next round ?

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Postby Joe Hillshoist » Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:40 am

She said "To there best of my knowledge..." Feel free to challenge her on the facts.

What you typed wasn't that at all.

You just paid her out for being Israeli. Consciously or not.

But in general terms, do I think citizens of the supremacist state of Israel have a particular moral duty to condemn their government's criminality as loudly and as frequently as possible? Absolutely. Don't you?


I do actually.

Hava has never supported Israel's actions in Gaza to my knowledge.

Her statement that EU leaders "must be obeyed" by Israel is absurd: I contested it on the basis that those leaders are entirely complicit with and enabling of Israeli war crimes: Olmert and his gang have nothing to fear from the EU, and they know it.


So you and her are basically saying the same thing, but you don't agree cos she is from Israel?

Ireland ...

So what did you do about stopping Riverdance?
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Postby kenoma » Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:12 am

Joe Hillshoist wrote:Hava has never supported Israel's actions in Gaza to my knowledge.


I never said she did.

Joe Hillshoist wrote: So you and her are basically saying the same thing, but you don't agree cos she is from Israel?

I don't think we are saying the same thing - she says the EU "must be obeyed" by Israel, I say it was the EU leaders who came as supplicants to meet Olmert. So that's the source of disagreement on that point, not her citizenship.
Expectation calibration and expectation management is essential at home and internationally. - Obama foreign policy advisor Samantha Power, February 21, 2008
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Postby SonOfKitty » Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:26 am

Hava has always been disingenuous at best. I thought she said she would be gone forever? Instead she reappears as an apologist for Israel....sad and pathetically transparent.
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Postby Joe Hillshoist » Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:49 am

I've seen her denounce Israel's actions before, and its leaders as warmongers. I dunno how apologist that makes her.


kenoma

I don't think we are saying the same thing - she says the EU "must be obeyed" by Israel, I say it was the EU leaders who came as supplicants to meet Olmert. So that's the source of disagreement on that point, not her citizenship.


Given that Europe is Israel's largest trading partner, and the huge call from inside europe to pull out of Gaza, and the call for boycotts, why would the EU be supplicant to Israel? If anything its the opposite.

Especially considering that every few years there is a call for Israel to join the EU from somewhere or other.
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Postby kenoma » Mon Jan 19, 2009 2:16 am

Joe Hillshoist wrote:
Given that Europe is Israel's largest trading partner, and the huge call from inside europe to pull out of Gaza, and the call for boycotts, why would the EU be supplicant to Israel? If anything its the opposite.


Read the article I posted, I'm not going over it again. Point is you're now admitting I had a legitimate disagreement with hava, so your "You just paid her out for being Israeli" line is bullshit.
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Postby Joe Hillshoist » Mon Jan 19, 2009 2:25 am

No it isn't. You could have JUST challenged her on the facts.

Without all the your government this your whatever that.

When you pay our Bush and Cheney for all the crimes they may have committed do you address the Americans on the board with:

"...your government this your whatever that...."
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barking

Postby hava1 » Mon Jan 19, 2009 2:28 am

Kenoma,you are barking at the wrong tree, i am too busy to calm down your very misguided outburst. Since i have been in those "blind rage" places myself (here too), I will simply overlook that one. Take your complaints to a more useful alley. As for the overchewed debate on tail/dog/wag who has the power, israel of the big ones, i have no desire to go down that hole again. frankly, and at last, i don't care what the answer is, suffice it to say that i don't condone either the israeli or the european governments approach, along with many other citizens all over the world.

“When the Irishman is found outside of Ireland in another environment, he very often becomes a respected man. The economic and intellectual conditions that prevail in his own country do not permit the development of individuality. No one who has any self-respect stays in Ireland, but flees afar as though from a country that has undergone the visitation of an angered Jove.”
James Joyce quote



Thanks Joe and others.

Epi, i ran out of resources to relocate, so unless there's a line for refugees soon, outside the embassies, i will have to endure whatever is coming, here, with a government that particularly does not like me, and the blind attacks from outside. if there is a god, that's the time to trust her.

I write in Hebrew so i don't think the links will be useful, except one very small bit ([post), in Dissident Voice, on Jan 11, 2009, in English.
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Postby AlicetheKurious » Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:49 am

"If you're not careful the newspapers will have you hating the oppressed and loving the people doing the oppressing." - Malcolm X
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yes

Postby hava1 » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:25 am

"
Are the US and Israel planning a Broader...."


