Delmart Vreeland sentenced to 336 yrs for child sex crimes

[sunny]

shorter the_last_name_left???

"Questioning any part of the government's official story about 911 = fascism and anti-semitism."

I'm asking.

[Fat Lady Singing]

mad monks of Mulder

justdrew, I love this phrase. Is it yours? Made me smile in a thread that's threatening to verge into a schoolyard shoving match.

Please, everyone -- let's assume we're all (at least!) fairly intelligent people here. Some people may hold views that others feel are ignorant but I just don't believe anyone posting here is plain ol' dumb, as I've seen implied.

My two cents (not that it's worth even that these days): I don't understand why someone who feels like they're surrounded by the ignorant or the idiotic would stick around. Can anyone enlighten me?

[erosoplier]

Is the following a troofer song? I've been meaning to ask for a while - I can't say for sure what it's getting at (i'm hopeless at interpreting song lyrics), so I'd appreciate any opinions one way or another:


John Mellencamp - Without A Shot

Put your guns out on the table
Throw your bullets on the floor
This weary old house can't take it anymore
From the ovens in the kitchen
To the chains out in the dirt
Rope hanging in the bedroom
That's some of our dirty work

The distant sleeping shadows
That lie out in the yard
The wind that distorts the meanings
Of who we really are
Saluting of ourselves
As we pass by our mirrors
This show of phony adulation
Just masquerades all our fears

So we open up our eyes at midnight
See the setting of the sun
Foundation is crumbling
The inner structure's gone
Used up by corruption
And the passage of time
We hope we've got some fight left
Cause our children
Our children are dying

So we think that forgiveness
Is a God given right
And equality for all
Is just a waste of our time
With our nickel plated Jesus
Chained around our necks
Handing out verses of scripture
Like we wrote it down ourselves

Respect that we once had
Went up the water spout
Tried to keep it secret
But the secret was found out
Got to thinking high and mighty
Like everything was a lock
Some now say this house
Can be taken without a shot

So the hole gets dug deeper
With every wedding bell
And we sell each other down the road
Until there's nothing left to sell
And slowly but surely
We disappear without a trace
We point our fingers at each other
And say what the hell happened to this place
Without a shot
Without a shot
Without a shot

[sunny]

mad monks of Mulder

justdrew, I love this phrase. Is it yours? Made me smile in a thread that's threatening to verge into a schoolyard shoving match.

Please, everyone -- let's assume we're all (at least!) fairly intelligent people here. Some people may hold views that others feel are ignorant but I just don't believe anyone posting here is plain ol' dumb, as I've seen implied.

My two cents (not that it's worth even that these days): I don't understand why someone who feels like they're surrounded by the ignorant or the idiotic would stick around. Can anyone enlighten me?

I wish I could but I am as perplexed as you are.

[justdrew]

mad monks of Mulder

justdrew, I love this phrase. Is it yours? Made me smile in a thread that's threatening to verge into a schoolyard shoving match.

yeah, it came into being for the list. appropriate as needed.

[freemason9]

mad monks of Mulder

justdrew, I love this phrase. Is it yours? Made me smile in a thread that's threatening to verge into a schoolyard shoving match.

Please, everyone -- let's assume we're all (at least!) fairly intelligent people here. Some people may hold views that others feel are ignorant but I just don't believe anyone posting here is plain ol' dumb, as I've seen implied.

My two cents (not that it's worth even that these days): I don't understand why someone who feels like they're surrounded by the ignorant or the idiotic would stick around. Can anyone enlighten me?

I wish I could but I am as perplexed as you are.

I suspect that TLNL is a "troofer" in his own way, but he sees things from the perspective of someone focused on the White Power "fascist" movement. Those WP folks, by the way, are far too fearful to be of great danger to anyone. They're also very, very stupid.

I don't buy into the CD aspect for my own reasons (the main one being that it is a needlessly complex idea). I do, however, believe that there were those drawing government checks that had a good idea that 9/11 was going to happen, and they also knew the players (patsies) involved. It was only a matter of keeping track of them. The hijackers weren't exactly unknowns within the intelligence industry.

[vanlose kid]

deleted

[the_last_name_left]

I didn't think it needed pointing out. But it does.

I am not making such a dumb claim.

OK>?

Anyone who questions the USG version of 911 is a fascist.......

I haven't said that. If you think I have, then you've misunderstood me.

You can question 911 all you like - doesn't make you a fascist. Clear?

However, doggedly holding to political views and a conceptual framework which are commonplace amongst fascists is a more difficult issue to assess.

Agreed?

[RocketMan]

However, doggedly holding to political views and a conceptual framework which are commonplace amongst fascists is a more difficult issue to assess.

Now this is just plain insulting, no matter how you try to dress it up as pseudo-civilized debate.

It's almost as silly as Jonah Goldberg asserting vegetarianism links fascism and American liberalism.

Back to Mr. Vreeland, right?

[Hugh Manatee Wins]

.....
Back to Mr. Vreeland, right?

Firtst...Resolved: The 9/11 Truth Movement is firmly based on facts/evidence, NOT characterized by ignorant hateful paranoid right-wingers even though some people would like this to be a common attitude when the US starts killing lots of people in Afghanistan after Obama's inauguration.

In the future, BEWARE the meme, "people who are certain about something are just fanatics and probably evil, too."
It will come around many many times.

...I think all legal actions taken against Vreeland are all about the aftermath of 9/11 due to his controversial visibility online.

I also think trying to sort out Vreeland at this stage in the game is a bandwith sinkhole of mere conjecture.

