staff members, and a representative of the executive branch, met at Bagram Base, Afghanistan, with three individuals doing intelligence work for the Department of Defense. One of the men, in recounting information about al Qaeda’s activities in Afghanistan before 9/11, referred to a DOD program known as ABLE DANGER. He said this program was now closed, but urged Commission staff to get the files on this program and review them, as he thought the Commission would find information about al Qaeda and Bin Ladin that had been developed before the 9/11 attack. He also complained that Congress, particularly the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence (HPSCI), had effectively ended a human intelligence network he considered valuable.

As with their other meetings, Commission staff promptly prepared a memorandum for the record. That memorandum, prepared at the time, does not record any mention of Mohamed Atta or any of the other future hijackers, or any suggestion that their identities were known to anyone at DOD before 9/11. Nor do any of the three Commission staffers who participated in the interview, or the executive branch lawyer, recall hearing any such allegation.



Was Snell on this trip? If not, who else was? The plot thickens.

Here is some more background information on Zelikow:



Zelikow practiced law in the early 1980s, but he turned toward the
field of national security in the mid 1980s. He was adjunct professor
of national security affairs at the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey, California in 1984-1985, and served in three different offices of the U.S. Department of State in the second Reagan administration.

Zelikow joined the National Security Council in the George Herbert Walker Bush administration, at the same time as Condoleezza Rice. Zelikow left the NSC in 1991 and went to Harvard, where from 1991 to 1998 he was Associate Professor of Public Policy and co-director of Harvard's Intelligence and Policy Program.

In 1998 Zelikow moved to the University of Virginia, where he directs the nation's largest center on the American presidency, serves as director of the Miller Center of Public Affairs and, as White Burkett Miller Professor of History, holds an endowed chair.

Philip Zelikow has co-authored many books. He wrote a book with Ernest May on The Kennedy Tapes, and another with Joseph Nye and David King on Why People Don't Trust Government. He wrote Germany Unified and Europe Transformed with Condoleezza Rice.

Prof. Zelikow's area of academic expertise is the creation and maintenance of, in his words, "public myths" or "public presumptions," which he defines as "beliefs (1) thought to be true (although not necessarily known to be true with certainty), and (2) shared in common within the relevant political community." In his academic work and elsewhere he has taken a special interest in what he has called "'searing' or 'molding' events [that] take on 'transcendent' importance and, therefore, retain their power even as the experiencing generation passes from the scene. In the United States, beliefs about the formation of the nation and the Constitution remain powerful today, as do beliefs about slavery and the Civil War. World War II, Vietnam, and the civil rights struggle are more recent examples." He has noted that "a history's narrative power is typically linked to how readers relate to the actions of individuals in the history; if readers cannot make a connection to their own lives, then a history may fail to engage them at all" ("Thinking about Political History," Miller Center Report [Winter 1999], pp. 5-7).

In the November-December 1998 number of Foreign Affairs, he co-authored an article entitled “Catastrophic Terrorism,” in which he speculated that if the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center had succeeded, “the resulting horror and chaos would have exceeded our ability to describe it. Such an act of catastrophic terrorism would be a watershed event in American history. It could involve loss of life and property unprecedented in peacetime and undermine America’s fundamental sense of security, as did the Soviet atomic bomb test in 1949. Like Pearl Harbor, the event would divide our past and future into a before and after. The United States might respond with draconian measures scaling back civil liberties, allowing wider surveillance of citizens, detention of suspects and use of deadly force. More violence could follow, either future terrorist attacks or U.S. counterattacks. Belatedly, Americans would judge their leaders negligent for not addressing terrorism more urgently.”

Philip Zelikow served on President Bush's transition team in 2000-2001. After George W. Bush took office, Zelikow was named to a position on the President’s Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board, and worked on other task forces and commissions as well, including the National Commission on Federal Election Reform
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Postby chiggerbit » Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:49 pm

I'm chang8ing the title to make it more search-able.
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Postby 8bitagent » Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:14 am

Able Danger was all about uncovering the protected al-Kifah center/Hamberg cell/Balkan jihad network...a big no no the elites behind 9/11 didnt want uncovered.

Of course that was only one part of the data mining revolving around 9/11.

Doesnt ANY of the left or right blosophere realize that a TRUE uncovering of the 9/11 story would find:

1. CIA protected Balkan jihadists under the KLA umbrella

2. Dr Ayman al Zawahiri's(al Qaeda no 2) brother works under the CIA as the head of the KLA in the Balkans(Macedonia, Albania, Kosovo)

3. Qatari emir and leadership safeharbored Osama and KSM and helped to fund 9/11 and other attacks

4. Saudi royals, diplomats, government officials and most importantly the GID intelligence were all involved in 9/11

5. The deep role of Pakistani ISI as logistics, power, support, orchestration and financing of 9/11 and al Qaeda

6. The deep role of some of the Dubai leadership and complicit banks

7. The fact that CIA assets like hijacker trainer Luai Sakra or Indonesian JI's Hambali(Kuala Lampar meeting, Bali Bombing, Bojinka) connect
world intelligence and corporations to al qaeda and 9/11

8. That a man named Melvin Lattimore, a protected intelligence provocatuer was used in the WTC 1993, OKC 1995 and 9/11 operation.
And that Ali Mohamed was instrumental in WTC 1993, 9/11, and 1998 embassy attacks.