I think so, not sure who are the candidates, i mentioned Egypt as a hunch, the rest is too obvious and follows.

Following the Lieberman "roadmap", that would makes sense, along with a redefinition of the status of Israeli Arabs, as either "loyal" or out. (and on the way, ousting a few redundant Jews..who make trouble).

BTW, the few here who are against all this are eating shit by large spoons. so the numbers are dropping ..

And to those who used to read Haaretz, the publisher has fired all the left leaning journalists, during the war, except for Gideon LEvy (who has the patronage of Shimon Peres, whatever that means). ALL the rest of the gang is out, in a "Cleansing" op, not before the journalists started a Union in the paper and filed a law suit to the Labor Court, but now they are already out of a job.
Ruth Sinai Or Kashti, Guy LEshem, Ran Resnik Dana Gilerman, MOr Gordon, Adar Zeevi, Asaf Carmal, Tami Litani
Earlier this year Meron Rapaport and Amira Hess,

NOt that i ever thought that Haaretz was nothing but a honey trap for the left here, but still...who would have thought ?
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Postby tom the mad » Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:55 am

hava1

"To the best of my understanding there is a mutual ceasefire, for the visit of those who must be obeyed (sarkozi, brown, merkel and Italian MP all came tonight to visit Olmert).
In the next two days they will decide how they want israel to stick it up to the USA, or something, and we'll know more."


I hoped the above was sarcasm. Sad.!
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Postby epi » Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:25 pm

American Dream wrote:That they intend to openly take over the Patagonia seems doubtful, however...

Signs of covert preparations have been apparent though. The stories below are five years old so maybe they are mostly of historical interest, and then again maybe not.

2004-04-16: What are Israeli Army Reconnaisance Teams doing in Patagonia ?
http://www.kawther.info/K20040416A.html
The constant presence of IDF groups in Patagonia is being registered by the Chileans of the region, not in a political sense, but based on their experience. There are lots of stories like the one with the guys sneaking out from a window making their rounds in the region. I was asked several times if I was from Israel before renting a room. At most lodges where I lived I was told that they would not take the IDFs ("Israelitas"). This seems to have made a market for those who specialize in them possible.

It"s painful to talk about this, but for the sake of peace I can only hope that the Patagonian people from Chile (and Argentina), will not have to experience what the Palestinians experienced, that none of them will have painful memories like my memories from the Israeli occupation. This is my wish for Patagonia, for these nice people which I met, for this beautiful piece of art made by the nature. I hope that both people and land will never know the occupation which destroys humanity, beauty and the nature. I hope that never a settlement will be implanted into this beautiful end of the world. In the same way, I do not wish a new Holocaust for my friend Anat and our peoples. I hope that peace will soon come to our country and that the occupation will end.


The vistitor statistics at the end of that page is of specific interest and I think it is useful to recognize that national entities or governments aren't neccessarily the primary players in this game. Here are a few quotes from a series of interesting posts by a purported ex-BND operative embedded in an equally interesting analysis.

2004-12-19: Ears Analysis
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum ... e60041/pg1
Even Ariel Sharon has purchased for himself property in Greece and many member of the Israeli establishment are making preparations to relocate to South America, most likely Patagonia where huge tracts of land have already been purchased by the Israeli government with funds supplied by the United States. Indeed, we estimate that around 20 percent of the defence budget allocated for Iraq has mysteriously disappeared into this account.

Did Mr Wolfowitz inherit any of this money? Let me reply in the affirmative. We have evidence that not only Mr Wolfowitz, but other leading Hidden Hand members of the American and Israeli establishment are already drawing upon funds estimated at over 10 billion US dollars in various Swiss bank accounts that are primarily designed to offset the personal costs involved in relocating homes, businesses, wealth and security operations to Patagonia.

Why Patagonia?

Please allow me to make one thing very clear. None of these gentlemen will shed a single tear when ordinary Israeli citizens are destroyed in a nuclear holocaust. Their concern for them is only marginally more so than it is for the American people.

If there is a continuing move to a world order of concentrated power, then this would rely first on the destruction of the American people and the American system of government. This is already happening in the United States and the biggest culprits are to be found in the American government itself.

