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Postby teamdaemon » Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:05 am

Examples of the help, please?


I have noticed that Echart Tolle is very popular among people who have emotional and mental health issues. Meditation is much better than medication. I have also noticed that the people who benefit from Echart Tolle generally don't have the energy to be preoccupied with the calamity going on in the wider world because they have enough to deal with just getting by.
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Postby tazmic » Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:28 am

The funding of these movements runs deep:

Towards Integral Consciousness (13mins 40s)
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Postby lunarose » Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:59 pm

thank you c2w? for answer. family thing, no time for response now.
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Postby compared2what? » Thu Apr 24, 2008 1:52 pm

teamdaemon wrote:
Examples of the help, please?


I have noticed that Echart Tolle is very popular among people who have emotional and mental health issues. Meditation is much better than medication. I have also noticed that the people who benefit from Echart Tolle generally don't have the energy to be preoccupied with the calamity going on in the wider world because they have enough to deal with just getting by.


Thanks for your response, TD, and also for replying to me as if I hadn't been an asshole when I asked in the first place.

I identify with the people you've noticed. I have some innate handicaps that automatically make just getting by enough to deal with a lot of the time, and, infrequently but occasionally, too much to deal with some of the time. On those occasions, I also have always chosen what struck me as the best available thing that enabled me just to get by. Because if I can't live to be preoccupied with the calamity of the wider world another day, then obviously, I'm not going to be a hell of a lot of help to the even more disadvantaged people living in it whom I want to use whatever meager abilities I have in order to help.

But the last part of that is a personal aim, and certainly not something I think all people in all circumstances are obligated to want, just because I do. I think people should be free to do whatever is in harmony with their own aims and the world as they see it and as they are able to deal with it (as long as their aims and means of coping don't include, like, destroying the world or some part of it, it should go without saying).

I don't agree without qualification that it's a globally applicable truth that meditation is better than medication for all people. But I'm open to being persuaded by evidence that it is, because I would certainly prefer it to be. Definitely, when it's a viable beneficial option, and doesn't entail participating in anything that's a net deficit to self or others, I'm with you 100 percent.

Finally, to whatever percent I differ with you, it's respectfully and not angrily. Even happily. Hashing out respectful differences of opinion are one of the things that make the world go round to the benefit of all people, in my opinion, observation, and experience.

Bestest and with real regret for having snarled at you,

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Postby compared2what? » Fri Apr 25, 2008 6:46 am

Well, as so often happens when I get to the incredibly dull related-party business research, I seem to have put everyone in a coma.

That video with Laitman in it is chock-full of people who derive from Club-of-Rome or Global-Marshall-Plan type backgrounds. But it's a huge network of moving parts. The uppermost parts of it look like standard-issue deep-political redoubts. But that doesn't necessarily taint every single offshoot. Logically, I would expect the opposite, actually. Some parts have to be clean in order for the money-laundering to happen.

As for Tolle, other than that he has some relationship with the Findhorn Foundation, which is grimy in some of the basic and predictable ways that go with branding, imaging, and big-bucks fundraising, I don't see much beyond that it will definitely take me forever to get anywhere more concrete.

Does anyone care? Because if not, I won't bother.
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Postby lea123 » Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:23 pm

(a little voice pipes up)

I read PON last week and found it to be a really good intro to mindfulness. Easily digested by someone without much background in Buddhism, etc.

There are place in the book where he directly addresses the question of acting in the world--I won't quote all of them, but here's a taste:

"How can we create a better world without tackling the evils such as hunger and violence first?" Tolle responds "...If you feel called upon to alleviate suffering in the world, that is a very noble thing to do, but remember not to focus exclusively on the outer; otherwise, you will encounter frustration and despair. Without a profound change in human consciousness, the world's suffering is a bottomless pit...let your peace flow into whatever you do and you will be working on the levels of effect and cause simultaneously." (Others in this thread have said the same thing, but I thought I'd let you hear it direct from Tolle himself...)


