Secret report: biofuel caused food crisis

[slimmouse]

Can someone call this childs parents please. His persistant lying makes it impossible for him to play well.

Are you on the Ethanol barricades still ?

Are/have farmers being/been paid NOT to produce crops ?

These arent hard questions

Not even to you

[wintler2]

Footnote to other useless/lazy conspiracy theorists: notice how slimmouses complete lack of substantiation and relentless misrepresentation adds nothing to the discussion, only feeds division and serves business as usual. If you don't want to be such an obvious troll, try to dress your attacks up a bit with the occasional fact, link, or quote.

[vigilant]

Why do SMs significant others (e.g. poster 'vigilant') always agree with the pro-elite wacko?

Wintler I usually just ignore your insults because I have decided that sometimes you get off your meds or you're just such an asshole that you can't help yourself. But you don't speak for me ok?

Sometimes I agree with Slimmouse and sometimes I disagree with him. When I disagree with him I don't resort to childish insults and call him your favorite word which is "ignorant". I have seen you use the word "ignorant" to describe someone three times in the last two days. Go find your meds you asshole.....

[wintler2]

..Wintler I usually just ignore your insults

I have only started using insults against SM and camp followers, cos he always gets a potty mouth, and insulted me before i even got on the thread. You cheer him on, you deserve same; if you quit supporting inflammatory and contentfree smearing, i'll pretend to respect you.

I have seen you use the word "ignorant" to describe someone three times in the last two days. ..

Its true, there seems to be a rash, and you & SM are it.

[Cosmic Cowbell]

[norton ash]

Internet fighting is like the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you're still fucking retarded.

I kid, I kid.

[mentalgongfu2]

how can ethanol be the cause of the 'food crisis,' when so few people are using ethanol for fuel? Besides the 10 percent gas mixture, I mean. It certainly hasn't taken off around my parts. There's one station that sells E85 (85 percent ethanol for the layppl), but I tried and couldn't find a vehicle to buy locally that would run on it.

E85 is dead in the water. E85 vehicles do exist, but because of the way US mileage ratings are schemed up, based on "fleet mileage" rather than per vehicle or per model, most E85 vehicles being marketed are gas-guzzling SUVs and the like. When you acknowledge the fact ethanol gets lower gas mileage, that does not make for a convincing sell when the price is just 50-75 cents less than regular fuel.

Conversion kits are available to modify standard engines to run on E85, but the EPA has yet to approve any of them, so it is illegal to install one or to drive a vehicle using one. Emissions standards and all.

I live in the cornbelt, and as far as I can tell, ethanol has not made much impact except on corn prices in the futures market. There has been little to no impact on fuel usage, and a lot of the ethanol and biodiesel plants have scaled back or shut down because they grew too quickly in the ethanol orgy. A few ethanol plants are doing well - there's ADM and Cargill, the giants and their subsidiaries, and there are plants finding places in more localized economies, buying corn from the field next door and selling distillers grains and solubles (DGS) to farmers as feed.

DGS is a byproduct of ethanol production, and while it does not provide all the nutrients needed for healthy cattle, it can be mixed with other feedstocks and works well in the right proportions.

Producers probably know what their crop is going to be used for when they sell to a small or local place, but I doubt that's the case when selling to the big two, who process corn into hundreds of different products. It brings to mind the pungent odor of industrial grain distillation, which is quite a doozie if you've never been to a place like Clinton or Eddyville, Iowa, on a muggy day.

Forgive me Jack, and everyone else, for continuing to trot out this jazz move, if that's what it is, but I feel strongly a lot of the food vs. fuel discourse is at best plain incorrect and at worst deliberate disinfo. It's a red herring. The impact is far exaggerated, and I think it's a point that needs emphasizing.

I think the real story lies in the numbers and their manipulation. The culprits are always the same: Greed and Power.

[vigilant]

I have lived in Alabama, Arkansas, Texas, and Colorado in the last two years and I haven't even seen 1 ethanol gas pump. There probably are some in those areas but the point I am making is that in most areas they are scarce. I don't know anybody that drives an ethanol burning car either.

I agree with ya Mentalgong, ethanol is all but dead for the most part.

[wintler2]

I have lived in Alabama, Arkansas, Texas, and Colorado in the last two years and I haven't even seen 1 ethanol gas pump. There probably are some in those areas but the point I am making is that in most areas they are scarce. I don't know anybody that drives an ethanol burning car either.

I agree with ya Mentalgong, ethanol is all but dead for the most part.

