The chimp who thought he was a boy

[teamdaemon]

I read an earlier book about Nim when I was in high school. It is definitely a fascinating story. I agree that Nim was actually communicating and not just mimicking.

If I ever met Noam Chomsky I would spit in his fucking face.

So would I, mainly because of the 9/11 / JFK thing. I can't seem to get that worked up about this, though.

[yathrib]

Not at all an uncommon view among the Professional Explainers. Years ago, I was reading that book "Why Bad Things happen to Good People," or as it should be titled, "God is a Nice, Ineffectual Jewish Nebbish Who Can't Really Help You, But Wishes You the Best, But You're On Your Own." Anyway, the author said something to the effect that animals are incapable of feeling suffering, and that they're more like machines than sentient beings. With that, I threw the book against a wall. That was the first and last time I've done that. Usually, if I don't like a book, I just stop reading it, or write a snarky review on Amazon.

Noam Chomsky's view on animals and language is the view of a fucking MORON. If Noam Chomsky saw two wild chimps playing checkers, he'd say they're incapable of playing games because they don't know how to play chess like Kasparov. The sheer idiocy of such a supposedly intelligent man, makes me wonder if he can truly believe the shit he claims. 100 words and 20,000 combinations isn't language? It's just animalistic mimicry? Might as well send all the four year old humans in the world to a zoo, then. I mean, what great minds we humans have. Great minds. Grrrrr-eat. Grrrrrrrr....... Guh. Guh. Guh. RRRrrrrrrrrrr.... Aaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyy. Tttt. Tuh. Tuh. We're so fucking awesome for being able to string together a series of short and absolutely retarded-sounding grunts and mouth spittle. Yeah, we humans don't learn language by mimicry. Ever. We don't use language to communicate with one another like mere animals, no -- we use language for a higher purpose: To prove we're human! Nevermind the fucking amazing accomplishment represented by a chimp even partially learning the language of a different fucking species. No, it doesn't count because he couldn't reach the banana on a stick that these anti-animal pricks keep hoisting higher and higher at their convenience. If I ever met Noam Chomsky I would spit in his fucking face.

[orz]

Heh..What I meant is that language of dolphins, for example, is highly complex, so much so that we havent been able to decode or understand it

That doesn't sound right at all.

[OP ED]

I do believe its unfair to judge all humans based on the actions of a few researchers. That is "we humans" missing something, is obviously untrue, in a literal sense, if we are capable of realizing that it is true in some cases. Humans display a much broader spectrum of behaviors than either side in this argument so far seems to recognize.

Our position as the dominant species on this planet attests to the fact that our arrogance is at least partially well-founded. And to lump all humans into one category of being somehow inferior to animal "cultures" is silly.

That said, I don't disagree that several species exhibit highly developed language abilities, along with the respective social structures these abilities imply.

I find that while a healthy respect for the infinite varieties of intelligence on this planet is useful and a sign of intelligence itself, the regarding of primitive lifestyle as somehow superior to ours is vastly overstated, and potentially harmfully misleading.

Note the inability of nearly all domesticated primates to acclimate well to complex human social structures [hating the new husband, etc, see the article]. This is something we would consider abberant, or symptomatic of mental [emotional] deficiency in a fellow human. This is considered within the "normal" range for chimps, as it is for human children. Chimps, however, do not "grow out" of this social deficiency.

I'm waiting for someone to commence with the accusation that I believe that animals are here for "our use" or some other such nonsense...

[nomo]

But to be fair, animals reached space way before humans did.

[Penguin]

True, true. I was making very sweeping generalisations. Planetwide, as it is. Theyre never true when looked at at a smaller level.

"I find that while a healthy respect for the infinite varieties of intelligence on this planet is useful and a sign of intelligence itself, the regarding of primitive lifestyle as somehow superior to ours is vastly overstated, and potentially harmfully misleading. "

Not my purpose at all. What I mean is that our logical capabilities are somewhat uncoupled from a full realization of the ultimate consequences in our normal awareness state. Of course there are plenty of people who are connected to a larger sphere of consideration and empathy. Its just not working well enough on species level - we dont have a functioning conscience of ethics and shared mind at a conscious level.

[OP ED]

True, true. I was making very sweeping generalisations. Planetwide, as it is. Theyre never true when looked at at a smaller level.

"I find that while a healthy respect for the infinite varieties of intelligence on this planet is useful and a sign of intelligence itself, the regarding of primitive lifestyle as somehow superior to ours is vastly overstated, and potentially harmfully misleading. "

Not my purpose at all. What I mean is that our logical capabilities are somewhat uncoupled from a full realization of the ultimate consequences in our normal awareness state. Of course there are plenty of people who are connected to a larger sphere of consideration and empathy. Its just not working well enough on species level - we dont have a functioning conscience of ethics and shared mind at a conscious level.

Of course we don't. But neither do any other animals. Not even the much vaunted Sea Mammals.