It seems that a grouping of international corporate entities and financial institutions have decided that America at this late stage is only good for projecting military force, and so it will use up American resources to advance its own agenda until there is not much left of American power and credibility.

At the geopolitical level there are only two main beneficiaries: Israel and the City of London (Israel will then be destroyed by the CoL and international corporate power groups). At the financial-imperial level, the major corporations and institutions involved in the bleeding away of American military power have little to lose, since all of them have sufficient assets outside of US territories and would survive the collapse of the United States as a global power.

So if this is what you mean by a world order, then you are correct. It will not be a global system of control connived by nation states, but rather by corporate and financial entities (who already enjoy enormous power and influence at all levels in all countries).


Jeff wrote about this event back then and did a great job of verifying the posters claims but eventally came to doubt the story and it faded in a fog of uncertainty.
http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2 ... n-guy.html
http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2 ... owitz.html

However, there is an additional piece of information that IMO clear that fog. According to the analysis, the stated reasons for posting was to negotiate security for Europe against a perceived terrorist threat against European population centres, among them Frankfurt and the ECB. The poster did that by spilling beans in an escalated fashion in a series of posts lasting over a period of several days.

At the time it occurred that if an intelligence agency were blackmailing another power over a public channel, then there would be signs of this elsewhere because at least the counterpart must be able to know it wasn’t a hoax. A ‘business card’ sort of would be left somewhere. In looking for unusual media activity I found a der Spiegel article, written by security affairs correspondent Susanne Koelbl published one day after the last post and concluded that if this article could be correlated to the contents of the posts, I would know it was authentic because given the context, only the BND or another similar entity would have the means and motive to insert timely news items in a mainstream media publication.

2004-12-20: From Bloody Rags to Black Riches.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/spi ... 65,00.html
60 billion barrels of oil lie under the ocean around the Falkland Islands, say experts. Twenty years after the war in the South Atlantic, the islands have struck it rich. But who does the oil belong to? Argentina continues to eye the archipeligo even as British oil companies start moving in for the drill.


The Der Spiegel article is unusual in that it tells us about a little known reserve of 60 bln barrels of oil on the continental shelf outside the Falkland islands, at the time the only mainstream article that could be googled and yahooed mentioning this among a plethora of info from oil prospecting companies. It also connected the oil reserve with the Falklands war thus making the motives of that conflict obvious, something that certainly would not pass unnoticed by the British who were the counterpart in the negotiation.

Thus there is a correlation between both publishing date and the contents. The probability of co-incidence here is really very very small and that in my view confirms the posters identity whether the contents is true or not. After authentication the next step is to assess truth and I refer to Jeffs first post above and just add that with identity and context established it seems fair to conclude that the general public was not the real audience, we were just witnesses. The real audience was British power groups and it is hard to conceive that it would be possible to bargain with fake information because the information must be known by both parties to work in a blackmail context. Some parts may be conjecture and other possibly coded but context strongly suggests that core information refered to shared secrets.

Now then, is there a background story to this somewhere?
Yes, the unique Joe Vialls stories about the Falklands alternative and Fortress America describing a purported Israeli plan to take over Patagonia and the rest of America with maps over the Falklands oil reserves and numbers quite different from Der Spiegels 60 bln barrels but his website is gone and I can't find a copy right now.

edit: defer -> refer, grammar.
Last edited by epi on Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: barking

Postby epi » Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:15 pm

hava1 wrote:Epi, i ran out of resources to relocate, so unless there's a line for refugees soon, outside the embassies, i will have to endure whatever is coming, here, with a government that particularly does not like me, and the blind attacks from outside. if there is a god, that's the time to trust her.


Best of luck, take care.
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Postby AlicetheKurious » Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:50 am

So if this is what you mean by a world order, then you are correct. It will not be a global system of control connived by nation states, but rather by corporate and financial entities (who already enjoy enormous power and influence at all levels in all countries).


As good a definition for the zionist power configuration as any.

The zionist state is basically a hyper-militarized outpost strategically-located in the Middle East. Though the zionist power configuration, which includes vast media, financial, political, criminal and manpower resources distributed web-like all over the globe, is not at all limited to the geographic boundaries of the zionist state, it is undoubtedly very convenient to also have a physical political/geographic state with membership in the UN, its own armed forces and where its own, bizarre and unique laws are enforced.

