But where did the Twin Towers go to so quickly?

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But where did the Twin Towers go to so quickly?

Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Thu May 15, 2008 2:59 pm

This thread is just about the forensic study of the physical destruction of the World Trade Center Twin Towers on 9/11/01.
..I'm interested to hear how these facts of evidence fit into the laws of physics and logic which an average layman can discern without expert training.

I''d like to see Jeff (and others) account for what physically happened to the Twin Towers and how long it took for their destruction and what the remains looked like and where they ended up...without digressing away to other topics.

Image

So, Jeff, and anyone else interested--

1) How is it possible that the tops of the Twin Towers above the plane impact sites came down perfectly symmetrically in almost exactly the same elapsed time (around 10 seconds) it would've taken to fall through thin air instead of through the path of most resistance comprising of an over-constructed core of 47 interbraced massive steel columns meant to easily survive a fullsize highspeed jet impact with fuel while simultaneously withstanding a 150 mph hurricane?

2) How could those three WTC buildings fall times be due to mere gravity when the simple basic Newtonian physics law called Conservation of Momentum was completely violated by how fast they came down? Conservation of Momentum decrees that when a moving object impacts another it must slow down.

3) How could this violation of Conservation of Momentum (falling too fast) be due to anything but controlled demolition of the Twin Towers in a closely-timed wireless remote-control top-down explosive sequence assisted by initial weakening with thermite?

4) How did tons of concrete and all the building contents, including many human bodies, get turned into particulate matter?

5) How did tons of this debris complete with tons of steel beams get projected horizontally hundreds of feet to form a 1200 foot-wide concentric debris field?

6) Why do photographs and videos of the destruction of the Twin Towers show this rapid high-energy ejection of tons of debris quite clearly, not from "fuzzy" or "doctored" sources?

7) How did yellow-hot molten metal at temperatures impossible to achieve with jet fuel or burning office contents and which could not have been airplane aluminum come to be pouring out of the WTC before it came down?

8) How did massive pools of molten metal at temperatures impossible to achieve with jet fuel or burning office contents that were also unquenchable by water come to be flowing underneath the debris piles of just the three destroyed WTC buildings for many weeks? Thermite burns underwater because it contains its own oxygen content.

9) Why was the exact chemical signature of thermite found in the WTC dust spead over NYCity?

10) Why was the exact chemical signature of thermite found in cooled molten material in debris attached to steel beams sent off as memorials and also on areas of the steel beams that were not cut by acetlyne torch?

11) Why were there massive steel beams curved without fractures as can only happen under thousands of degrees of heat like the 4500 f. that thermite burns at?

12) Why were iron-rich spheroids found in the WTC dust? These can only be created by molten metal turned into a spray of micro-droplets with massive energy.

13) Why did hundreds of first responders report that they heard and felt bombs in the WTC before it came down and just before and during its destruction?
(These were the oral histories suppressed by Mayor Giuliani until a court case released them August 2005.)
Last edited by Hugh Manatee Wins on Thu May 15, 2008 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby nomo » Thu May 15, 2008 3:11 pm

Verbatim form the other thread:

    Oh boy. Not these loaded questions again. Each of them already implies an answer. You're not interested in "truth". You're framing your questions so that they all must lead to one single inevitable conclusion. It's the same with your "keyword hijacking" nonsense. You've already made up your mind and you're just picking and choosing and making shit up in order to support your theories. It's intellectually lazy and a complete waste of time.


And let me add that it's a very dishonest trick to write up all those "questions" as if they were undisputed facts. They're not, and that's why you didn't provide a cite for any of them.
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Postby Seamus OBlimey » Thu May 15, 2008 3:20 pm

nomo wrote: you didn't provide a cite for any of them.


But you know he can, you tease.
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Postby barracuda » Thu May 15, 2008 3:30 pm

nomo wrote:And let me add that it's a very dishonest trick to write up all those "questions" as if they were undisputed facts. They're not, and that's why you didn't provide a cite for any of them.

Let's say its all true (irrefutable, easy to understand conservation of momentum, etc.), and I and everyone else is now convinced of the fact of controlled demolition. Now what, Hugh? I assume you are advocating violent overthrow of a treasonous government. When do we take to the streets? Or should we write our congressmen for new investigations? A congressional committee on the NIST documents? A re-write of the commision report? Where are you going with this?

Wait - do the pages on this thread count towards Joe Hillshoist's bet?
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Postby Seamus OBlimey » Thu May 15, 2008 3:39 pm

barracuda wrote:Wait - do the pages on this thread count towards Joe Hillshoist's bet?


