""Watergate-level event" is about to occur in

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Re: James Moore

Postby chiggerbit » Thu Oct 20, 2005 11:51 pm

Sorry, I don't buy it . It is much simpler, more animalistic. It is just plain greed. These people have no ability to delay gratification to generations beyond their own. They MUST benefit themselves, before they consider the future generations. Greed trumps all. Greed must be experienced today before it is expressed tomorrow. Greed would even sacrifice future generations. Greed is the here and now. It has little or no future reference. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: James Moore

Postby dbeach » Fri Oct 21, 2005 12:18 am

it was a ruff read for me.<br><br>maybe they need to sell stuff..who knows?<br>but the pt for me is to carry on and keep pressure on the DC establishment..IF we can fry these fish..MAYBE more and even bigger ones can be netted. ..its a sea of criminals just waiting to be caught<br><br>..BUT I will savor ANY Victory and enjoy some R.& R. <p></p><i></i>
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Greed and the Queen

Postby sunny » Fri Oct 21, 2005 12:22 am

anti, the immense wealth of the Queen puts her on my radar of suspicious elites, and re-colonization may certainly be her plan, but I'll have to agree with chigger, on this side of the Atlantic, the greed of Bushligula and his courtiers is what is making US miserable. Granted, their brand of greed had no parallel in history, as far as I am able to determine, and a complete sellout to the Brits, or anybody else for that matter, is not beyond the realm of possibility. <p></p><i></i>
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another piece?