"I can't see it so it ain't so?" Bush II really is your rightful emperor.
US ethanol production in 2007 was 6.5 BILLION gallons http://www.ethanolrfa.org/industry/statistics/#A

When folk insist on propagating their ignorance onto others, you have to wonder what their agenda is.

[mentalgongfu2]

Wintler, ( gratuitous insult removed)

Since some us are ignorant in your eyes, I'd love to see you enlighten us with some evidence of HOW the increase in ethanol production has affected food prices. Evidence that shows at least a limited understanding of agriculture would be helpful.

on edit: Really, no one has addressed the points I've made, which I think are quite legitimate. Someone who knows something other than what MSNBC is saying, please step in and lets all learn something in this dialogue.

and speaking of ignorant ( or perhaps naive), that's how I'd describe anyone keen to believe "a confidential World Bank report obtained by the Guardian"

[Cosmic Cowbell]

I don't know anybody that drives an ethanol burning car either.

To some extent Vigilant, we all drive Ethanol burning cars...some just don't know it (or at least didn't in Okie land)

Ethanol stickers taking shape at state gas stations
By The Associated Press

TULSA -- Service station customers are seeing a lot more stickers concerning ethanol at the gas pumps.

Some of the stickers notify the public that the fuel contains up to 10 percent ethanol, while others proclaim that customers are getting 100 percent gasoline with no ethanol mixed in.

A new state law that went into effect Tuesday requires gas stations selling ethanol-blended fuel to place stickers on the pump notifying the customers of this fact.

State regulators will be inspecting pumps to make sure all retailers are following the law.

Stations that use ethanol in their gasoline without notifying consumers can be fined $500 for each day of the violation and can be shut down by the Oklahoma Corporation Commission.

Oklahoma's ethanol sticker law was passed this past legislative session after many stations began selling blended gasoline in the past year without telling customers.

QuikTrip started using its E10 blend last fall without any stickers, but company spokesman Michael Thornbrugh said the public was notified through numerous interviews with the media at the time.

Many nearby states have been using ethanol blends at their pumps for years, he added.

"Oklahoma really has been an island with ethanol not being introduced," Thornbrugh said. "There was not proper infrastructure and adequate supply."

Part of the incentive to sell E10 fuel is that ethanol is significantly cheaper than regular gasoline. Ethanol costs less than $3 per gallon wholesale, while regular gasoline is selling at about $4 per gallon nationally.

The typical QuikTrip store was selling regular gas at $3.79 per gallon Tuesday. But Tom Frisch was selling his self-described "real gasoline" for $3.989 at his McKay's Conoco Service in Tulsa.

Frisch is one of numerous station owners who refuse to sell ethanol-blended fuel. They say it is bad for engines, gets fewer miles per gallon and is only cheaper because it is subsidized due to the power of agricultural states.

"The government is selling us down the road," Frisch said.

Ethanol's detractors say the corn-based product is inefficient as a fuel and also drives up food prices.

http://newsok.com/ethanol-stickers-taki ... le/3264888

(apologies if ya'll knew this and I'ma jist clutterin up dis thread)

[vigilant]

I have lived in Alabama, Arkansas, Texas, and Colorado in the last two years and I haven't even seen 1 ethanol gas pump. There probably are some in those areas but the point I am making is that in most areas they are scarce. I don't know anybody that drives an ethanol burning car either.

I agree with ya Mentalgong, ethanol is all but dead for the most part.

"I can't see it so it ain't so?" Bush II really is your rightful emperor.
US ethanol production in 2007 was 6.5 BILLION gallons http://www.ethanolrfa.org/industry/statistics/#A

When folk insist on propagating their ignorance onto others, you have to wonder what their agenda is.

Shewww fly...I can't help it if you believe everything you are told by the powers that be.

[mentalgongfu2]

This was on the website for the Renewable Fuels Association linked by wintler2. Interesting info, lots of data and graphs, but I found this part particularly interesting:

We are often asked for information on current or historical ethanol prices at the wholesale level. As the national trade association for the U.S. fuel ethanol industry, the Renewable Fuels Association is not allowed to track or report pricing information for anti-competitive reasons. The following background information may be of interest:

Most ethanol is sold under long-term contract. These contracts are private agreements between ethanol producers/marketers and petroleum companies. According to industry observers, roughly 90 to 95% of ethanol is sold under these long-term contracts (6 to 12 months). Many of these contracts are "fixed price." In other words, the price a petroleum company pays for the ethanol doesn't change, regardless of changes in the spot (wholesale) market price. Some of these contracts may be "pegged" to a gasoline benchmark. In this case, when wholesale gasoline prices move up or down, the price a petroleum company pays for ethanol moves accordingly.