What bothers me greatly, however, is that Oprah has gotten her hands on it and turned what apparently was a popular although relatively unpublicized book into a media phenomenon, into something to be consumed, just like the rest of "Oprah's Favorite Things". In her own inimitable style, she's turned something that is incredibly difficult (as others in this thread have testified to)--mindfulness--something that requires a lifetime of committment and practice--into something that you can buy like an aromatherapy candle or a yoga mat. I guess Oprah has done some "good" things with her incredible wealth and her media power but I find her pretty materialistic and spiritually shallow, and this book (rather, this philosophy) deserves better than that.
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Postby chlamor » Sat Apr 26, 2008 9:25 pm

compared2what? wrote:Well, as so often happens when I get to the incredibly dull related-party business research, I seem to have put everyone in a coma.

That video with Laitman in it is chock-full of people who derive from Club-of-Rome or Global-Marshall-Plan type backgrounds. But it's a huge network of moving parts. The uppermost parts of it look like standard-issue deep-political redoubts. But that doesn't necessarily taint every single offshoot. Logically, I would expect the opposite, actually. Some parts have to be clean in order for the money-laundering to happen.

As for Tolle, other than that he has some relationship with the Findhorn Foundation, which is grimy in some of the basic and predictable ways that go with branding, imaging, and big-bucks fundraising, I don't see much beyond that it will definitely take me forever to get anywhere more concrete.

Does anyone care? Because if not, I won't bother.


I'd be interested in that research.
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Postby chlamor » Sat Apr 26, 2008 9:34 pm

The New Age Racket and the Left
By Justin E. H. Smith

<snip>

I would like to discuss that movement often covered by the umbrella term 'New Age', and to argue, specifically, that New Agers should be ashamed of themselves, for abandoning all concern with those goals that have traditionally served as the driving force of progressive politics, like social justice, equality, the end of oppression, etc., and allowing -- nay, aiding -- the cynical and opportunistic power-mongers to make the world as disappointing a place as it currently is.

Before this polemic begins in earnest, perhaps it will be best to sketch out a definition of the concept that concerns us. By 'New Age' I mean to refer to any world-view that:

1. is decidedly postmodern, in that it picks and chooses from vastly older traditions those features it finds useful;

2. is sloppily multiculturalist, in that it levels out and denies legitimate distinctions between the traditions from which it borrows;

3. is individualistic, in that it takes spirituality to be a 'quest', and sees the ultimate end of this quest as self-fulfillment (however much it may borrow from traditions that emphasize self-overcoming or dissolution of the ego, even at times insisting that it shares this goal);

4. is nostalgic, in that it maintains that with the rise of modernity, humanity experienced the loss of a distinctly 'spiritual' disposition, in contrast with the rational disposition;

5. in large part as a consequence of its suspicion of rationality, is also uncritical as a matter of principle;

6. portrays itself as apolitical, or, better, as tapping into a reality so profound that any explanation of it in terms of the social, economic, and historical plights of its adherents can be safely dismissed as irrelevant.

I propose, in contrast to the last of these, that the New Age movement can only be understood politically. In an atmosphere, moreover, in which one rarely come across a self-identified anarchist, socialist, environmentalist, or progressive who will not also willingly identify his or her star sign and proceed to expatiate on the finer details this totemic affiliation reveals about his or her personality, I must add that it is exceedingly urgent that we come to a political understanding of how it has come to this, and then proceed to purge this disgraceful tendency utterly from our ranks, either through re-education or, for the intractable, banishment.

That's right. It's time for all of us who consider ourselves even mildly progressive to get at least a little bit Maoist on the occultists' asses, confident in the singular correctness of the scientific world-view, and intolerant of 'difference' when all this manages to give us is muddle-headed obscurantism.