Postby firstimer » Fri Oct 21, 2005 2:43 am

Alright I think I have a piece that hasn't been discussed yet. first read this :<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/10/18/221412/16">www.dailykos.com/story/20.../221412/16</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>if you havent already. Daily Kos is speculating about the origin of the Plame mispelling.<br><br>Chalabi may have provided the Flame name in the lying game. I'm guessing that Flame was a tag. Subtle misinfo to track leaks from the CIA. Who did chalabi get that info from?<br><br>Edward J. von Kloberg III?<br><br>murdered under suspicious circumstances. Fell from tower with article about who in his pocket? Bush<br><br>wasn't the PDB traced from Bush to Gannon to Kloberg to Chalabi?<br><br>can't find proof, maybe voice of the whitehouse?<br><br>HOWDEYDODAT?<br><br>that could provide motive for murder pointing to a lonely president who was just trying to have some fun.<br><br>here is google cache---- article from Taiwan times gone<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:tMRtpptHNyUJ:www.etaiwannews.com/Perspective/2005/05/05/1115260872.htm+fell+from+tower+with+picture+of+bush+in+pocket&hl=en&client=safari">64.233.161.104/search?q=c...ent=safari</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br><br>         <br>Friday, October 21, 2005<br>Lobbyist for famous tyrants dies in leap off Rome tower<br><br>2005-05-05 / Associated Press / By WILLIAM C. MANN<br><br>Edward J. von Kloberg III made his fortune representing the pariahs of the world and his reputation living with panache in a double penthouse apartment in an elite Washington neighborhood.<br><br>He died with the same sort of grand gesture, flinging himself from the tower of an Italian castle with a magazine in his pocket that had on its cover a picture of von Kloberg receiving an award from former U.S. President George H.W. Bush.<br><br>As a lobbyist, von Kloberg represented the likes of Iraq's Saddam Hussein, Romania's Nicolae Ceausescu, Zaire's Mobutu Sese Seko, Samuel K. Doe of Liberia, and Burma's military junta. His clients weren't all notorious, however. According to the Justice Department's Foreign Agent Registry in 2001, his last active year as a lobbyist, von Kloberg's clients also included Bahrain, Gambia, Lithuania, Slovakia and Slovenia.<br><br>U.S. Consulate officials in Rome confirmed that von Kloberg died Sunday, an apparent suicide, and a note was found on his body.<br><br>Tragic love affair<br><br>A Roman police official, speaking on condition of anonymity, gave the details of his death: He threw himself from a tower of Rome's Castel St. Angelo and had a copy of a 1997 issue of Prime Magazine with the cover featuring von Kloberg and Bush and a suicide note addressed to the Italian police. It gave the name and telephone number of von Kloberg's former boyfriend and indicated von Kloberg's suicide was prompted by the man's refusal to resume their relationship.<br><br>Such an end for the 63-year-old lobbyist would not have surprised his acquaintances in Washington during the last two decades of the 20th century. His flamboyance was matched only by his lavish lifestyle.<br><br>In reporting von Kloberg's death on Tuesday, The Washington Post said the lobbyist telephoned the newspaper months ago "to arrange an interview that he hoped would lead to a better understanding of his life."<br><br>The Post said he told the interviewer that his client list brought him greater challenges but greater rewards than had he represented more reputable people.<br><br>No matter how poor the country, von Kloberg's return was immense. The Post said he "tested" his clients by asking them to pay his first-class air fare plus US$5,000 a day.<br><br>Laurent Kabila, who seized power in Congo after overthrowing Mobutu in 1997, was said to have paid von Kloberg US$500,000 for six months' work.<br><br>In a 1999 interview for The Washington Diplomat, a magazine, journalist Larry Luxner asked von Kloberg if he was ever ashamed of representing people viewed by most as tyrants.<br><br>"Shame is for sissies," Luxner said von Kloberg told him, using a favorite phrase. "My job is to give my clients the best advice: the truth. If they're a basket-case, they need to know it. I never hide the warts, but show them what they can do better."<br><br>He told Luxner that he represented Saddam's Iraq in the years 1984-87, after the United States had re-established relations. "The slogan then was, 'If Iraq fell, the Gulf would fall,'" von Kloberg said.<br><br>The Post said von Kloberg had been in poor health, with cancer, diabetes and an inner-ear condition that caused a continual ringing sensation.<br><br>His company, Washington World Group Ltd., appears to have died. Two telephone numbers are listed as out of service, and the Web site has been taken down.<br><br>In his heyday, however, von Kloberg lived elaborately.<br><br>The Washington Diplomat described a mid-2001 party in von Kloberg's penthouse:<br><br>"Donning black slippers embroidered with a devil holding a pitchfork, international publicist and lobbyist Edward J. von Kloberg III greeted guests. ...<br><br>"The group of more than 100 diplomats, government officials and socialites came to watch the investiture of von Kloberg by the exiled Rwandan king, Kigeli V, and to bid farewell to Clinton administration deputy chief of protocol Fred DuVal.<br><br>"The 7-foot-2 king (2.2 meters) touched the tip of a sword once owned by Ethiopian Emperor Haile Selassie on each of von Kloberg's shoulders after conferring on him the Chevalier Grand Croix of the Royal Order of the Intare. 'The Intare means the Lion,' explained the king as he praised von Kloberg as, 'a great friend of Africa and a true aristocrat.'"<br><br>Edward Joseph Kloberg III was born Jan. 9, 1942, in New York, where his father was an engineer who built housing projects. He added "van" to his surname in the 1960s and later changed it to "von" because he thought it sounded more distinguished.