Those "Liberals"

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Those "Liberals"

Postby Eldritch » Thu May 08, 2008 6:51 pm

There has been some discussion on several other threads on this board concerning "liberals." Part of that discussion involves the sentiment that for some people the term, "liberal," has taken on a a sort of pejorative meaning or tone.

For the greater part, I think being a "liberal" is a good thing. I'm a liberal, and I'm happy to say so.

Although far from being perfect, there is much to be admired about "liberals" and in the larger legacy that the historic "liberal struggle" has offered this nation in general and to its citizens in particular.

I'm not sure if the following essay has been posted before on this forum or not, but it might be relevant to the larger discussion on "liberals." (Unfortunately, I do not know the name of the author, or I would happily offer that person credit for having written this piece.)

Joe's Day

Joe gets up at 6 a.m. and fills his coffeepot with water to prepare his morning coffee. The water is clean and good because some tree-hugging liberal fought for minimum water quality standards.

With his first swallow of water, he takes his daily medication. His medications are safe to take because some stupid commie liberal fought to insure their safety and that they work as advertised. All but $10 of his medications are paid for by his employer's medical plan because some liberal union workers fought their employers for paid medical insurance - now Joe gets it too.

He prepares his morning breakfast, bacon and eggs. Joe's bacon is safe to eat because some girly-man liberal fought for laws to regulate the meat packing industry.

In the morning shower, Joe reaches for his shampoo. His bottle is properly labeled with each ingredient and its amount in the total contents because some crybaby liberal fought for his right to know what he was putting on his body. Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air he breathes is clean because some environmentalist wacko liberal fought for laws to stop industries from polluting our air.

He walks to the subway station for his government-subsidized ride to work. It saves him considerable money in parking and transportation fees because some fancy-pants liberal fought for affordable public transportation, which gives everyone the opportunity to be a contributor.

Joe begins his workday. He has a good job with decent pay, medical benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because some lazy liberal union members fought and died for these working standards. Joe's employer pays these standards because Joe's employer doesn't want his employees to call the union. If Joe is hurt on the job or becomes unemployed, he'll get a worker compensation or unemployment check because some stupid liberal didn't think he should lose his home because of his temporary
misfortune.

It's noontime and Joe needs to make a bank deposit so he can pay some bills. Joe's deposit is federally insured by the FSLIC because some godless liberal wanted to protect Joe's money from unscrupulous bankers who ruined the banking system before the Great Depression.

Joe has to pay his Fannie Mae-underwritten mortgage and his below-market federal student loan because some elitist liberal decided that Joe and the government would be better off if he was educated and earned more money over his lifetime.

Joe is home from work. He plans to visit his father this evening at his farm home in the country. He gets in his car for the drive. His car is among the safest in the world because some America-hating liberal fought for car safety standards.

He arrives at his boyhood home. His was the third generation to live in the house financed by Farmers' Home Administration because bankers didn't want to make rural loans. The house didn't have electricity until some big government liberal stuck his nose where it didn't belong and demanded rural electrification. He is happy to see his father, who is now retired. His father lives on Social Security and a union pension because some wine drinking, cheese eating liberal made sure he could take care of himself so Joe wouldn't have to.

Joe gets back in his car for the ride home, and turns on a radio talk show. The radio host keeps saying that liberals are bad and conservatives are good. He doesn't mention that the beloved Republicans have fought against every protection and benefit Joe enjoyed throughout his day.

Joe agrees: "We don't need those big government liberals ruining our lives! After all, I'm a self-made man who believes everyone should take care of themselves, just like I have."
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Postby 8bitagent » Thu May 08, 2008 7:44 pm

I might give liberals in America some tough love regarding their views on things(9/11, Afghanistan, supporting of Democrat corporate candidates, worshipping Clinton, etc) *but*...I'd rather hang around liberals than right wingers any day of the week.
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Postby IanEye » Thu May 08, 2008 7:56 pm

If an individual previously defined as a 'Liberal' were to go on 'Hannity & Colmes' and tear Sean Hannity a new asshole, just give him a straight up critical beatdown, that individual would never again be described as a "Liberal" again on Fox News.

Because Fox News cannot afford to have part of the definition of "Liberal" be, 'someone who shoved every one of Conservative Sean Hannity's talking points down his throat'. The definition of "Liberal" must be "weak, ineffectual, flip-flopper, etc". If Fox News views you as the enemy they will define you as a "Liberal" for as long as they can, but they will abandon the term if they have to.