It is not for nothing that I bring up Mao here. For New Ageism represents but one of the two possible outcomes of the 1960s. The other possible outcome, unflinching revolution against the status quo in society and its consequent radical transformation, fizzled out in the first decade of the 1970s, as all those Aquarians who, around 1967, joined up for the sex, drugs, and rock-and-roll, quickly realized they did not want to go all that far in pushing the dawning of a new age after all, by, say, joining violent revolutionary groups like the Weathermen and Black Panthers in the US, the Baader-Meinhof gang in Germany, and the Red Brigade in France, but were unable to come up with any more creative, non-violent ways of transforming society. The age of Aquarius, in short, won out over the dictatorship of the proletariat. Santa Cruz emerged victorious over Beijing. But why, precisely, crystals? Why this feel-good Buddhism lite hocked by the Dalai Lama? Why the insistence from just about every whitebread American you meet that they have a bit of Native American blood, and thus have some privileged insight into animals, or dreams, or life and death? New Age, in the particular form it came to have in the 1970s, was the result of the confluence of two distinct trends extending back to the 19th century. One was the proliferation of curiosity about paranormal phenomena, such as animal magnetism, telepathy, and communication with the dead, that so fascinated Victorian parlor company. Early on, some of these programs of investigation were legitimate, and it is only because they were pursued that we have been able to determine as much as we have (and we've only just begun) about the boundary between sane and meaningful discourse on the one hand and bullshit on the other. But for the most part, they drew the attention they did because the positive results that establishment science is able to come up with are generally quite dull, and certainly won't do as entertainment.

<snip>

In short, the Age of Aquarius did not pop out of nowhere. Aleister Crowley, Madame Blavatsky, and Bronislaw Malinowski all played their parts, and in an era when, as the popular narrative (of American history anyway) has it, the vast majority of people were still good, simple, rule-following, God-fearing folk.

But all of this is old hat. What has not been sufficiently emphasized, in my view, is the way in which the victory of the Age of Aquarius over the dictatorship of the proletariat, New Age over revolutionism, was easily, happily, accommodated by those in power. Go ahead, transform yourselves. Absorb all the energy you can from that crystal around your neck. Just don't try to change the world, or take control of the means of production, and we won't seek to stamp you out. While its adepts see it as an 'elevation' or 'liberation', in fact New Age is a retreat and a capitulation.

Indeed, self-fulfillment is not just easily accommodated within the system against which the counterculture initially set itself up in opposition. It is a positive goldmine. Browse at an airport bookstore on a stopover. Look at the titles on the New York Times bestseller list. It would take a naïveté I can't even begin to comprehend to fail to notice that spirituality -- what passes for Eastern spirituality, in particular -- is by now a commodity like any other. This phenomenon is now being treated by a very small number of social scientists. The French sociologist Raphaël Liogier, for instance, in his Bouddhisme mondialisé: une perspective sociologique sur la globalisation du religieux (Ellipses, 2004; sorry, Republicans, there's no translation yet), shows how the globalization and commodification of this religion promotes an odd combination of a gratifying sense of planetary citizenship with the same sort of ego-inflating, success-driven advice one finds in those troubling self-help/business paperbacks that sell so well, like The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People.

But why call it Buddhism, if it's all made up anyway? Why not impose the New Age ethos on our own, autochthonous Christianity? Again, it will help to recall two of the features of New Agery listed above: its sloppy multiculturalism, and its knee-jerk suspicion of whatever is 'Western' (which, Ethiopian and Armenian Orthodoxy, Latin American Liberation Theology, etc., notwithstanding, for some reason includes Christianity), as being too 'rational' and thus insufficiently 'spiritual'.

No, to find any authentic spiritual sentiment, or at least to market a product with the promise of authentic spiritual transformation, we must climb the Himalayas, or at least imagine ourselves on such a journey while flying to a meeting at the Kansas City branch office. The Dalai Lama serves as the best example of this tendency, and is likely also the best-selling product the New Age industry has yet put on the market. This is particularly troubling when we consider the fact that the Dalai Lama is, among other things, a political leader, whose movement has been conferred a legitimacy beyond scrutiny simply in virtue of his purported holiness.