Yeah, if we copy and paste. :P
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Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Thu May 15, 2008 4:18 pm

barracuda wrote:.....
Let's say its all true (irrefutable, easy to understand conservation of momentum, etc.), and I and everyone else is now convinced of the fact of controlled demolition. Now what, Hugh? I assume you are advocating violent overthrow of a treasonous government.


Not at all. I'm advocating peaceful intellectual cultural overthrow of fascism.

When citizens know the tricks of social control like media psy-ops and false flag ops they will think more critically on a daily basis, learn more about the world around them, and be less inclined to send their boys to drop phosphorus on Fallujan boys in the name of Jesus.

Where are you going with this?

More peace and justice.
Less fascism.

Military intelligence got us into this mess and now civilian intelligence must get us out.

The psy-ops sytem developed during WWII to save us from Nazis has been far too successful, "catastrophic success," and now has taken on the characteristics of Nazism.

Only increased general awareness of the psy-ops system by the general public can temper the psychopathic organizational tendencies of scientific fascism.

And exposing the cover-up of 9/11 and all the other cover-ups helps to increase this general awareness.


As Jeff puts it, "What you don't know can't hurt them."
Or more generally, "ignorance kills."
Last edited by Hugh Manatee Wins on Thu May 15, 2008 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby orz » Thu May 15, 2008 4:19 pm

forensic study

No it's not.
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Postby Jeff » Thu May 15, 2008 4:35 pm

Hugh Manatee Wins wrote:
As Jeff puts it, "What you don't know can't hurt them."


Well, then I guess I was so much older then. What we know doesn't necessarily hurt them, either.

Knowledge can be power, but it can also be debilitating. Especially when it's met with the equivalent of "So what if I did?"
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Postby cptmarginal » Thu May 15, 2008 4:35 pm

barracuda wrote:
nomo wrote:And let me add that it's a very dishonest trick to write up all those "questions" as if they were undisputed facts. They're not, and that's why you didn't provide a cite for any of them.

Let's say its all true (irrefutable, easy to understand conservation of momentum, etc.), and I and everyone else is now convinced of the fact of controlled demolition. Now what, Hugh? I assume you are advocating violent overthrow of a treasonous government. When do we take to the streets? Or should we write our congressmen for new investigations? A congressional committee on the NIST documents? A re-write of the commision report? Where are you going with this?

Wait - do the pages on this thread count towards Joe Hillshoist's bet?


Far be it from me (as a layman) to come to any definite conclusion about what happened to WTC 1 & 2, but why would Hugh's argument imply that we have to enact a response to the perpetrators? Isn't it a worthwhile cause to just want truthful information spread around? This would not be a valid reason to drop the topic of WTC demolition, considering other fields of research (such as the JFK assassination) that are pretty much founded solely on the principle of disseminating the truth.

In any case, it also seems absurd to me that Hugh would ask the people of this board to ferret out conclusions about what occurred to those towers - we are not experts! And anyway, for every expert that agrees with CD theories, there is (at least) one who will disagree.

Personally, I can only observer the fact that something unprecedented happened that day, which neither fit the model of other building collapses nor a standard controlled demolition. Whether this can be accounted for by the uniqueness of the building & the situation, or by an unknown type of military demolition (their specialty) - it is impossible to say definitely at this point.

One thing we do know for certain is that the 9/11 conspiracy culture (and its argument based on physical evidence) works exactly the same as the JFK conspiracy culture. My prediction is that the 9/11 debate will continue in an isomorphic fashion to that of the JFK situation - people who are "on the fence" will probably be persuaded by whichever "expert" gives the most convincing explanation to them (since most people are laymen in the fields necessary). Many will be blamed, much will be claimed, many things revoked - but none of the real perpetrators will be revealed.

Anyway, at least on this board we do not have to be dominated by the omnipresent (extremely boring) CD evidence plastered everywhere. It's still around, but deeper research and new facts surround it.

By the way, sorry if these comments are off mark - having not read many other (boring) 9/11 threads, my knowledge of previous arguments is practically nil.
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Postby Jeff » Thu May 15, 2008 4:46 pm

cptmarginal wrote:
One thing we do know for certain is that the 9/11 conspiracy culture (and its argument based on physical evidence) works exactly the same as the JFK conspiracy culture. My prediction is that the 9/11 debate will continue in an isomorphic fashion to that of the JFK situation - people who are "on the fence" will probably be persuaded by whichever "expert" gives the most convincing explanation to them (since most people are laymen in the fields necessary). Many will be blamed, much will be claimed, many things revoked - but none of the real perpetrators will be revealed.


