9/11 Truth Movement vs. 9/11 Truth

[seemslikeadream]

http://www.theonion.com/content/video/9 ... y_theories

[compared2what?]

8bit, I appreciate your effort and look forward to continuing to discuss all the minutiae of our dying civilization with you (thereby actually allowing it to die), but you did not understand a word I said.

I was out all day, just returned, re-read it, and can't say that I blame you that much for it, however. I have no idea what you want people to wake up to or why. These are some things I know that I would like others to spend the same amount of energy thinking about as they do thinking about the details of what happened one day seven years ago.

I know that a horrible crime occurred on that day in which a number of people are implicated. I don't know how many, but I'd say the truly culpable would fit in a large conference room -- ie, not a tiny number, but not hundreds and hundreds, either. I observe that all people implicated have benefited in one way or another from the crime. I don't know, but do allege, based on some information and some belief, that this is because ultimately they all play for one team. I don't know or care whether that team is the Washington Meta-Nationals, or the Illuminati Meta-nationals. Because I do know that I'm not on it. I also know that the life of anyone who is not on that team has no value at all in its eyes. I also know the people who hold high public office in my country are liars. I allege that they are completely lawless. And I know that I am complicit in all the savagery, viciousness, and evil that serves their interests. Because they and the system they run are nothing without me, many times multiplied.

What the hell else does anyone need to know? The perps for the seven-year-old crime are at large, and they have not been held accountable. But there are at the moment much bigger crimes in progress, for which I am accountable, but cannot prevent unless all other currently bickering parties stop bickering about then and think about now. The crime currently underway might be halted if everyone who tells pollsters that's what they want admitted they were accountable and were going to demonstrate their regret by ceasing to cooperate. That's only a little more likely than pigs flying, but if it's not totally out of the question, I don't see that there's anything to lose by trying it that we're not going to end up losing if we spend our time fucking bickering about who can tell the best story about how we got to the here and now.

You are implicated in horrible, horrible things, if you are an American citizen, imo. Much worse things than a failure to acknowledge controlled demolition or an insistence on acknowledging it. I cannot understand why anyone would not prefer to work toward getting the little detail of their complicity in ongoing mass murder straightened out than to work toward winning a fucking forensic debate. I am not accusing all American citizens of viciousness, btw. Far from it. I'm an American citizen and I deplore what is done in my name, but, whatever. As long as I'm not on strike against it, I can't see how I'm not implicated. I pay for it, for one thing. I contribute to the upkeep of the illusion that we live in a free society. I'd say I'm culpable. I do say it.

I'm bowing out until I've come up with a better means of getting my point across. So go on back to bickering.

kthxby

ON EDIT: Maybe two large conference rooms.

[Hugh Manatee Wins]

......

From the quoted arrriricle quoted:
One molecule, described by the EPA's Erik Swartz, was present at levels "that dwarfed all others": 1,3-diphenylpropane. "We've never observed it in any sampling we've ever done," Swartz said. He said it was most likely produced by the plastic of tens of thousands of burning computers.

So is that diphenylpropane from the sol-gels to hold the marmite or from burning computers?

(Not marmite, it was veggimite.)

Good question.
EPA's Swartz simply hazards a guess. Not good enough. NIST did that, too.

I'd think that the compounds given off by burning computers from an office fire would be well known by now.

Plus gel or no, there's still gobs of other evidence like the pools of unquenchable molten metal and the metallurgy of thermite - I mean - veggimite.

[slimmouse]

http://www.theonion.com/content/video/9_11_conspiracy_theories

Brilliant SLAD

Thanks for the light relief

[brainpanhandler]

8bit, I appreciate your effort and look forward to continuing to discuss all the minutiae of our dying civilization with you (thereby actually allowing it to die), but you did not understand a word I said.

I was out all day, just returned, re-read it, and can't say that I blame you that much for it, however. I have no idea what you want people to wake up to or why. These are some things I know that I would like others to spend the same amount of energy thinking about as they do thinking about the details of what happened one day seven years ago.

I know that a horrible crime occurred on that day in which a number of people are implicated. I don't know how many, but I'd say the truly culpable would fit in a large conference room -- ie, not a tiny number, but not hundreds and hundreds, either. I observe that all people implicated have benefited in one way or another from the crime. I don't know, but do allege, based on some information and some belief, that this is because ultimately they all play for one team. I don't know or care whether that team is the Washington Meta-Nationals, or the Illuminati Meta-nationals. Because I do know that I'm not on it. I also know that the life of anyone who is not on that team has no value at all in its eyes. I also know the people who hold high public office in my country are liars. I allege that they are completely lawless. And I know that I am complicit in all the savagery, viciousness, and evil that serves their interests. Because they and the system they run are nothing without me, many times multiplied.