Oh, and when you stand up to these Fascists they don't call you a "Leftist" either. They call you a "Radical".

Labels are masks.
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Postby Eldritch » Thu May 08, 2008 8:02 pm

8bitagent wrote:I might give liberals in America some tough love regarding their views on things(9/11, Afghanistan, supporting of Democrat corporate candidates, worshipping Clinton, etc) *but*...I'd rather hang around liberals than right wingers any day of the week.


I agree.

Many liberals would disagree with me, but in my case "liberal" does not equal "Democrat"—in fact, at least on the national level, I would say emphatically not.

I may be a liberal, but I tend to agree with you, 8bit, on the broad brushstrokes of 9/11, Afghanistan, and the mainstream political system—and probably a whole lot of other things besides.
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Postby 8bitagent » Thu May 08, 2008 8:16 pm

Eldritch wrote:
8bitagent wrote:I might give liberals in America some tough love regarding their views on things(9/11, Afghanistan, supporting of Democrat corporate candidates, worshipping Clinton, etc) *but*...I'd rather hang around liberals than right wingers any day of the week.


I agree.

Many liberals would disagree with me, but in my case "liberal" does not equal "Democrat."

I may be a liberal, but I tend to agree with you, 8bit, on the broad brushstrokes of 9/11, Afghanistan, and the mainstream political system—and probably a whole lot of other things besides.


Well...if someone was to ask me my views on gay marriage, economy, war, and every other hot button issue...I'd most likely fit right in line with a staunch "progressive liberal".

Though, I will admit...a part of me has a slight affinity for the 90's era Alex Jones Patriot militia gun toting "anti government" guy stalking about the UN, NWO, chemtrails and black helicopters...so famously packaged as "Dale Gribble" in the Fox cartoon King of the Hill:)
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Postby chlamor » Thu May 08, 2008 10:14 pm

Liberalism excludes and attacks socialism, yet embraces and defends libertarianism and authoritarianism.

Bait and switch- it is fine to be a socialist, but advocating socialism is strictly forbidden. At the same time, libertarianism and authoritarianism may not be challenged.

It is important that we understand exactly how this works.

By "libertarianism" I mean "my" unfettered freedom as an individual to pursue personal enlightenment and success. By "authoritarianism" I mean the calls for using armed agents of the state to suppress neighbors who are not enlightened or successful and who may be annoying or bothering "me", whether or not they are actually doing anything to "me", or whom make "me" feel threatened or fearful in some way, if only in "my" imagination.

Liberalism is a cobbled together set of causes each based on one of two positions on a limited number of issues. Some causes require authoritarianism to advance, some libertarianism, and all are subject to debate within the liberal community to some extent between libertarian and authoritarian points of view. Both are portrayed as "freedom;" freedom to pursue enlightened and progressive paths of self-actualization on the one hand without any interference or even questioning, and freedom from having to co-exist with less enlightened individuals.

Socialism is the recognition of class struggle and the consistent application of class analysis to political problems. It is important to note that the debate between liberalism and socialism is not a debate between two coherent theories. Liberals suppress socialism not so much because it is the wrong theory, but rather because they are resistant to any theory being applied to politics. Political theory interferes with the cult of personal growth and self-actualization.

When liberals talk about freedom, a socialist would ask freedom for whom, and freedom from whom, and would point out that in all cases the winning hand in any argument will be that view that best supports the interests of the ruling class. That socialist view is quite literally not permitted and will be ruthlessly suppressed. If expressed, it will be characterized as either authoritarian or libertarian, depending upon which of the two poles is prevailing in the particular liberal cause that is being debated.

All of the arguments among liberals are between authoritarian and libertarian points of view. Challenge authoritarianism, such as gun control, and you will be accused of advocating that people not be protected from bad guys - how could you??? Challenge libertarianism and you will be accused of advocating the suppression of individual freedom - how could you??? In other words, ironically, should you challenge authoritarianism you will be accused of being a libertarian; challenge libertarianism and you will be accused of being authoritarian. Of course, as a socialist, your arguments are neither, but since those are the only possible two alternatives permitted for consideration, you will be accused of one or the other, depending on the context.