Absolutely. I'm looking forward to the 40th anniversary, to see how far we've come.

From a 2005 blog post:


My fear for the "9/11 Truth Movement" is that it is making the same missteps the Kennedy assassination researchers made 40 years ago when there was still a chance for something like justice.

Philadelphia lawyer Vincent Salandria was one of the earliest and best critics of the Warren Commission. Immediately after its Report was issued, he wrote a highly detailed critique for The Legal Intelligencer analyzing how the trajectories and ballistics were all wrong. In 1975, as Gaeton Fonzi was preparing for work as a government investigator on the staff of the House Select Committee on Assassinations, he visited Salandria, whom he found dejected about the fruits of a dozen years of research.

Fonzi quotes Salandria in his important book, The Last Investigation:

I'm afraid we were misled. All the critics, myself included, were misled very early. I see that now. We spent too much time and effort microanalyzing the details of the assassination when all the time it was obvious, it was blatantly obvious that it was a conspiracy. Don't you think the men who killed Kennedy had the means to do it in the most sophisticated and subtle way? They chose not to. Instead, they picked the shooting gallery that was Dealey Plaza and did it in the most barbarous and openly arrogant manner. The cover story was transparent and designed not to hold, to fall apart at the slightest scrutiny. The forces that killed Kennedy wanted the message clear: "We are in control and no one not the President, nor Congress, nor any elected official - no one can do anything about it." It was a message to the people that their government was powerless. And the people eventually got the message....

The tyranny of power is here. Current events tell us that those who killed Kennedy can only perpetuate their power by promoting social upheaval both at home and abroad. And that will lead not to revolution but repression. I suggest to you that the interests of those who killed Kennedy now transcend national boundaries and national priorities. No doubt we are dealing now with an international conspiracy. We must face that fact - and not waste any more time microanalyzing the evidence. That's exactly what they want us to do. They have kept us busy for so long. And I will bet that is what will happen to you. They'll keep you very, very busy and, eventually, they'll wear you down.
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Postby 8bitagent » Thu May 15, 2008 4:59 pm

See, it doesn't matter I guess that Oswald/Mafia/Cubans were intimately tied
to the deep state, or that Atta/al Qaeda/KSM/Osama/ISI/Saudi GID/etc are intimately tied to the deep state....(wasnt Lee Harvey Oswald tied to the CIA?) In a hundred years, JFK will be "grassy knoll, back and to the left",
9/11 will be "controlled demolition, where's the plane at the pentagon?"

Hell people will still be claiming the hijackers are "alive", and have annual sightings of them.

I know it's easier for people to solely focus on the CD gospel, and dismiss(nay, completely laugh off the involvement of global jihad, Muslims, non US intelligence agencides, etc) "9/11 is all about the CD, accept it, anything else is disinfo!" It's almost like creationism "God's word!"

From what I gather, the 2001-2004 9/11 questioning movement was more about getting into the complex arteries at the heart of the matter, rather
than assuming "no plane hit the pentagon", "fake remote planes were used", "Osama is 100% innocent", "hijackers are alive", "the towers were 100% brought down by controlled demolition", "Cheney and Bushs did it", etc.

Meanwhile, if you understand BCCI to Bosnia, and everything in between, you'd see exactly the how's and why's of the 9/11 operation and how it fits into the deep politic matrix. Just saying:)
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Postby barracuda » Thu May 15, 2008 5:44 pm

Hugh Manatee Wins wrote:Not at all. I'm advocating peaceful intellectual cultural overthrow of fascism.

There is no such thing. Fascists have only ever been removed through violence.
When citizens know the tricks of social control like media psy-ops and false flag ops they will think more critically on a daily basis, learn more about the world around them, and be less inclined to send their boys to drop phosphorus on Fallujan boys in the name of Jesus.

Wrong. The "citizens" (who can barely be bothered to vote) love Jesus and hate towelheads: haven't you seen the bumperstickers?

Military intelligence got us into this mess and now civilian intelligence must get us out.

Individuals are smart, and will get it. "The People" are dumb as sticks, and won't do anything that makes them uncomfortable without being forced to.

The psy-ops sytem developed during WWII to save us from Nazis has been far too successful, "catastrophic success," and now has taken on the characteristics of Nazism.

And the National Socialists were slowed down by a "peaceful intellectual cultural overthrow ?" No, they were violently destroyed via firebombing and invasion.