What is so worthy about the Tibetan cause? How many if its supporters can really say? I'm not saying that it is not a worthy cause; many movements for national liberation are. But what about the Basque Country, Corsica, and Turkish Kurdistan? Nobody believes that continued occupation of these national homelands involves any sort of spiritual injustice, only the mundane political kind. This is all it should take, of course, to earn the global community's opprobrium, yet Richard Gere and the Beastie Boys remain deathly silent, for these other national-liberation struggles lack a leader sporting a robe and claiming to be a divinity. Meanwhile, his Holiness jets around, meeting with world leaders and persuading them to support his cause- including George W. Bush, whom the Dalai Lama deemed to be, like himself, a 'very spiritual person'. And even through all this, he is seen as being somehow beyond politics. This is the great illusion that sustains the New Age racket: that, because it is so spiritual, it is beyond all serious scrutiny. The proper comportment towards it is with bowed head, not open eyes.

At best, then, New Age is a lucrative side venture of neoliberalism, lining the pockets of those crafty enough to package spiritual fulfillment as a marketable product while leaving the spiritually hungry as unsated as ever. At worst, though, it is the expression of something altogether more sinister. Rootedness in the earth, a return to pure and authentic folkways, the embrace of irrationalism, the conviction that there is an authentic way of being beyond politics, the uncritical substitution of group- identification for self-knowledge, are all of them basic features of right- wing ideology.

Who is it that is out of touch with the earth, uprooted, and thus responsible for our own experience of ourselves as uprooted? The right-winger has a quick answer: it is those other people living uninvited among us, who have no homeland of their own and so have to dwell on our soil. Who or what is to blame for our loss of our old ways? The rise of the modern, rational state apparatus, with its love of science and deafness to poetry. Who or what has torn our people apart, dividing worker from baron, denying that we all share the same blood? The politics of class conflict.

In the case of Germany in the 1920s, it was the Jews who were the rootless intruders on German soil and threatened by their presence the German nation, since blood was seen as a sort of distillation out of the soil itself. France, and to some extent England, were seen as having imposed an overly rationalized state apparatus that was incompatible with the more deeply rooted, 'poetic' way of life of the Germans. And Marxism, a Jewish invention, was the wedge that separated different groups of Germans based on the otherwise insignificant criterion of class, and ignored the more important fact that, bourgeois or proletariat, Germans all have the same blood, distilled from the same soil, pumping through their veins.

Germany is its own case, of course, and it is always wise to remain skeptical of any invocation of the Nazis to denounce whatever tendency in contemporary society one finds displeasing. There is nothing in the vapid chatter about star signs that takes place in hair salons and on first dates throughout America that should cause us to worry about an imminent repetition of the Holocaust.

That said, it is also a safe bet that the diversion this vapid chatter allows, the flight into a domain that feels 'profounder than politics', has to no small extent contributed to the demise of a genuinely progressive political culture in the United States and facilitated the rise of an administration that, if superficially offensive to most New Agers (though not all: Ronald Reagan, after all, was both the godfather of neoconservatism and an enthusiastic consulter of oracles), at least shares with them the suspicion of good arguments, and the habit of claiming to derive authority from some je ne sais quoi beyond the bounds of human affairs. Most of all, the uncritical resignation required in order for one to get wrapped up in something like astrology is exactly the sort of disposition, when it takes hold of millions of otherwise dissenting minds, that best suits the purposes of a regime like the one currently in power.

<snip>

A similar point was made long ago by Theodor Adorno in his study of the horoscope section of the Los Angeles Times in the early 1950s, subsequently published under the title The Stars Down to Earth. He argued that horoscopes, if not in themselves permeated by fascist ideology, promote the sort of submission to abstract authority that paves the way for the rise of fascism. Earlier, in the Dialectic of Enlightenment, Adorno had railed against the Nazi denunciation of psychoanalysis. Isn't it revealing, he asked, of the true nature of this movement that it disdains with such ferocity the endeavor to know oneself? Fascism would prefer that its subjects engage in a more harmless variety of searching for self-knowledge, the kind that comes to nothing, motivates no overcoming of dependency upon paternal authority, whether the original, family variety, or the kind that's invested in a Führer. Runes, anyone?