Liberalism is of course both authoritarian and libertarian - maximum freedom is to be granted to enlightened individuals and maximum restrictions and punishments are to be meted out to unenlightened individuals. Since enlightenment is a function of privilege, and privilege is a function of class, the ruling class and its most committed sycophants win, and the rest of us lose. The hidden agenda behind all of the bitter arguments among liberals are about which of the two contradictory positions - authoritarian and libertarian - will best advance the interests of the ruling class. Since that must be disguised, there is tremendous confusion in liberalism, and any hint of socialist point of view must be exterminated by any means necessary.

So the liberal, using resources that few have access to, buys an acre or two and sets up an organic garden. This is seen as a form of personal expression and as acting on personal (spiritual) values. The federal government is then seen as authoritarian if it tells the liberal that using manure for fertilizer carries an E. Coli risk, or tells the liberal that their cider or milk must be pasteurized or carry a warning label, or says that the animals must be tagged to track various livestock diseases. But the liberal has no problem calling on the federal government to harass and persecute his neighbor, the so-called conventional farmer with 100 acres, farming safely, and contributing to feeding the public rather than indulging in an expression of personal values. In the first case the liberal will scream “are you saying that I (a good enlightened progressed individual) shouldn't be completely free?” while in the second case the liberal will say “are you saying that my neighbor (a bad unenlightened red neck) should not be suppressed?” The liberal has unpaid slave labor on his garden in the form of “interns” doing the harvest – all young people of privilege who can afford to give up a summer for an experience - while calling for prosecution of his neighbor for giving jobs to people for whom the farm work is an unambiguous and otherwise unavailable opportunity. The liberal will set up a CSA, forcing people to pay in advance for their food and then accept whatever the garden might produce, yet look at the neighbor with disdain for “only being motivated by profit” because he doesn't charge the public until they actually have the produce in hand.

The socialist would step back and look at this situation differently. The socialist would say that there should not be two tiers of agriculture – one for the privileged and another for the rest of the population. The socialist would see the need for uniform regulations and consistent standards for the benefit of the entire public. The socialist would say that only the elite can afford to pay for their food in advance and then be forced to accept the output from the farm whatever that may be. The socialist would say that we will never be able to feed the population with these models, and that the poor people will suffer for the cause of the wealthy having more “personal choices” and that the real farmers will suffer for the cause of a handful of spoiled and privileged people being free to indulge in whimsical activities that advance their personal values and lifestyles. But liberalism will not tolerate a socialist point of view being expressed or heard.

There is another good example of this in a debate that is unfolding this weekend about the health care proposals of one of the candidates, John Edwards. He has taken the position that “we need universal health care.” So far so good. Over the weekend, in an interview, he dropped the idea that this health care would carry with it some mandatory features – that visits and checkups would be mandatory for the public.

Immediately a libertarian versus authoritarian argument broke out. On one side, we had people arguing that they had the right to determine their own health care and that the government could not mandate what treatments they had to accept. The usual Kevin Trudeau, Dr. Mercola alternative health ideas and conspiracy theories were trotted out. “Aspartame is poisoning us!!!” and “microwaves cause cancer!” Pure libertarianism. On the other side of the argument, people said things such as “we can't be taking care of people with taxpayer dollars who won't take personal responsibility, follow doctor's orders, and stop doing things that are a health risk! If people want health care, they must submit to the rules.” Back and forth the argument went. Then someone said “well it is no big deal. Those who don't like the rules are free to opt out of the plan.” Which side of this argument will prevail? Both. Libertarianism will apply to the wealthy, authoritarianism will apply to the poor.

A socialist would look at this and notice that what is being advocated is a two tier system. “Follow the rules” means that poor people will be saddled with more and more restrictions and difficulties, and when they still can't get health care will be told “well you wouldn't follow the rules.” And “opt out?” Opt out means that the wealthy will not participate, will still have access to a better quality of health care, and the right wingers will start yapping about “free rides” and “irresponsible people” and the “burden” being caused by “their” behavior. For poor people “opt out” will mean “tossed out” of the system.

Look at all of the liberal causes and it is easy to see that the same pattern holds again and again. Observations (and despite the complete absence of a political Left in this country, a few observations of abuse and injustice are still heard and cannot be completely suppressed) are assessed as to whether they can or cannot be seen as an important issue, and how important that issue might be. The more directly it threatens personal choices for liberals, or the more it reflects their personal values, the more important it is deemed. Once in a while this is in response to injustice, but more often it is in response to right wing propaganda. That means that what is and isn't an issue, and what the two – and there are always only two - available positions on the issue are for one to take as part of their personal growth and self-expression. The official liberal side of the issue then becomes a cause, and the only debate is about whether libertarian or authoritarian methods are to be applied to advance the cause. It always resolves into libertarianism for “us” and authoritarianism for “them.”