The remaining small amount of ethanol is sold on the "spot" market. Prices fluctuate daily according to market conditions. Numerous companies track these daily spot prices for clients. Such firms include:

* DTN
www.dtnethanolcenter.com
* OPIS
www.opisnet.com
* Platts
www.platts.com
* Jim Jordan & Associates
www.jordan-associates.com
* Kingsman
www.kingsman.com
* Argus Media, Inc.
www.argusmediagroup.com

[mentalgongfu2]

I don't know enough about the RFA to endorse them, so please understand that I'm not, but that site sure provides a wealth of material that supports my suppositions. Thanks wintler!

transcript of Food vs. Fuel press conference:

http://www.ethanolrfa.org/objects/docum ... resser.pdf

And

“Flat out wrong” or “gross misunderstanding” or “shockingly misinformed”

Which phrase best describes the current debate about food prices and biofuels?

The debate over the role biofuels plays in the world food crisis continues to rage, with many falling victim to Chicken Little syndrome, issuing dire predictions unsupported by fact. Government, policy and business leaders from around the globe are aggressively challenging those who seek to use biofuels as the scapegoat for rising world food prices. Among other factors, these leaders point to skyrocketing oil and energy prices, surging global demand for grain and other food, and the effect of droughts on production.

Here is what they had to say:

Critics are ‘flat out wrong’
U.S. Secretary of Agriculture Ed Schafer:
Secretary Schafer said only about 25 percent of the corn crop goes to make ethanol and that the forces driving rising prices in corn and other commodities has more to do with energy costs, increased consumption around the world and weather-related production problems.

Critics who blame high food prices on US policies they claim encourage corn to be diverted from food and livestock feed to alternative fuels are "flat out wrong," said Schafer.

Emphasis needs to be on oil-exporting nations
Thai Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej:
Prime Minister Samak “lashed out at the World Bank and the United Nations for criticising biofuel producing nations for soaring food prices while sparing oil exporters.”
“Let me ask the World Bank whether they used to ask oil exporting countries before pointing their fingers and blaming us that we have to use rice fields to grow biofuel crops,” Samak told reporters.
“They have unreasonably continued to inflate oil prices even though the oil supply is not running out yet,” he added.

Livestock gobbling up grain supply
German Environment Minister Sigmar Gabriel:
Gabriel downplayed their role in raising food prices, saying demand for animal feed was more relevant.

"There are other factors crucial for rising food prices. The big competition is not between the use of biomass for energy and food but between feed and food," he said.

Ethanol not the primary reason for higher food prices
Brent Searle, Special Assistant to the Director of the Oregon Department of Agriculture
Whatever else one may criticize about corn ethanol, or biofuels in general, they are not the primary cause of recent food price increases.

Consider the fact that growers planted 24 percent more corn in 2007, which more than supplied all the corn that went into ethanol for the year. One could, therefore, totally remove corn ethanol from the equation and most of the present food price issues still would be present because there are many more factors at play with food prices here and abroad.

Biofuel debate shows ‘gross misunderstanding’ about food markets
Potash Corp. CEO Bill Doyle (Potash is the world’s largest fertilizer company):
“I think that ethanol is the most popular whipping boy in the agricultural world at the moment,” Doyle told analysts on a conference call on Thursday.

Doyle, who has talked about declining world grain stocks for years, noted 95 percent of the world's grain crop this year will be used for food.

“So to say that biofuels are the culprit clearly underestimates the demand and really shows a gross misunderstanding of the world food situation,” Doyle said.

Ignoring oil prices is ‘shockingly misinformed’
Rick Wagoner, CEO of General Motors Corp.:
Rick Wagoner, General Motors Corp.’s chairman and chief executive, says claims that biofuels are driving up food prices are “shockingly misinformed.”

“If you look at what’s causing higher [food] prices, the cost of corn is a very small part of that,” Mr. Wagoner said over the weekend at the Beijing auto show. “Oil prices are a far bigger driver of higher food prices than ethanol.”

Contact:
Matt Hartwig
Renewable Fuels Association
202-289-3835

For more than 25 years, the Renewable Fuels Association has served as the �Voice of the U.S. Ethanol Industry.� The RFA is the national trade association for the U.S. ethanol industry representing ethanol producers, marketers, and service providers. You are receiving this email because you have had previous communication with the RFA.