[the_last_name_left]

For instance - the notion of some world conspiracy cabal effecting control over society through banks, media, economics and politics is not very far from Hitlerite fantasies.

Bankers, captains of industry, ruling elites, shadowy cabals - these can easily be seen as conceptual equivalences of the jews' role under nazism. Did nazism have to scapegoat jews, or could it have been anyone? Anyone, would have done, surely, as there's no reason to suppose jews deserved such victimisation.

And within 911 Troof the words bankers, elites, oligarchs really are understood as euphemisms for joooos.

It isn't good enough to say "Not everyone thinks like that." People certainly do think like that, and the framework isn't only anti-semitism it's the conceptual framework itself that's important - global conspiracy - shadowy cabal etc etc. However it's painted by conspiracists whom believe it, it always smacks of essentially the same concept.

And no - simply using that framework doesn't mean anyone is necessarily a fascist. The point is rather that the framework is there - the violence directed towards specific targets follows after that framework is in place - violence doesn't precede the framework, that is clear from rise of fascism.

Another thread shared between rise of fascism in germany and 911 troof is the undermining of confidence and belief in liberal democracy - a sense that the liberal state is incapable of producing the calm, order - and profits! - that liberal democracy professes to. What is 911 conspiracy if not an attack on the legitimacy of american democracy?

911 Troof seems to operate on a level of assuming the government is the root of all evil - and that nothing could be worse. But how many more shocks can american democracy take? How many national defeats and economic crises can it withstand? It surely isn't infinite?

There's a confusion over terms as well - something nazism exploited. Like 911 Troof, nazism was essentially very hostile to socialism, but it garbed itself in the revolutionary accoutrements of socialism - as does 911 troof. Nazism even called itself 'socialism'. I see overtones of this in 911 troof - an essential deep hostility to socialism, whilst proclaiming much of the socialist critique and iconography of socialism as its own. A simple crude example is Alex Jones's wholesale theft from Orwell - whilst denigrating orwell's politics, and suggesting Socialists are "the real enemy". Michael Moore's Sicko disappeared for troofers.

Then we have the nazi claims of capitalism and socialism both being jewish plots - two sides of the same coin. That's another shared framework between rise of nazism and 911 troof. There's a false claim shared by both that they are not capitalists, nor are they socialists. There's a shared pretence they occupy new ground. They both share the ambivalent claims that they reject broken or sick capitalism (jewish capitalism for nazis) but both promote a tacit aacceptance of it, claiming their own version won't be subject to such crises, as the problems stem not from capitalism itself per se, but rather with the sickness of capitalism - caused by globalists on the one hand (for troofers), and jews on the other (for nazism).

Then we have the threads of nationalism. Evidently 911 troof evokes deep feelings of nationalism, or patriotism, as yanks prefer. This feeds right back into 911 troofs roots in militia movement, where it meets christian identity, and crosses over into outright fascism big-time.

There are a lot of connections between the propaganda organs of 911 troof, the patriot movement and organised fascism. WorldNetDaily is run by Farrah - who sits on some kooky religious sect in Coeur D'alene. WND promote Jerome Corsi. Corsi is so appealing to the far-right he was found broadcasting to them. Cour d'Alene is hotbed of neo-nazism. There's Rivero, supporting all of Willis Carto's crap from Bollyn and the rest, and Curt Maynard and his racist drivel championing nazism; NoMoreWarsForIsrael; nordwave - joe fields etc. These are full-blown neo-nazis? And yet Rivero also hooks up with Alex Jones, with whom he shares a broadcaster and sponsors......and - importantly - a general worldview.

And it's that general worldview I am getting at. How much must one share of the ideas and conceptions of nazism before one really IS a nazi? And why are there all these ties between 911 troof and fascism? There must be reasons for it.

This is a very brief, off-the-cuff synopsis of my argument. I'm trying to distill a lot of stuff into simple terms. IMO it would take a book to do the topic justice - and someone cleverer than me - lol

[Elvis]

within 911 Troof the words bankers, elites, oligarchs really are understood as euphemisms for joooos

That statement is an insulting crock of BS.

[Elvis]

And, yeah, those are "simple terms" all right.

[the_last_name_left]

TLNL: You can question 911 all you like - doesn't make you a fascist. Clear?

However, doggedly holding to political views and a conceptual framework which are commonplace amongst fascists is a more difficult issue to assess.

rocketman: Now this is just plain insulting, no matter how you try to dress it up as pseudo-civilized debate.

Why is it insulting? I was asking a question.

Do you agree that at SOME (possibly inderterminate) POINT, a person's views cross over into political fascism - or neo-nazism?

Do you agree or disagree?

You must agree - else no-one can be fascist.

Of course, determining the political creed denoted as "fascism" is not a matter of mental or ethical geometry. BUT - if fascism exists as definable thing at all, then it must be possible to point to ideas and concepts which are inimical to it, and those which are symbiotic, or essential to it. It is the possession of such ideas, concepts, ethics and actions etc which determines if one is fascist or not.

At some point there must be a discernible group of ideas and beliefs and ethics and action which constitute fascism. Else it is a word with no meaning.

If one can distinguish those characteristics in someone or an organisation, or a movement, then it must reasonably be called the word describing those characteristics eg fascism. That's what definition IS.

[the_last_name_left]

TLNL: within 911 Troof the words bankers, elites, oligarchs really are understood as euphemisms for joooos

Elvis: That statement is an insulting crock of BS.

Why?

You might not consciously accept those as euphemisms for jooooos - but people do. Pointless denying it.