<br><br>Von Kloberg flunked out of Princeton University and graduated from Rider College in Lawrenceville, New Jersey, in 1965. He received a master's degree in history from American University, where he advanced to be the dean of admissions and financial aid.<br><br>In 1982, von Kloberg began his public relations and lobbying business, later renamed the Washington World Group.<br><br>In 2002, he retired after suffering a heart attack during a flight from the Ivory Coast to Paris.<br><br>Survivors include his companion, Darius Monkevicius of Rome; and a sister, Carol van Kloberg of Saratoga Springs, New York.By WILLIAM C. MANN<br><br>associated press<br><br>WASHINGTON, United States<br><br>Edward J. von Kloberg III made his fortune representing the pariahs of the world and his reputation living with panache in a double penthouse apartment in an elite Washington neighborhood.<br><br>He died with the same sort of grand gesture, flinging himself from the tower of an Italian castle with a magazine in his pocket that had on its cover a picture of von Kloberg receiving an award from former U.S. President George H.W. Bush.<br><br>As a lobbyist, von Kloberg represented the likes of Iraq's Saddam Hussein, Romania's Nicolae Ceausescu, Zaire's Mobutu Sese Seko, Samuel K. Doe of Liberia, and Burma's military junta. His clients weren't all notorious, however. According to the Justice Department's Foreign Agent Registry in 2001, his last active year as a lobbyist, von Kloberg's clients also included Bahrain, Gambia, Lithuania, Slovakia and Slovenia.<br><br>U.S. Consulate officials in Rome confirmed that von Kloberg died Sunday, an apparent suicide, and a note was found on his body.<br><br>Tragic love affair<br><br>A Roman police official, speaking on condition of anonymity, gave the details of his death: He threw himself from a tower of Rome's Castel St. Angelo and had a copy of a 1997 issue of Prime Magazine with the cover featuring von Kloberg and Bush and a suicide note addressed to the Italian police. It gave the name and telephone number of von Kloberg's former boyfriend and indicated von Kloberg's suicide was prompted by the man's refusal to resume their relationship.<br><br>Such an end for the 63-year-old lobbyist would not have surprised his acquaintances in Washington during the last two decades of the 20th century. His flamboyance was matched only by his lavish lifestyle.<br><br>In reporting von Kloberg's death on Tuesday, The Washington Post said the lobbyist telephoned the newspaper months ago "to arrange an interview that he hoped would lead to a better understanding of his life."<br><br>The Post said he told the interviewer that his client list brought him greater challenges but greater rewards than had he represented more reputable people.<br><br>No matter how poor the country, von Kloberg's return was immense. The Post said he "tested" his clients by asking them to pay his first-class air fare plus US$5,000 a day.<br><br>Laurent Kabila, who seized power in Congo after overthrowing Mobutu in 1997, was said to have paid von Kloberg US$500,000 for six months' work.<br><br>In a 1999 interview for The Washington Diplomat, a magazine, journalist Larry Luxner asked von Kloberg if he was ever ashamed of representing people viewed by most as tyrants.<br><br>"Shame is for sissies," Luxner said von Kloberg told him, using a favorite phrase. "My job is to give my clients the best advice: the truth. If they're a basket-case, they need to know it. I never hide the warts, but show them what they can do better."<br><br>He told Luxner that he represented Saddam's Iraq in the years 1984-87, after the United States had re-established relations. "The slogan then was, 'If Iraq fell, the Gulf would fall,'" von Kloberg said.<br><br>The Post said von Kloberg had been in poor health, with cancer, diabetes and an inner-ear condition that caused a continual ringing sensation.<br><br>His company, Washington World Group Ltd., appears to have died. Two telephone numbers are listed as out of service, and the Web site has been taken down.<br><br>In his heyday, however, von Kloberg lived elaborately.<br><br>The Washington Diplomat described a mid-2001 party in von Kloberg's penthouse:<br><br>"Donning black slippers embroidered with a devil holding a pitchfork, international publicist and lobbyist Edward J. von Kloberg III greeted guests. ...<br><br>"The group of more than 100 diplomats, government officials and socialites came to watch the investiture of von Kloberg by the exiled Rwandan king, Kigeli V, and to bid farewell to Clinton administration deputy chief of protocol Fred DuVal.<br><br>"The 7-foot-2 king (2.2 meters) touched the tip of a sword once owned by Ethiopian Emperor Haile Selassie on each of von Kloberg's shoulders after conferring on him the Chevalier Grand Croix of the Royal Order of the Intare. 'The Intare means the Lion,' explained the king as he praised von Kloberg as, 'a great friend of Africa and a true aristocrat.'"<br><br>Edward Joseph Kloberg III was born Jan. 9, 1942, in New York, where his father was an engineer who built housing projects. He added "van" to his surname in the 1960s and later changed it to "von" because he thought it sounded more distinguished.<br><br>Von Kloberg flunked out of Princeton University and graduated from Rider College in Lawrenceville, New Jersey, in 1965. He received a master's degree in history from American University, where he advanced to be the dean of admissions and financial aid.<br><br>In 1982, von Kloberg began his public relations and lobbying business, later renamed the Washington World Group.<br><br>In 2002, he retired after suffering a heart attack during a flight from the Ivory Coast to Paris.<br><br>Survivors include his companion, Darius Monkevicius of Rome; and a sister, Carol van Kloberg of Saratoga Springs, New York.<br><br><br>firstimer <p></p><i></i>
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Re: another piece?