Gun control – some argue that they should be able to have guns without government interference, others argue that the public should be disarmed for their own good. Once again, libertarian versus authoritarian. The socialist would ask “whose guns?” and say that the wealthy will keep their armed body guards and gated homes without interference, that the upscale liberals will live behind a wall of heavily armed hirelings in the suburbs, protected from the riff raff, and that it will be the poor people most impacted by gun control. The police will have yet another excuse for stopping and imprisoning poor people and minorities. But the socialist point of view will be suppressed by the simple expedient of denying that it exists. One can only be for or against guns in the liberal world. No other opinion will be heard or acknowledged.

Choice – the argument will be between those who say that it is my body and none of the government's business – the libertarian argument – and those who say “they” shouldn't use abortion as birth control and should take personal responsibility for their own behavior. “Why should 'we' pay for abortions for 'them' who engage in stupid behavior?” The socialist might say “choice for whom, exactly?” and point out that the wealthy women will always have access to birth control and abortion, and that the choice movement does not address the issue of access to health care for poor women. That socialist point of view will not be heard. You are for or against choice, end of story, and that means that anything you say will be aggressively characterized as though it were one of those two positions. You will then be seen as absolutely no different from the most extreme people taking the wrong side on the issue.

What I am describing is not a minor and lamentable feature of liberalism, rather I am describing the entire purpose of liberalism ; first and foremost the complete suppression of socialism, and secondarily the promotion of libertarianism for those with means and the application of authoritarianism to those without means. It is an airtight system for excluding socialism fro political discussion. You can be a socialist with relative impunity, you can cite theory - “old books” and “old thinkers” - but you may not apply socialism to current politics or you will be destroyed.

Liberal thy name is hypocrisy. What's new?
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Postby IanEye » Thu May 08, 2008 10:59 pm

ah, I see, Norman Lear is a Socialist.

Throughout the '70s Lear used Archie Bunker to take the piss out of Authoritarianism, while he used Maude Findlay to take the piss out of Libertarianism.

Of course, Michael Stivic and Arthur Harmon were shown to be flawed individuals as well. We're all human after all.

Speaking of the '70s, do you consider the Jamaican PNP led by Michael Manley true Socialism as you define it?
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Postby freemason9 » Thu May 08, 2008 11:30 pm

IanEye wrote:If an individual previously defined as a 'Liberal' were to go on 'Hannity & Colmes' and tear Sean Hannity a new asshole, just give him a straight up critical beatdown, that individual would never again be described as a "Liberal" again on Fox News.

Because Fox News cannot afford to have part of the definition of "Liberal" be, 'someone who shoved every one of Conservative Sean Hannity's talking points down his throat'. The definition of "Liberal" must be "weak, ineffectual, flip-flopper, etc". If Fox News views you as the enemy they will define you as a "Liberal" for as long as they can, but they will abandon the term if they have to.

Oh, and when you stand up to these Fascists they don't call you a "Leftist" either. They call you a "Radical".

Labels are masks.


You're exactly correct. I'm a liberal that would be happy to kick any right wing ass when the situation requires it. I'm convinced that most right wing guys are girly-men, anyway. I've never seen one of them stand toe-to-toe in a bar. Right wingers are insecure, and--for the most part--I believe that they have exceptionally tiny penises.

That's my belief. Take it or leave it.
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Postby tKl » Fri May 09, 2008 12:37 am

Why quibble? What a waste of time.

And *some people* attack attack attack.

We should all crack our egg shells and see what comes out in the scramble.

Fuck your labels and name calling! I am a goddam human being, and if my personal universe of belief+experience doesn't matter to you, fuck you.
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Postby Eldritch » Fri May 09, 2008 2:06 am

Okey dokey. :D
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Postby Username » Fri May 09, 2008 5:27 am

.
Joe's Day I heard Thom Hartmann read that story on his radio show.