Many New Agers seem to feel not just secure in but altogether self-righteous about the benevolence of their world-view, pointing to the fact, for example, that it 'celebrates' the native cultures that global capitalism would plow over. To this one might respond, first of all, that celebration of native cultures is itself big business. Starbucks does it. So, in its rhetoric, does the Southeast Asian sex-tourism industry. Second, the simple fact that New Age is by its own lights multicultural and syncretistic is by no means a guarantee that it is safe from the accusation of being, at best, permissive of, and, at worst, itself an expression of, right-wing ideology. The Nazis, to return to a tried and true example, were no less obsessed with Indian spirituality than was George Harrison. Indeed, the Beatles and the other followers of the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi were not trailblazers among Europeans, as the aging hippies still like to think; the sitar on Rubber Soul was not the first time in history a subcontinental flourish made its way into European arts and literature. This was only a very recent instance of a trend that extends back to the early 19th century, in Germany, and includes many of the Romantic authors, of whose ideas Nazism was not so much a distortion as a particularly bold strain.

<snip>

New Age is an imagined, personal secession. It is fantasy, though this is not in itself an indictment. Theatre is fantasy too, and I have no interest in stamping it out. But New Age is a sorry sort of fantasy, for it imagines itself to be a form of resistance, but is only able to take hold in history when true resistance proves too difficult to sustain.

<snip>

http://www.jehsmith.com/1/2004/08/new_age_racket_.html
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Postby Eldritch » Sat Apr 26, 2008 9:45 pm

Chlamor, these are direct questions that your posts inspire. I'd be interested in your answers, should you care to provide them.

Do you see spirituality—in any inner form—as an honest and beneficial expression of humanity?

If so, what is that expression like?

If not, why not?
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Postby chlamor » Sat Apr 26, 2008 9:58 pm

Eldritch wrote:Chlamor, these are direct questions that your posts inspire. I'd be interested in your answers, should you care to provide them.

Do you see spirituality—in any inner form—as an honest and beneficial expression of humanity?

If so, what is that expression like?

If not, why not?


Possibly.

How would that inner form come to expression?

And yes exactly, what is that expression?

Ultimately I find "spiritually" of any sort to be completely useless and destructive if it does not connect one to the outer world.

Further I'd say that that connection, in any meaningful sense, comes in direct relation to the material world.

Ultimately I'd say that this "spirituality" thingie is best practiced through one's daily life and only to be considered abstractly after everyone has food in their belly.
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Postby slimmouse » Sat Apr 26, 2008 10:06 pm

chlamor wrote:
Eldritch wrote:Chlamor, these are direct questions that your posts inspire. I'd be interested in your answers, should you care to provide them.

Do you see spirituality—in any inner form—as an honest and beneficial expression of humanity?

If so, what is that expression like?

If not, why not?


Possibly.

How would that inner form come to expression?

And yes exactly, what is that expression?

Ultimately I find "spiritually" of any sort to be completely useless and destructive if it does not connect one to the outer world.

Further I'd say that that connection, in any meaningful sense, comes in direct relation to the material world.

Ultimately I'd say that this "spirituality" thingie is best practiced through one's daily life and only to be considered abstractly after everyone has food in their belly.


Heres a great quote from the lounge ( thanks to Hammer of Los :) )

"And so there is exactly as much suffering and pain in the world as there is interest only in the physical and the material. The scales are held in perfect balance; the one does not outweigh the other - so many passions and desires on the one side, so much illness and pain on the other."

Rudolph Steiner.
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Postby chlamor » Sat Apr 26, 2008 10:25 pm

slimmouse wrote:
chlamor wrote:
Eldritch wrote:Chlamor, these are direct questions that your posts inspire. I'd be interested in your answers, should you care to provide them.

Do you see spirituality—in any inner form—as an honest and beneficial expression of humanity?

If so, what is that expression like?

If not, why not?


Possibly.

How would that inner form come to expression?

And yes exactly, what is that expression?

Ultimately I find "spiritually" of any sort to be completely useless and destructive if it does not connect one to the outer world.

Further I'd say that that connection, in any meaningful sense, comes in direct relation to the material world.