Postby antiaristo » Fri Oct 21, 2005 6:46 am

From needlenose a few days ago. Some insight into the dynamics.<br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>Late last night, this New York Daily News story drove all sorts of wild blog-esque speculation:<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>A special prosecutor's intensifying focus into who outed a CIA spy has raised questions whether Vice President Cheney himself is involved, knowledgeable sources confirmed yesterday.<br><br>. . . Cheney's name has come up amid indications Fitzgerald may be edging closer to a blockbuster conspiracy charge - with help from a secret snitch.<br><br>"They have got a senior cooperating witness - someone who is giving them all of that," a source who has been questioned in the leak probe told the Daily News yesterday.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Today, Raw Story claims to know who's wearing the other shoe to be dropped:<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>A senior aide to Vice President Dick Cheney is cooperating with special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald in the outing of CIA agent Valerie Plame Wilson, sources close to the investigation say.<br><br>Individuals familiar with Fitzgerald’s case tell Raw Story that John Hannah, a senior national security aide on loan to Vice President Dick Cheney from the offices of then-Under Secretary of State for Arms Control and International Security Affairs, John Bolton, was named as a target of Fitzgerald’s probe. They say he was told in recent weeks that he could face imminent indictment for his role in leaking Plame-Wilson’s name to reporters unless he cooperated with the investigation<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->.<br><br>If true, this suggests (as Anonymous Liberal and Jeralyn Merritt have already noted) that Richard Sale of UPI scored a hall-of-fame scoop back in <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>February 2004</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->, when he wrote:<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Federal law enforcement officials said that they have developed hard evidence of possible criminal misconduct by two employees of Vice President Dick Cheney's office related to the unlawful exposure of a CIA officer's identity last year. . . .<br><br>According to these sources, John Hannah and Cheney's chief of staff Lewis "Scooter" Libby were the two Cheney employees. "We believe that Hannah was the major player in this," one federal law enforcement officer said. Calls to the vice president's office were not returned. Hannah and Libby did not return calls.<br><br>. . . The strategy of the FBI is to make clear to Hannah "that he faces a real possibility of doing jail time," as a way to pressure him to name superiors, one federal law enforcement official said.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br><br>I never posted about this article, because I kept waiting for some follow-up or confirmation -- but as far as I know, Sale didn't even write any more Plame articles, and no one else picked up the ball on Hannah. (I see from a Google News search that Sale has apparently been covering the AIPAC investigation, so it might be worthwhile to take a closer look at his stories on that front for added revelations.)<br><br>If Hannah waited until this past week before cooperating, then apparently it took him a long time to fold (which I guess is why he's still working at the White House). <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>But it shows how much of this investigation Fitzgerald had in the bag early on.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--></em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> <br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.needlenose.com/node/view/2123">www.needlenose.com/node/view/2123</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: another piece?

Postby dbeach » Fri Oct 21, 2005 10:00 am

"But it shows how much of this investigation Fitzgerald had in the bag early on. "<br><br>an excellent FRI morn reminder...what else does Mr Fitz already have in the bag..IS IT THE TREASON of poppy o the real controller of the US govt since 1980s after he tried to knock off ronnie raygun and ronnie is rumoured to have suffered a stroke after the hit????<br> <p></p><i></i>
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grrr

Postby Jen » Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:04 am

Hee. So happy to see that some posters here are maintaining at least a little bit of hope that Fitzy plans to charge at least a couple members of the cabal with the whole truckload. But, as I've posted before: how would the media EVER report on that? Not like I think Fitz cares or should, but if the indictments come down and they're for 793/94...what I'll be tuning in for is the MSM's scramble to spin. <p></p><i></i>
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Repugs Deserting Sinking Ship

Postby Col Quisp » Fri Oct 21, 2005 12:40 pm

Interesting reference to the Declaration of Independence, in light of antiaristo's comments earlier:<br><br>From Capitol Hill Blue:<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_7560.shtml">www.capitolhillblue.com/a...7560.shtml</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br><br>“I’m not sure the State Department even exists anymore,” Col. Larry Wilkerson, Powell’s chief of staff, told the audience of journalists and scholars. “It, like so many others things, have been destroyed by George W. Bush’s ‘cowboyism.’”<br><br>Wilkerson dismisses the Administration’s attempts to improve America’s image abroad.<br><br>“You can’t sell shit,” he said.<br><br>Wilkerson isn’t the only high-profile Republican operative bailing on Bush. Bruce Bartlett, who served as a Senior Policy Advisor in Bush’s father’s administration, is about to release a book: Imposter: How George W. Bush Bankrupted America and Destroyed the Reagan Legacy. Bartlett lost his job at the National Center for Policy Analysis, a conservative Texas think tank, when word of his book project leaked out.<br><br>Republicans, the last to finally acknowledge the lies and duplicity of the Bush White House, no longer trust the Administration. When current Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice testified before Congress this week and claimed “significant progress” in Iraq, Republican Senator Lincoln Chaffee of Rhode Island fired back: “Well, we all wish that were true, but we can't kid ourselves, either.”<br><br>But Wilkerson, a veteran with 31 years in the Marines and a former director of the Marine War College, sums up what, sadly, will be the legacy of George W. Bush:<br><br>“If there is a nuclear terrorist attack or a major pandemic you are going to see the ineptitude of this government in a way that'll take you back to the Declaration of Independence.”<br> <p></p><i></i>
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James Moore / Michael Ledeen