Thom Hartmann HERE
Joe Republican
August 29th, 2004 9:38 pm
Day in the Life of Joe Middle-Class Republican

by John Gray

Joe gets up at 6:00am to prepare his morning coffee. He fills his pot full of good clean drinking water because some liberal fought for minimum water quality standards. He takes his daily medication with his first swallow of coffee. His medications are safe to take because some liberal fought to insure their safety and work as advertised.

All but $10.00 of his medications are paid for by his employers medical plan because some liberal union workers fought their employers for paid medical insurance, now Joe gets it too. He prepares his morning breakfast, bacon and eggs this day. Joe’s bacon is safe to eat because some liberal fought for laws to regulate the meat packing industry.

Joe takes his morning shower reaching for his shampoo; His bottle is properly labeled with every ingredient and the amount of its contents because some liberal fought for his right to know what he was putting on his body and how much it contained. Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air he breathes is clean because some tree hugging liberal fought for laws to stop industries from polluting our air. He walks to the subway station for his government subsidized ride to work; it saves him considerable money in parking and transportation fees. You see, some liberal fought for affordable public transportation, which gives everyone the opportunity to be a contributor.

Joe begins his work day; he has a good job with excellent pay, medicals benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because some liberal union members fought and died for these working standards. Joe’s employer pays these standards because Joe’s employer doesn’t want his employees to call the union. If Joe is hurt on the job or becomes unemployed he’ll get a worker compensation or unemployment check because some liberal didn’t think he should lose his home because of his temporary misfortune.

Its noon time, Joe needs to make a Bank Deposit so he can pay some bills. Joe’s deposit is federally insured by the FSLIC because some liberal wanted to protect Joe’s money from unscrupulous bankers who ruined the banking system before the depression.

Joe has to pay his Fannie Mae underwritten Mortgage and his below market federal student loan because some stupid liberal decided that Joe and the government would be better off if he was educated and earned more money over his life-time.

Joe is home from work, he plans to visit his father this evening at his farm home in the country. He gets in his car for the drive to dads; his car is among the safest in the world because some liberal fought for car safety standards. He arrives at his boyhood home. He was the third generation to live in the house financed by Farmers Home Administration because bankers didn’t want to make rural loans. The house didn’t have electric until some big government liberal stuck his nose where it didn’t belong and demanded rural electrification. (Those rural Republican’s would still be sitting in the dark)

He is happy to see his dad who is now retired. His dad lives on Social Security and his union pension because some liberal made sure he could take care of himself so Joe wouldn’t have to. After his visit with dad he gets back in his car for the ride home.

He turns on a radio talk show, the host’s keeps saying that liberals are bad and conservatives are good. (He doesn’t tell Joe that his beloved Republicans have fought against every protection and benefit Joe enjoys throughout his day) Joe agrees, “We don’t need those big government liberals ruining our lives; after all, I’m a self made man who believes everyone should take care of themselves, just like I have”.


Another version of it HERE.

A Day in the Life of a True Conservative
Joe Conservative wakes up in the morning and goes to the bathroom. He flushes his toilet and brushes his teeth, mindful that each flush & brush costs him about 43 cents to his privatized water provider. His wacky, liberal neighbor keeps badgering the company to disclose how clean and safe their water is, but no one ever finds out. Just to be safe, Joe Conservative boils his drinking water.

Joe steps outside and coughs–the pollution is especially bad today, but the smokiest cars are the cheapest ones, so everyone buys ‘em. Joe Conservative checks to make sure he has enough toll money for the 3 different private roads he must drive to work. There is no public transportation, so traffic is backed up and his 10 mile commute takes an hour.

On the way, he drops his 12 year old daughter off at the clothing factory she works at. Paying for kids to go to private school until they’re 18 is a luxury, and Joe needs the extra income coming in. Times are hard and there’re no social safety nets.

He gets to work 5 minutes late and misses the call for Christian prayer, and is immediately docked by his employer. He is not feeling well today, but has no health insurance, since neither his employer nor his government provide it, and paying for it himself is really expensive, since he has a precondition. He just hopes for the best.

Joe’s workday is 12 hours long, because there is no regulation over working hours, and Joe will lose his job if he complains or unionizes. Today is an especially bad day. Joe’s manager demands that he work until midnight, a 16 hour day. Joe does, knowing that he’ll lose his job if he does not.