9. The hijackers had HEAVY support in the US from crooked flight schools, gangsters, FBI informants, Saudi diplomats, untouchable protected Saudi charity fronts, companies like Ptech, etc.

10. That the truth behind the Balkans jihadists, the post MAK splinter groups, Saudi VISA program, post BCCI pakistani/Dubai bank world,
Hamberg Cell, and Kuala Lampar all lead right back to not just the true organizers of 9/11, but the new world order transnational network itself

11. That FBI agents were desperately trying to stop the 9/11 hijackers at flight schools, in Yemen, Saudi Osama financiers, charity fronts, etc and were told to STOP at every turn by higher ups

SADLY, most "truthers" seem to be completely ignorant of all this stuff, or rather focus on "CONTROLLED DEMOLITION! CHENEY DID IT!"

Thus, the "truth" will never come out, as LONG as idiot liberals continue to think of 9/11 as "mistakes were made, blowback", right wingers think of it as a "surprise attack by Islam", and truthers focus in on cartoonish sterile "US did it!" fervor

WTC 1993 and OKC 1995 were mostly inside jobs, but 9/11 was something even more extrordinary and frightening than a mere "US inside job"
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Postby barracuda » Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:42 am

Mole for the White House, huh? There were certainly more than one. I worked in a small capacity for Governor James "Big Jim" Thompson in the mid 1980's in Helmut Jahn's Illinois State Building in Downtown Chicago for over six years. He was the most clearly compromised individual in a position of power I had ever seen. It was widely known and acknowledged within the "don't ask, don't tell" Republican atmosphere that he was bisexual with a penshant for young muscular blondes, and his haunts in Springfield routinely included gay pickup bars "downstate" where there was perhaps less action but considerably less publicity than Chicago and way more nods and winks.

In 1987-88 everyone in the business knew that Thompson was on the short list to become Bush 41's Vice President, and was only done in and ruled out by the "secret life" he was leading. After four terms as governor, he worked as a lobbyist for both United and American Airlines. I can think of no better reason for Thompson to be on the commission than to act as an information conduit for Bush the elder. Political boss, Republican fix-it man, where does this guy fit into an in-depth examination of international terrorism?
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Postby judasdisney » Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:53 am

I think what's "big news" and "explosive" about this is that Zelikow is the only 9/11 Commission member being outed.

It should be clear by now that there are ulterior strategic reasons for a story like this being presented. I hope that 9/11 researchers do not lap-it-up at face value.
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Postby 8bitagent » Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:24 am

I think the deafening silence of the liberal media and blogosphere shows the true depths of the left gatekeepers.

I know I rag on the left more than the right, but come on...the left has villified Karl Rove no end(with good reason), yet heres a CLEAR story of Karl Rove directly using Zellikow as a puppet to white wash and obfuscate the 9/11 commission...

yet WHERE is the left anger?

Where is it?

Let's say it again: LIBERALS ARE AFRAID OF 9/11 TRUTH.

Liberals LOVE the 9/11 lie and "Osama alone did it" meme almost as much or more than the right.

For a liberal to admit that 9/11 was not as we were told, would be absolutely mind shattering...

Therefore its neccesary for the average Colbert watching, smarmy know-it-all lefty to whine about "WMD lies" and "Bush incompetence"...because the real dark truth, is too soul shattering.

No wonder Osama bin Laden praises Noam Chomsky and other liberal heroes. They're all in the same NWO mind orgy.
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Postby chiggerbit » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:58 am

It should be clear by now that there are ulterior strategic reasons for a story like this being presented. I hope that 9/11 researchers do not lap-it-up at face value.


I'm left scratching my head how this story could help the cover-up.

I think what's "big news" and "explosive" about this is that Zelikow is the only 9/11 Commission member being outed.


Of course there were more: one by him/herself couldn't accomplish a cover-up of this magnitude. Lee Hamilton is one of the usual suspects when it comes to this kind of thing, for starters. But that's what's so big about this: this is an actual WITNESS. Unfortunately, the fanatical religiosity of the demolition truthers (there are truthers and there are truth-nutters) may have succeeded in doing their part to deafen the public to any news about a real chink in the armor of the cover-up, just as the cointelpro actors in the truth movement intended.

And before you go for my throat, it isn't what the nutters believe, it's how they go off on it. The psy-ops people have been very successful in pairing fantasists with conspiracists in the minds of the public, and this was one of their finest.

I think there are a lot of witnesses out there, maybe thousands of them. Some may have one tiny, insignificant piece of the puzzle, some may have quite a few pieces. Some may not know that they have a piece until they see something revealed by someone else. I imagine they are reluctant to come out, for many reasons. It could be a career-killer. It could be dangerous, particularly during this administration. Some might feel guilt for an unwitting part they think they played. They may fear legal consequences. They may not want to be tarred as a truth-nutter . It's possbile they will start to come out, especially if we were to get a new president who would open a new investigation, but I have my doubts that that will happen. Or they may just have nothing to lose when there's a new president. But they're out there.
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