Only increased general awareness of the psy-ops system by the general public can temper the psychopathic organizational tendencies of scientific fascism.

And exposing the cover-up of 9/11 and all the other cover-ups helps to increase this general awareness.

Everyone now believes a conspiracy killed Kennedy. That public knowledge has been smoothly coopted into the American mythos, and is now part and parcel of the "psychopathic organizational tendencies of scientific fascism." 911 "Justice" can only be served via revolution. If you haven't the stomach for that, you are part of the problem. The forensic information concentrated on by CD'ers constitutes yet another mechanism of control by the very forces you seek to expose. You are being systematically blinded to that control by your own psychic needs.
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Postby barracuda » Thu May 15, 2008 6:05 pm

cptmarginal wrote:Far be it from me (as a layman) to come to any definite conclusion about what happened to WTC 1 & 2, but why would Hugh's argument imply that we have to enact a response to the perpetrators? Isn't it a worthwhile cause to just want truthful information spread around? This would not be a valid reason to drop the topic of WTC demolition, considering other fields of research (such as the JFK assassination) that are pretty much founded solely on the principle of disseminating the truth.

Kennedy assassination research is a rarefied hobby practiced mostly by dillettantes rather than scientists and mostly for fun as a glorified game of "Clue." It is not a worthwhile pursuit, and is akin to watching "American Idol". What reason is there to fret and fret over the particular mechanism of the collapses while another 30,000 children starve to death each day? For justice? Whose justice? The victims? The perps have already gotten away with it. For truth? Whose truth? The last guy left to post? Don't get me wrong, now. I love to look at the pictures, the frame-by-frames, the Fireman's video, parse the NIST report, lambast the Comnmission, all that. But I don't think for a minute that this activity approaches something like striving for "justice." The only way "truth" can be served here is to "enact a response to the perpetrators" - a response like their feet kicking for purchase and finding none at about three feet off the ground.
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Postby thegovernmentflu » Thu May 15, 2008 6:13 pm

Has it dawned on people like Hugh that everyone who watches mainstream cable news was repeatedly exposed to 911 controlled demolition theories via TV over the last couple years? I know it was in the context of these theories being ridiculed and attacked, but regardless- it was all over TV. It doesn't matter that they attacked the theories; what's important is that they went out of their way to expose people to the concept of controlled demolition. Why would they do that? Isn't it likely that the powers that be are aware that a large segment of the population distrusts them, and they're able to calculate how these dissidents will react to the prevailing opinion on television? Wouldn't it be quite easy to guide people into disinformation by using basic reverse psychology? The rise of "911 Truth" and the subsequent insertion of controlled demolition as the central issue always seemed extremely contrived to me.
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Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Thu May 15, 2008 6:16 pm

So. No focus on the op subject.

But more nonsense about how any focus on the truth of the crime is self-defeating and a trick?
Wrong- not only do you learn the crime but you learn the cover-up by USG expert shills and the USG media shills around the biggest history-making story in our lifetimes.
:x
cptmarginal wrote:.....
In any case, it also seems absurd to me that Hugh would ask the people of this board to ferret out conclusions about what occurred to those towers - we are not experts!


You don't have to be an expert to KNOW that dropping two objects, one through thin air and one through a battleship, means they shouldn't hit the ground at the same time!
Any child can tell you that.


You are missing this obvious proof of the biggest crime of 9/11, someone blew up the Twin Towers.

And anyway, for every expert that agrees with CD theories, there is (at least) one who will disagree.


Wrong. The experts who deny CD are USG perps and miltary contractors and not many, either.
Lots of experts agree that the Conservation of Momentum is sound and the NIST lies.

The NIST perps are the same men who've covered up OKCity.
Hey, another important consequence of 9/11 CD Truth! More truth!

Personally, I can only observer the fact that something unprecedented happened that day,


No, you can observe alot more which is why I lined it out.

One thing we do know for certain is that the 9/11 conspiracy culture (and its argument based on physical evidence) works exactly the same as the JFK conspiracy culture.


And there was lots to learn from JFK, too.
It doesn't take putting a trigger man behind bars to have cultural significance.

USG psy-ops CANNOT admit to horrible inside job crimes.
USG psy-ops MUST try to get nationalism and military recruiting for national security.
ONLY civilians can tell the truth to each other.

Anyway, at least on this board we do not have to be dominated by the omnipresent (extremely boring) CD evidence plastered everywhere.


Boring?

By the way, sorry if these comments are off mark - having not read many other (boring) 9/11 threads, my knowledge of previous arguments is practically nil.


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