Also, as I understand it, quite a bit of the languages of specific Whale/Dolphin groups are being decoded. That it hasn't been finished yet tells you nothing regarding the ability of humans to do so. Rather it merely suggests we have more pressing concerns in general than conversing with Dolphins. Even with the minimal effort being placed in these fields, understanding of these languages is only a matter of time. I don't see Whales placing the learning of our languages as a high priority either, so this is not particularly suprising that it is taking so long.

just thought i'd throw that out there for consideration.

[FourthBase]

Their "language" is beyond ours???

#1 - Lose the fucking quotation marks, twerp.

Read any interesting dolphin poetry lately?

I rest my case. Oh, and watch your language.

Wow, you are one ignorant cocksucker.

Now we're going to have to lock up every human in the world who doesn't write poetry, especially those illiterate primitive people in third world environments.

Do you actually fucking think that dolphins don't have language???

#2 - Can you understand what they're saying? Can anyone? No. Beyond ours? Maybe not. Beyond us, absolutely. At the moment, anyway.

So what? What the hell does that prove? Besides absolutely nothing?

I mean, your romantic notion of the animal kingdom is nothing if not charming, but cut me a break and kindly refrain from commenting if you have nothing substantial to say. Or better yet, go talk to a monkey.

Fuck off, asshole.

(Which is probably a good translation for a common sentiment expressed in many an animal's language that we the supposed language gods don't yet have decoded.)

[FourthBase]

If Noam Chomsky saw two wild chimps playing checkers

I gotta ask, is that a common sight in your neck of the woods then?

It's a fucking analogy, dipshit. And what, are you suggesting that animals don't even play games of their own devising?

If I ever met Noam Chomsky I would spit in his fucking face.

You mean, like a llama?

Pretty much, I'd argue with him nice and forcefully, vehemently enough to cause my spittle to wind up flying into his face.

[OP ED]

Y'know, FourB, you'd probably accomplish more in these discussions if there were less insults and more ideas in your posts. Just a thought.

[FourthBase]

Cheers Penguin. A much more reasonable response than Fourthbase's.

Am I defending "my position as a human"? I guess you could call it that. I am not denying there is tremendous value in studying the abilities of animals in terms of social behavior and communication. But it also seems, uh, beyond obvious that it is us humans who've got the leading edge on this planet. And if this planet is in trouble, I guarantee you it's not because of dolphin literature.

Who the hell was arguing that, tool? Stop shadowboxing.

[yathrib]

http://www.crows.net/language.html

THE LANGUAGE OF CROWS
What we know about crow communication.

The most obvious characteristics of the American crow are that it is big, black, and makes a lot of noise. The most obvious sound that crows make is the one written in English as caw. Caws may be long or short, loud or relatively soft, given singly or in sequences, made by one bird alone or by two or more birds under a variety of circumstances.

We also know that the caws of crows can sound different to human listeners. Within the same group of crows in a limited territory, there can be considerable variation in how the caws sound to a listener, and it has also often been noted that crows in different parts of the United States sound different from each other.

In addition to the distinctive caws, crows also make a variety of other sounds including, but not limited to, imitations of sounds of other species, including elements of human speech. Of particular interest is a whole variety of other crow vocalizations that don't fit into the above categories, are fairly low volume and may be used by one crow alone or among a group of crows.

Observers over the centuries have noted that crows use specific sounds under specific circumstances. Alarm calls, assembly calls, distress calls, and many others have been noted. One problem in interpreting these calls, however, has been the fact that different groups of crows, belonging to the same species but in different geographical areas, may not use or understand all of the same calls.

Hubert and Mable Frings (1959) noted, for example, that American eastern crows that breed in Pennsylvania and winter in the southern states among fish crows will respond to the distress call of the French jackdaw, a related bird not native to any portion of their range. Eastern crows that breed in Maine and apparently never mix with other crows, however, do not react to the jackdaw calls.

Bernd Heinrich, in Ravens in Winter states the following, which seems equally true for the American crow as the Common Raven.

"We have hardly begun to decipher the language of the raven. Its dictionary so far contains but a few 'words'. Perhaps our analysis has been too coarse-grained to catch the meanings. Our research has been something like that of aliens from outer space who make sonograms of human vocalizations under different situations - eating, playing, loving, fighting, etc. Certain differences noted in frequency, intonation, and loudness are correlated with feelings and emotions. But human sounds convey much more, and perhaps ravens' do, too."

Our challenge is to put ourselves in the place of those "aliens from outer space" and solve the immensely difficult problem of how to communicate with another intelligent species.

[orz]

Life in the oceans must be sheer hell. A vast, merciless hell of permanent and immediate danger. So much of a hell that during evolution some species—including man—crawled, fled onto some small continents of solid land, where the Lessons of Darkness continue.

[FourthBase]

Y'know, FourB, you'd probably accomplish more in these discussions if there were less insults and more ideas in your posts. Just a thought.

I'm not out to "accomplish" anything.
This is who I am, how I talk.

If nomo were a stranger in a bar saying what he said, I'd be no different.

[nomo]

#@&$*!!

On second thought, maybe animals do have a better command of language than some humans.