And

Why Are the Largest Food Companies Spending Millions of Dollars Attacking Ethanol While Completely Ignoring Gasoline and Diesel Prices?
RFA CEO Bob Dinneen Asks

Responding to the inside-the-beltway ethanol smear campaign organized by the Grocery Manufacturers of America (GMA) and other undisclosed funders, Renewable Fuels Association President Bob Dinneen issued the following statement:

“As oil and gas prices continue to set new record highs every day, it is beyond disingenuous for these groups to ignore the enormous impact escalating prices for oil and gasoline have on the price of food. Rather than work with biofuel producers to develop alternatives to oil to lower the price at the pump and thereby reduce the price of food, these groups prefer to manufacture fear and hysteria about food prices. This is a contrived and thoroughly misleading PR campaign attempting to link biofuels and food prices. These groups have chosen to deliberately mask the devastating impact of skyrocketing oil, gasoline and diesel prices while fostering a climate conducive to rampant speculation that has driven all commodities higher. Everyone ought to be asking why?

“Calls for the removal of ethanol from the marketplace would do precious little to reduce the price of food, but would send prices at the pump even higher by more than $1 per gallon. Ultimately, this deliberate smear campaign is aimed at destroying the base upon which the next generation of biofuels will be built. If this country were to jettison the starch-based ethanol industry, the development of cellulosic ethanol technologies and other biofuel advancements would be set back by decades, something those in OPEC and the oil industry would clearly welcome.

“It is extremely curious at a time when companies are laying off employees and cutting back on production due to the high price of oil, gasoline, and diesel fuel, the nation’s largest food companies are spending millions of dollars to attack ethanol and completely ignoring prices at the pump.”

* A recent study from Texas A&M University requested by Texas Governor Rick
* Perry concluded, “The underlying force driving changes in the agricultural industry, along with the economy as a whole, is overall higher energy costs, evidenced by $100 per barrel oil.”
* According to a report by the Federal Reserve Bank of Kansas City, “a 10 percent gain in energy prices could contribute 5.2 percent to retail food prices.”
* Economic advisors to the White House estimate that only 3 percent of the 43 percent increase in global food prices can be attributed to biofuels.
* In the U.S., food inflation during the last 12 months would have been 4.25 percent without expansion of the ethanol industry versus actual food inflation rate of 4.5 percent, according to the White House’s Council of Economic Advisers.
* Increased transportation and fuel costs are a more likely explanation of the difficulties faced by the World Food Program. A recent General Accounting Office report found that business and transportation account for as much as 65 percent of the cost of the U.S. food aid program.
* A recent study by the Center for Agriculture and Rural Development at Iowa State University estimates that ethanol production and use has caused gasoline prices to be $0.29 to $0.40 lower than they otherwise would have been.

As well as

Statement of Bob Dinneen, President of the Renewable Fuels Association on G8 Official Policy Statements on Food and the Environment

July 8, 2008 – “The leaders of the G8 nations clearly understand the need of world’s nations and peoples to develop, produce and use renewable fuels like ethanol. On behalf of America’s burgeoning ethanol industry and the farmers upon which it relies, we welcome the challenge to increase the sustainable production and use of biofuels. The G8 statement clearly recognizes the goal of biofuels policy which is to build upon the existing industry while moving aggressively to second generation production from wood chips, switchgrass, garbage and other cellulosic materials.

“Clearly, the G8 leaders recognize that soaring crude oil prices, commodity speculation, poor weather conditions and greater demand have contributed significantly to higher food prices. This is another reason why the G8’s decision on food security and protecting the environment incorporates the use of biofuels and the development of second generation biofuel technologies.

“As Hafez Ghanem, FAO assistant director general remarked after the UN Food Summit, ‘the world has enough resources and the right technology to produce enough crops to meet the demand for food and biofuel.’

“This policy statement is particularly strong because it recognizes the important contribution biofuels are making to the world economy, to replacing oil, and to improving the environment, while having a minimal and manageable impact on the price of food.”

etc.

[wintler2]

This was on the website for the Renewable Fuels Association linked by wintler2. Interesting info, lots of data and graphs, but I found this part particularly interesting:
.., roughly 90 to 95% of ethanol is sold under these long-term contracts (6 to 12 months). Many of these contracts are "fixed price." In other words, the price a petroleum company pays for the ethanol doesn't change, regardless of changes in the spot (wholesale) market price. Some of these contracts may be "pegged" to a gasoline benchmark. ..

Interesting MG, be good to know what the relative proportions of contracts are. IIRC, transport-consumption of ethanol is only a few % (by volume) of crude oil derived fuels, so speculation in ethanol could in no way drive oil price, would you agree?

Shewww fly...I can't help it if you believe everything you are told by the powers that be.

If you were sincere you would go and look for data to support your case, instead you persist with the cliched mud throwing. Grow up.