Finally, after midnight, Joe gets to pick up his daughter and go home. His daughter shows him the deep cut she got on the industrial sewing machine today. Joe is outraged and asks why she doesn’t have metal mesh gloves or other protection. She says the company will not provide it and she’ll have to pay for it out of her own pocket. Joe looks at the wound and decides they’ll use an over the counter disinfectant and bandages until it heals. She’ll have a scar, but getting stitches at the emergency room is expensive.

His daughter also complains that the manager made suggestive overtures towards her. Joe counsels her to be a “good girl” and not rock the boat, or she’ll get fired and they’ll be out the income.

His daughter says she can’t wait until she’s 18 so she can vote for change or go to the Iraq War.

They get home and there’s a message from his elderly father who can’t afford to pay his medical or heating bills. Joe can hear him coughing and shivering.

Joe turns on the radio and the top story is a proposal in Congress to raise the voting age to 25. A rare liberal opinionator states that it’s an attempt to keep power out of the hands of working class Americans. The conservative host immediately quashes him, calling him “a utopian idealist,” and agreeing that people aren’t mature enough to make good choices until they’re at least 25.

Joe chuckles at the wine-swilling, cheese eating liberal egghead and thinks, “Thank God I live in America where I have freedom!”


There is much to be learned about this topic from George Lakoff. I'd like to see a thread discussing his work.

Mother Jones Magazine interview with George Lakoff HERE
...linguist and cognitive scientist George Lakoff. Lakoff, a professor at the University of California --Berkeley and a founder of the Rockridge Institute, has emerged as the left’s message guru, the go-to guy for anyone interested in understanding why conservatives are winning the language wars and how liberals can retool their message.
<snip>
The key, he says, is not to shift rightward politically, but to lift a few moves from the right’s linguistic playbook. Lakoff is trying to teach liberals what conservatives have known for years: the skill of defining, or “framing,” issues in a way that makes it next to impossible for the other side to contradict you. By consciously and cleverly framing the terms used in the debate, you define the debate itself. “Clear Skies” and “partial-birth abortion” aren’t just catchphrases; they’re brilliantly self-contained arguments. And if you need any further proof that liberals are losing the frame game, consider that many won’t even call themselves “liberal,” preferring the (as-yet) unsullied tag “progressive.”
Lakoff recently published Don’t Think of an Elephant: Know Your Values and Frame the Debate, a handbook that spells out his strategies for confronting the right. (Note that you also can learn about Lakoff's ideas via a new DVD titled, How Democrats and Progressives Can Win.) His suggestions are buoying liberals beaten down by years of conservative ascendancy. But he isn’t promising easy solutions. According to Lakoff, the red state-blue state split is deeper than most Americans realize. He described its dimensions in his earlier book Moral Politics: How Liberals and Conservatives Think, which combined postmodern discourse theory with what might be called the “Who’s Your Daddy?” theory of American politics. The essence of Lakoff’s analysis is this: liberals and conservatives inhabit two opposing moral universes defined by competing visions of the ideal family. Conservatives subscribe to a “strict father” model that emphasizes discipline, self-interest, and competition. This is what makes George W. Bush tick. (That’s Bush the politician, not Bush the dad. Lakoff is careful to point out that these are political models, not descriptions of how people actually run their families). On the other side, liberals believe in a “nurturant parent” model with an emphasis on empathy, community, and fairness. No wonder we see ourselves as a nation of chest-thumping bullies and tax-and-spend girlie men.


[url=http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/467716.html]An excerpt from
Moral Politics
How Liberals and Conservatives Think
George Lakoff
HERE[/url]
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Postby sunny » Fri May 09, 2008 10:07 am

Other than being terribly naive and hopelessly wedded to the Democratic Party, eternal optimists that they are, there is nothing wrong with rank and file liberals. It's when you move up the political food chain to the elite liberals, the politicians and money people, that you run into the very real problem of collaboration with right-wing power.
Choose love
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Postby Eldritch » Fri May 09, 2008 3:05 pm

Thank you, Username. I had never seen "A Day in the Life of a True Conservative" before. I appreciate reading it. :)
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Postby Truth4Youth » Fri May 09, 2008 4:41 pm

"Liberal" and "conservative" and "republican" and "democrat" are outdated terms that mean absolutely nothing today. Simple truth.
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Postby Eldritch » Fri May 09, 2008 6:28 pm

Oh I think they mean something, but I agree with you that they mean a whole lot less nowadays than most people care to recognize, or to admit.
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