Postby heyjt » Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:20 pm

Moore goes into detail about Ledeen and the origins of the forged Niger documents. They were in the hands of Italian intelligence at the time.<br> Anybody else happen to tie this in with the killing of the Italian intel guy that rescued the Italian journalist?<br> What if he was indeed the "target", What if he knew about the origin of the forged documents??? <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Repugs Deserting Sinking Ship

Postby dbeach » Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:23 pm

“If there is a nuclear terrorist attack or a major pandemic you are going to see the ineptitude of this government in a way that'll take you back to the Declaration of Independence"<br><br>POWER STATEMENT.Whats it mean???<br><br>WOW .. to hear US Military [retired}officers criticize the TREASON is... wow.<br><br>WHEN the active duty officers gonna arrest bush/cheny?<br><br>B 4 they attack the USA with nukes..<br><br>they are waiting ever so long...maybe thinking Fitzgerald will work most of the problems out in the courts...<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Repugs Deserting Sinking Ship

Postby Col Quisp » Fri Oct 21, 2005 2:19 pm

Interesting spin (implicating CIA in plot vs. Prez)<br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.nationalledger.com/artman/publish/printer_1263.shtml">www.nationalledger.com/ar...1263.shtml</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br> From NationalLedger.com<br><br>News Analysis<br>Was the Joe Wilson Valerie Plame Affair a CIA Plot?<br>By Cliff Kincaid<br>Oct 21, 2005<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The media version of the CIA leak case is that the White House illegally revealed a CIA employee’s identity because her husband, Joseph Wilson, was an administration critic.<br><br>But former prosecutor Joseph E. diGenova says the real story is that the CIA “launched a covert operation” against the President when it sent Wilson on the mission to Africa to investigate the Iraq-uranium link. DiGenova, a former Independent Counsel who prosecuted several high-profile cases and has extensive experience on Capitol Hill, including as counsel to several Senate committees, is optimistic that Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald will figure it all out.<br><br>DiGenova tells this columnist, “It seems to me somewhat strange, in terms of CIA tradecraft, that if you were really attempting to protect the identity of a covert officer, why would you send her husband overseas on a mission, without a confidentiality agreement, and then allow him when he came back to the United States to write an op-ed piece in the New York Times about it.”<br><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>more at link.<br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: ""Watergate-level event" is about to occu

Postby chiggerbit » Fri Oct 21, 2005 3:20 pm

Get ready--looks like Fitzy is setting the stage by establishing his credentials:<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/linkset/2005/04/11/LI2005041100879.html">www.washingtonpost.com/wp...00879.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> <p></p><i></i>
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Comments from John Dean