Ultimately I'd say that this "spirituality" thingie is best practiced through one's daily life and only to be considered abstractly after everyone has food in their belly.


Heres a great quote from the lounge ( thanks to Hammer of Los :) )

"And so there is exactly as much suffering and pain in the world as there is interest only in the physical and the material. The scales are held in perfect balance; the one does not outweigh the other - so many passions and desires on the one side, so much illness and pain on the other."

Rudolph Steiner.


Oh geez Steiner.

Hopefully we won't get into his plant purity gene supremacy stuff.

His equation is more than a little off but so were his ideological Teutonic tendencies.
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Postby Eldritch » Sat Apr 26, 2008 10:33 pm

chlamor wrote:
Eldritch wrote:Chlamor, these are direct questions that your posts inspire. I'd be interested in your answers, should you care to provide them.

Do you see spirituality—in any inner form—as an honest and beneficial expression of humanity?

If so, what is that expression like?

If not, why not?


Possibly.

How would that inner form come to expression?

And yes exactly, what is that expression?

Ultimately I find "spiritually" of any sort to be completely useless and destructive if it does not connect one to the outer world.

Further I'd say that that connection, in any meaningful sense, comes in direct relation to the material world.

Ultimately I'd say that this "spirituality" thingie is best practiced through one's daily life and only to be considered abstractly after everyone has food in their belly.


Thank you. I don't disagree with that, not substantively anyway. What's more, I think you're also right to be suspicious of organized spiritualities and religions; while some may be beneficial, I've found that most are not. I also agree that the "food in the belly" test is a good one from which to evaluate a particular form of spirituality, as beneficial or destructive.

Although I do practice an inner form of spirituality that connects me to the outer world, I am not a member of any organized religion—nor would I be, ever—and I find "the new age" to be narcissistic and empty, overall. What's more, much of the so-called "new age" was intentionally constructed as a means of managing human behavior, developed and implemented by corporate and government entities with deep pockets and even deeper interests in doing just that. And on a massive scale.

As people become aware of how deeply we have been conned in spiritual matters—for how long and in how many different ways!—who can blame them for not wanting to be conned again?

Having said all of that, I've also observed that good inner work does lead to good outer work—and vice versa.

And, "Fool's gold exists because there is real gold."
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Postby slimmouse » Sat Apr 26, 2008 10:34 pm

chlamor wrote:

Heres a great quote from the lounge ( thanks to Hammer of Los :) )

"And so there is exactly as much suffering and pain in the world as there is interest only in the physical and the material. The scales are held in perfect balance; the one does not outweigh the other - so many passions and desires on the one side, so much illness and pain on the other."

Rudolph Steiner.

Oh geez Steiner.

Hopefully we won't get into his plant purity gene supremacy stuff.

His equation is more than a little off but so were his ideological Teutonic tendencies.


And your thoughts on the message , as opposed to your aspersions against the messenger ?
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Postby erosoplier » Sat Apr 26, 2008 11:13 pm

Interesting juxtaposition - chlamor's thoughts on spirituality (which I agree with) and the Steiner quote (which I agree with).

I think it's taking Steiner out of context to say that he would be against what chlamor is saying. My take (from the little I know of Steiner) is that he was warning against excessive materialism, he wasn't promoting asceticism.

In fact I can bend it around and see that both chlamor and Steiner are devotees of the middle path - both want a just-right amount of materialism in their worldview and in the world. A Lexus is too much materialism, whereas enough food, clean water, adequate health-care, and a roof over one's head is (at the bottom end of) a just-right level of materialism.

Let's not lose sight of the fact that capitalism can coexist with the more ethereal versions of spirituality just fine. It's only when spirituality takes itself seriously and wants to change the world that it turns into a sinister threat to the social order and all that is fair and just in the world. Spirituality has been through a selection process over the last century, where the more "spiritual" variants, and/or the more disingenuous variants are encouraged by the social order, and the versions which seek to permanently alter the social order are left to wither on the vine, or are attacked outright.
Last edited by erosoplier on Sun Apr 27, 2008 10:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
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