What the hell else does anyone need to know? The perps for the seven-year-old crime are at large, and they have not been held accountable. But there are at the moment much bigger crimes in progress, for which I am accountable, but cannot prevent unless all other currently bickering parties stop bickering about then and think about now. The crime currently underway might be halted if everyone who tells pollsters that's what they want admitted they were accountable and were going to demonstrate their regret by ceasing to cooperate. That's only a little more likely than pigs flying, but if it's not totally out of the question, I don't see that there's anything to lose by trying it that we're not going to end up losing if we spend our time fucking bickering about who can tell the best story about how we got to the here and now.

You are implicated in horrible, horrible things, if you are an American citizen, imo. Much worse things than a failure to acknowledge controlled demolition or an insistence on acknowledging it. I cannot understand why anyone would not prefer to work toward getting the little detail of their complicity in ongoing mass murder straightened out than to work toward winning a fucking forensic debate. I am not accusing all American citizens of viciousness, btw. Far from it. I'm an American citizen and I deplore what is done in my name, but, whatever. As long as I'm not on strike against it, I can't see how I'm not implicated. I pay for it, for one thing. I contribute to the upkeep of the illusion that we live in a free society. I'd say I'm culpable. I do say it.

I'm bowing out until I've come up with a better means of getting my point across. So go on back to bickering.

kthxby

ON EDIT: Maybe two large conference rooms.

Before I read this I thought I was very fond of you. I am so glad that for whatever reason you chose to start speaking here and for whatever reason I did as well.

[Hugh Manatee Wins]

Consider the complicated web of intrigue around Dealey Plaza which few can plumb without becoming part-time scholars...but the masses can understand the physical evidence of the Zapruder film ("back and to the left") and all those witnesses describing shots from the fenceline on the grassy knoll.

You think TV nation can grok the stuff about NWO puppets whose names aren't even pronouncable that 8bitagent focuses on?

No way.

Well Hugh Manatee Wins, you do Win with that comment.

My research isnt for the average person, or even the average "truther".

I realy do appreciate how deeply you go into the cast of characters, 8bit, so I'm not discouraging that at all. Heck somebody has to make the effort to inventory the dancefloor just before the Big Finale.

You and I can both agree, that to the average right, left or centrist person...the collapse of the towers is the #1 attention getter. Hell thats why they were brought down.

Darn tootin.'
We can ferret out who's in the shadows but the audience sees the the Spotlight Couple, two buildings killing 3000 people (and maybe that third building).

You know, its funny...people claim its not Osama in the "confession" tape. to me it clearly is, and whats REALLY funny...is he seems SHOCKED the towers fall. If Osama was in on 9/11, he had no idea that the towers would collapse...and was just as shocked as the fact the air force was MIA

Any Osama videos are not worth considering as any more real than Forrest Gump meeting JFK. And TV Nation knows all about Gump-tech and 'Wag the Dog.'
So they must be reminded. And this gets a foot in the door of their disbelief about the Big Show.

But the SAME focus on CD is also what alienates and stigmatizes people

Hugh, you are quite aware how many people, I'd say at least 60% or more who hear of 9/11 theories laugh at the idea of bombs in the building?
Just saying.

Should we shut up about the Zapruder film and fake autopsy materials just because Operation Mockingbird's Dan Rather and Vincent Bugliosi and Robert Stone/PBS are still peddling the Magic Bullet?

No way. We STILL have to insist and hold the truth line on JFK from 45 years ago.
So it goes.

>Firefighters report bombs
>pools of molten metal for months
>impossible 'collapse' behaviors like beams hurled hundreds of feet horizontally, etc.

Stick to the evidence right there in the Big Finale for as long as it takes.

[Hugh Manatee Wins]

You think TV nation can grok the stuff about NWO puppets whose names aren't even pronouncable that 8bitagent focuses on?

No way.

Assuming the worst about people (ie that they are too stupid to follow names in a book) would appear to be one of the things some people find a little bit off putting about "twoofers".

Its as much snobbery as the snobbery someone (ninakat?) accused jeff of.

.....]

I'm not "assuming the worst" or implying anybody's "stupid."

I'm referring to much more than just being able to "follow names in a book."

Go ask someone to name the alleged 19 hijackers and which ones are really alive somewhere, the people involved in the 1993 WTC bombing, the Bojinka plot, the double agents, and who they all met when and where and why.

Oh, and which of this information is real, which is disinfo, which is misinfo, and what all this PROVES.

Then ask them to tell someone else so they can tell someone else.