Postby Peachtree Pam » Fri Oct 21, 2005 3:22 pm

I don't agree with everything he says, but one can certainly say he has experience in these situations. I definately think Cheney is a target.<br>--------------------------<br>Waiting For The Valerie Plame Wilson Grand Jury: The Big Question Is Whether Dick Cheney Was a Target<br>By JOHN W. DEAN <br>---- <br>Friday, Oct. 21, 2005<br><br>Washington is truly abuzz with rumors about what Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald may, or may not do, as his grand jury comes to the close of its almost two-year investigation of the leak of Valerie Plame Wilson's covert status at the CIA. As I write, it appears that Fitzgerald will act within the next few days.<br><br>Unidentified government officials, The New York Times reports, say that Fitzgerald "will not make up his mind about any charges until next week." With his grand jury expiring on October 28, 2005, he is down to only a few options: <br><br> <br> <br>First, he could close down his Washington office; return to his work in Chicago, where he serves as the U.S. Attorney; and simply issue a statement that his investigation has ended. (He has no authority to write a report, for the information he has obtained is subject to Rule 6(e) of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure, and thus is secret).<br><br>Second, he could extend the grand jury for whatever time he needs to complete his investigation. And third, he could issue one or more indictments.<br><br>Fitzgerald, and those who work for him, have acted throughout the investigation just as prosecutors should. Lips are zipped. Fitzgerald has held his information so close to his chest that, as one wag put it, he's got it in his underpants. Accordingly, Washington is filled with rumors.<br><br>The Best Information Available<br><br>While I have not begun to search all the available sources, so I can only speak to a limited universe, I can tell you who has consistently provided information and steady reports. <br><br>Unfortunately, The New York Times, which should own the story, does not. Rather, in the recent, crucial weeks, some of the best information has been coming from a very unlikely source, The National Journal. The National Journal, as readers may know, is a pricey Washington-insider weekly subscription report, with daily web updates; given the importance of the story, it has been making available the exclusive reporting of Murray Waas, who appears to be one the few reporters with meaningful access.<br><br>Editor & Publisher, which focuses on the newspaper industry, has been on top of the story from the outset, keeping an eye on who is doing the more credible reporting. And the national news magazines, Time and Newsweek have been hanging in. <br><br>The Associated Press, as usual, is also on top of the story. But some of the most surprising information has come from the business wire of Bloomberg. <br><br>In short, none of those who are really on top of the story are partisan rags; rather, they are straight-shooting journalists who are seeking to sort out what is occurring.<br><br>This, however, is not to overlook several blogs, which have been reliable, and plugged into the story, or have taken the time to analyze what is out there and have occasionally broken fresh news. In this category, I would place high on the list the Daily Kos, Josh Marshal's TPM, and the Huffington Post, where Larry O'Donnell has provided some good insider tips.<br><br>Something is going to happen, and, I think, fairly soon. It has been many years since my conversations with well placed friends in Washington have reflected the sort of inside-the-Beltway tension that is now mounting. This tension was not matched during the Whitewater/Lewinsky investigation, nor during Iran-Contra. But it is very reminiscent of the wait for the U.S. Supreme Court to rule in Nixon v. United States - the decision that famously forced Nixon to turn over his secretly recorded taped conversations -- and ended his presidency.<br><br>The similarity is, of course, because there is the real potential that this investigation and prosecution could reach right into the top of the Bush White House. How high is the source in question? Could it be George Bush himself? Dick Cheney? Karl Rove? Scooter Libby? My guess is that, in different ways, all four likely were involved in the exposure of Plame's covert identity.<br><br>Let me give you my read on who the highest-level targets of Fitzgerald's investigation probably are, and what will likely happen to them.<br><br>Who Can, And Who Can't, Be Indicted?<br><br>During Watergate, the Watergate Special Prosecutor did considerable research on whether or not a sitting president could be indicted. While the law is not black letter, the consensus of considered opinion is that he cannot. <br><br>First, there is the Constitutional language that appears to make impeachment and removal the only solution for presidential misconduct. There is also the point that conduct bad enough to constitute a serious crime, is likely also bad enough for impeachment -- and that, after impeachment removal, of course, an ex-president can be indicted. <br><br>On a more practical level, a president can remove any federal prosecutor who might indict him, for they all serve at his pleasure.<br><br>As for vice presidents, they can be indicted. Indeed, Vice President Aaron Burr was indicted by two states for the murder of Alexander Hamilton. Vice President Spiro Agnew negotiated an indictment for failing to pay taxes (rather than bribery), and resigned from office. <br><br>The problem with an indicted vice president, however, is that unless he resigns, he remains in office until impeached by the House of Representatives, and convicted by the Senate. That leads to a potentially absurd situation: As the presiding office of the Senate, a vice president who had been impeached could preside over his own trial. (The Constitution failed to account for this situation by naming another official who could preside -- a slight flaw, to say the least.) <br><br>Clearly, anyone below the office of president can be indicted. But again, unless the president (or vice president) demands that official's resignation, or he resigns voluntarily, he could serve unless impeached. <br><br>As a practical matter, of course, it is difficult to imagine anyone remaining on the president or vice president's staff if they were under indictment. But if the political situation somehow allowed that - perhaps because the indictment seemed makeweight or political, or both - then there would be no constitutional impediment to the staffer's continuing to serve, other than impeachment. (Employment contracts, however, could cover this situation if the White House so chose.)