No way. That is NOT a path to 9/11 truth activism.

[Hugh Manatee Wins]

You think TV nation can grok the stuff about NWO puppets whose names aren't even pronouncable that 8bitagent focuses on?

No way.

That's our Hugh, just filled to the brim with love for humanity...

Hunh? Nothing to do with "love for humanity," oh noble defender of the masses from the likes of me.

Where'd this non-sequitor come from? JoeHillsHoist made negative comments about my calling something too complex for activism, too.

Since you're both up in the wrong tree I'll repeat what I wrote Joe now with your name on it-

I'm not "assuming the worst" or implying anybody's "stupid."

I'm referring to much more than just being able to "follow names in a book."

Go ask someone to name the alleged 19 hijackers and which ones are really alive somewhere, the people involved in the 1993 WTC bombing, the Bojinka plot, the double agents, and who they all met when and where and why.

Oh, and which of this information is real, which is disinfo, which is misinfo, and what all this PROVES.

Then ask them to tell someone else so they can tell someone else.

No way. That is NOT a path to 9/11 truth activism.

[barracuda]

Although the questions presented by the myriad of information necessary to process through an even cursory understanding of the web of 9/11 are complex, the answers to the problems fostered upon the American people are relatively straightforward, and available to every citizen. If you are really interested in justice in this country, you have to get organized. One of the largest problems with the truth "movement" is that there is very little of a movement at all. The proponents of the various points of view remarked upon in this thread seem to have largely gone out of their way to publicly avoid any form of rallying the troops. Rather, they form loose coalitions to protest events, as guerrilla hecklers, sign wavers and somewaht spontaneous, amorphous protest groups. In our post-modern society sometimes it seems counter productive or uncool to try and lead people through organizing, but it is through organized collective action that our governmental system responds.

A more pragmatic approach would begin with the notion that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". Under such a rubric, many of these bicker points might be diverted into a more profitable energy. Then the deep rifts in our country's psyche might be channeled toward tasks which are more fundamental than unwinding the maze of 911. The energy of our people should be focused upon moving forward towards creating a more representative government, for that is now the only retribution we have available. The perpetrators of 9/11 are slowly fading into history and arepassing their power, now in the process of being consolidated, on to the progeny of their rape of the nation. This consolidation of power must be addressed at its most basic level, the only level we may persue with impunity. To stop the slaughter brought upon the world via this heinous act of terror, the actual citizenry must take control en mass. To do this requires changing the laws surrounding the election of our officials.

My personal feeling is that public funding of election campaigns is a first step which must be taken of the huge money interests are ever to be wrested from their ensconcement. We can never be free of tyranny as long as we are ruled by billionaires who are beholded to corporations ruled by billionaires. And yet this is a fight that just may be won, not some quixotic puzzle to dazzle our sense and rob us of our time, dividing groups to whom shared interests and solutions are in their own best interests. We, as a people, have to be able to advance our common cause through changes we can really create, changes which may seem deceptively small at first glance. For it is the seeming innocuousness of these truly possible changes which distinguish them from the ideal, valient yet impossible transformations many would like to see. We have to do what we can do, what can be done. The smallest acts of kindness have incredible power. The microbe can wipe out civilizations. We are responsible for the acts carried out in our flags shadow. Use this knowledge of the inner workings to discern the weaknesses which are inherent in every criminal plan: take responsibility and change your world. Nothing would fuck them over more than the creation of peace. It will only begin to happen under the radar, at least at first.

Forty years from now people will still be writing books and holding symposia on the collapse of the towers. Far more importantly than who will be right, is who will be free.

[8bitagent]

Well me and Hugh are in total agreement that *something* other than planes and fuel brought down the towers, and that this is the #1 attention getter for people.

Hugh is right, that talking about post BCCI-Balkans-para politic networks, Ali Mohamed, assets, informants, and Saudi/Pakistani financing will just make people go "who, whaa, huh?" with their eyes glazed over.

Tho, the few times coverups do get exposed or brought to court...it is usually the money trail and "mundane" issues.

Some see a genuine Islamic terror attack, some see a wholly US or Israeli inside job, and some like me see a complex global spanning conspiracy traversing lines of interest. It's, the ultimate rorschach test.

And yeah, it's hilarious to see Arlen Spectre on youtube the other day agreeing about the Able Danger coverup and anthrax...

when he, Dan Rather and others went out of their way to mislead the public to Kennedy's headshot. That's just not right.

"Our lying eyes".

IF...if the ability to question 9/11 is the litmus test between intellectual people who see corruption and those who just can't "get it"...then the idea of the towers being sabotaged is the litmus test between 9/11 researchers and 'truthers'.

I may be one of the youngest people on the forum, but I can assure you folks that even the Colbert weened liberal kids out there laugh at the controlled demolition hypothesis. Sadly, they believe it was merely jet fuel and 9/11 was the work solely of Muslim fanatics...yet somehow, Bush is a "bad guy"(sometimes I hate the anti Bush mentality as much as the pro Bush crowd)

[FourthBase]

Only the easy to prove and describe controlled demolition of the WTC meets these criteria.

#1 - "Only"? "Only"???? Get the fuck out of here with that facile bullshit. Apparently the criticism of Truther zealots is right on the fucking money: They're lazy, and they don't have the energy to do any heavy reading, heavy thinking, or heavy explaining to the masses. Well, that's their (read: your) fucking problem.

#2 - "Easy to prove" my ass. So retarded, not worth the elaboration. Needless to say, it's ABSO-FUCKING-LUTELY NOT "easy to prove". Diseased thinking. Totally counter-productive thinking. Such a statement is effectively an attempt to sabotage all rational discourse about 9/11.

[FourthBase]

I may be one of the youngest people on the forum, but I can assure you folks that even the Colbert weened liberal kids out there laugh at the controlled demolition hypothesis

Maybe they wouldn't laugh so much if it actually "met the criteria" for a hypothesis, instead of being a fucking cultish litmus test imposed by lazy-ass over-zealous wannabes.

[Hugh Manatee Wins]

Only the easy to prove and describe controlled demolition of the WTC meets these criteria.

#1 - "Only"? "Only"???? Get the fuck out of here with that facile bullshit. Apparently the criticism of Truther zealots is right on the fucking money: They're lazy, and they don't have the energy to do any heavy reading, heavy thinking, or heavy explaining to the masses. Well, that's their (read: your) fucking problem.

#2 - "Easy to prove" my ass. So retarded, not worth the elaboration. Needless to say, it's ABSO-FUCKING-LUTELY NOT "easy to prove". Diseased thinking. Totally counter-productive thinking. Such a statement is effectively an attempt to sabotage all rational discourse about 9/11.

Alrighty then. Now the light shines in.

[FourthBase]

Only the easy to prove and describe controlled demolition of the WTC meets these criteria.

#1 - "Only"? "Only"???? Get the fuck out of here with that facile bullshit. Apparently the criticism of Truther zealots is right on the fucking money: They're lazy, and they don't have the energy to do any heavy reading, heavy thinking, or heavy explaining to the masses. Well, that's their (read: your) fucking problem.

#2 - "Easy to prove" my ass. So retarded, not worth the elaboration. Needless to say, it's ABSO-FUCKING-LUTELY NOT "easy to prove". Diseased thinking. Totally counter-productive thinking. Such a statement is effectively an attempt to sabotage all rational discourse about 9/11.

Alrighty then. Now the light shines in.

What light, Hugh?

Activism must comply with (and take advantage of) the tested rules of propaganda-

1) Your message must be visible.

2) Your message must be relevant to the audience.

3) Your message must be conveyed with credibility.

4) Your message must be understandable.

5) Your message must be easily repeated.

Re: 9/11.
Only the easy to prove and describe controlled demolition of the WTC meets these criteria.

Tell me how ONLY the controlled demolition "hypothesis" meets those 5 criteria, or why some of the criteria even fucking matter. "Must be easily repeated"? What the fuck kind of criterion is that? Anything can be easily repeated, and surely the juiciest parts of the money and terrorist-cutout trails are just as easily repeatable as a fucking mini-physics lesson, if not more so. "Must be understandable"? Who in the fuck can understand the physical how but NOT the just-as-powerful circumstantial who? Some kind of physics-oriented autistic savant who has trouble connecting simple whodunnit dots? "Must be conveyed with credibility"? Praytell, where exactly is there a credibility gap between 9/11 skeptics who prioritize the circumstantial evidence and 9/11 Truthers who absolutize the notion of controlled demolition? "Must be relevant to the audience"? How is the physics of a skyscraper being destroyed more relevant to the average audience than the kind of paper trail people follow all the time on their favorite cops-and-robbers TV show, and even in their own lives? "Must be visible"? Um...and what: The paper trail is invisible? Cooperativeresearch.org is invisible? I just checked, and my eyes are working: It's not fucking invisible. Your entire post above wasn't just full of shit, it was overflowing with shit.

[sandymac]

Why all that naughty naughty language? Does naughty language make one feel better? Such an emotional issue...I really like the Santa Claus connection. I guess we need our security blankets and binkies or we have tantrums. All the serious reseachers of 9/11 simply ask for a new, independant investigation. What's so emotional about that?