<br><br>Who Will, And Who Won't, Be Indicted?<br><br>While I may be letting the air out of some rising balloons, I think Fitzgerald's silence has fed speculation that postulates indictments way beyond the realistic potentials.<br><br>The really big fish in this case is the Vice President. And I have little doubt, based on my knowledge of the case, and of the way Cheney typically operates, that a case could be made against him.<br><br>But Fitzgerald is an experienced prosecutor, and that means only if he found himself confronted with an exceptionally egregious case (the equivalent of Spiro Agnew's taking payoffs from Maryland contractors in his Vice Presidential Office), would Fitzgerald consider indicting Vice President Dick Cheney.<br><br>Make no mistake, Fitzgerald has the power to indict anyone he finds to have violated federal law -- and there are over 4,000 criminal laws today. And understand that prosecutors who truly want to nail someone (as Kenneth Starr did with President Bill Clinton) can do just that. <br><br>But Ken Starr was not a seasoned prosecutor. And it may make a difference that Fitzgerald and Cheney are both Republicans, whereas, of course, Starr and Clinton were politically opposed. As a rule, prosecutors do not bite the hand of the party that feeds them.<br><br>At the time Fitzgerald was appointed as Special Counsel, he was given "the power and authority to make whatever prospective judgments he believes are appropriate, without having to come back to [the Deputy Attorney General, who has since resigned] or anybody else at the Justice Department for approvals" He is, in effect, attorney general with respect to this investigation.<br><br>Fitzgerald Will Probably Look to Whether the Leakers' Motivation Was National Security<br><br>All prosecutorial decisions are political. Not necessarily in the partisan sense, but rather, in the sense the prosecutor balances the seriousness of the conduct involved, with the purpose of the laws that might be violated, and his job is to act in the best interest of the United States government. <br><br>The leak of Valerie Plame Wilson's covert identity, if it was part of a plan to discredit her husband's report on his trip to Niger, is directly related to issues of "national security." After all, the Niger uranium claim was part of the basis for the Iraq War, and Joe Wilson's claim that it was bogus, and the President ought to have known as much, is intimately related to the politics of going to war - and also to national security in the sense of responding to genuine, and only genuine, threats to the United States. <br><br>But national security is a very gray area. Was the Bush/Cheney White House operating in the best interest of the country, or did they have a private agenda (oil fields in Iraq)? Did Cheney, Karl Rove, and Scooter Libby believe they had national security reasons to discredit Wilson's claims, and act accordingly? This is an area where there is no law, and it compounds the assessment of the actions of those involved.<br><br>It is difficult to envision Patrick Fitzgerald prosecuting anyone, particularly Vice President Dick Cheney, who believed they were acting for reasons of national security. While hindsight may find their judgment was wrong, and there is no question their tactics were very heavy-handed and dangerous, I am not certain that they were acting from other than what they believed to be reasons of national security. They were selling a war they felt needed to be undertaken. <br><br>In short, I cannot imagine any of them being indicted, unless they were acting for reasons other than national security. Because national security is such a gray area of the law, come next week, I can see this entire investigation coming to a remarkable anti-climax, as Fitzgerald closes down his Washington Office and returns to Chicago.<br><br>In short, I think the frenzy is about to end -- and it will not go any further. Unless, of course, these folks were foolish enough to give false statements, perjure themselves or suborn perjury, or commit obstruction of justice. If they were so stupid, Patrick Fitzgerald must stay and clean house.<br><br><br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20051021.html">writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20051021.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br> <p></p><i></i>
Peachtree Pam
 
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Patrick Fitzgerald's brand-new website

Postby Peachtree Pam » Fri Oct 21, 2005 3:57 pm

<!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/iln/osc/index.html">www.usdoj.gov/usao/iln/osc/index.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>Now why would he launch this JUST NOW? lol <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Patrick Fitzgerald's brand-new website

Postby antiaristo » Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:29 pm

Pam,<br>If you look at the Blair/MI5 thread you will see a post this afternoon about the royal prerogative.<br>This crap from Dean is an effort to bolster the "royal prerogative" powers of the C-i-C. National security trumps all.<br><br>It's "unlawful combatant" all over again.<br><br>And frankly, I doubt the grand jury would let Fitz fold his tent and walk away.<br>They're not stupid. They can surf the web. They know about CS and others.<br><br>If anyone asked me who I would trust to act in the public interest I would answer those that have it the worst. I don't doubt the black population of DC know a lot more about the corruption within the Federal Government.<br><br>The Fitz website is generating lots of excitement. I think it signals engagement with the blogger community. Fitz can't be in any doubt now about the trustworthiness of the MSM, can he? But he knows where his allies are located.<br><br>And we are moving into the PR phase of the game. <p></p><i></i>
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