Though the evidence is overwhelming that the groundwork for this transnational hegemonic empire is already in place, and though the nature of this empire is most nakedly on display in Palestine for all to see, most analysts only focus on one piece of the puzzle at a time. Thus, we have a great deal of material on the 'zionist lobby' in the U.S. and how it operates, or on the 'zionist lobby' in the UK, or on the so-called 'Russian Mafia', or on Israel's role in the arming and training of death squads in Latin America or Asia or Africa, or on the Mossad's role in recruiting espionage agents and sayanim throughout the world, or on Israeli tech companies embedding telecommunications equipment with 'back-door' spying technologies that are then provided to government and military facilities all over the world.

We have data about the assassination, blackmailing and bribery nexus that has been associated with Israeli embassies and consulates. In a unipolar world dominated by the American superpower, we also know about the virtual takeover of strategic positions in the Pentagon by zionist ideologues (recently represented by Richard Perle, Douglas Feith, Eric Edelman, Peter Rodman, Dov Zakheim, Abram Shulsky, Edward Luttwak, and dozens of others) who enjoy a virtual revolving door between powerful zionist organizations and the agencies of global power.

Paul Wolfowitz, the 'architect of the Iraq war' is one of many such examples: despite his mediocre abilities and the absence of any positive accomplishments to his credit, has moved effortlessly from being Deputy Secretary of Defense in the U.S. to Chairman of the World Bank, where after a series of scandals he was subsequently replaced by another zionist, Robert Zoellick, while he found a cozy niche at the American Enterprise Institute, formulating policy for the American empire towards Africa and international economic development; interestingly enough, he is currently also Chairman of the US-Taiwan Business Council.

The current governor of the Bank of Israel was previously Vice-Chairman of Citigroup and Chief Economist at the International Monetary Fund; his predecessor as head of the Bank of Israel, Yaakov Frenkel, came from the World Bank. One way to recognize these zionist agents is by examining their career paths, which are quite miraculously smooth and filled with prestigious titles and honors, in spite of the fact that neither their qualifications nor their abilities would seem to warrant such success.

About Yaakov Frenkel, for example, the uber-zionist journalist Barry Chamish, incensed by Ariel Sharon's determination to "withdraw" from Gaza and convinced that it was evidence of a global conspiracy against the zionist state orchestrated by the "NWO" through instruments like Yaakov Frenkel, head of the Bank of Israel, quoted from Haaretz Magazine (November 27, 1998) -- Chamish's comments are in italics:

"Tel Aviv University offered him a chance to earn a doctorate at the University of Chicago and then return to Israel to set up a School of Economics."

My, wasn't that a big step forward, offering a whole school of economics to a Histadrut worker without even a PhD, let alone professorship?

"After Frenkel got his doctorate in 1970, Chicago offered him a spot as professor. In 1973, when David Rockefeller retired from Chase Manhattan, the bank decided to commemorate his life's work by endowing a professorship in international economics. A search committee set up by the bank chose the University of Chicago and Frenkel to set up the chair."

How wonderful for Frenkel! Not three years at the U of C and David Rockefeller, chairman of the Council On Foreign Relations and possibly the top man in the NWO, chooses to employ Frenkel to run his new chair.

"`It was the Mecca of the global economy,' says Frenkel. `It was a huge factory for doctoral students, catering to hundreds of students from all over the world, who now fill the most senior positions in their countries.' And so Frenkel cast his net. All over the world are former students who consider Frenkel their guru."

Thank you, Dr. Frenkel for that marvelous summation of the tactics and location of world globalism. Clearly, Frenkel is either a naive tool of the NWO, placing moles in the governments of the world, or he is already an insider willingly doing its worst work.

The following story, told by Frenkel, illustrates just what kind of circle he moves in. It took place in 1991 in Davos, Switzerland. Davos, Switzerland is headquarters of the World Economic Forum, where the NWO plots its next international economic fiascoes. Frenkel then relates how three of his fans who he met there soon took over the senior government economic posts of Czechoslovakia and ran the country based on his principles. He failed to mention that within a year Czechoslovakia had divided into two.


"In late 1986, Frenkel was asked by the International Monetary Fund to set up a framework for coordinating international economic policy. That same year the G-5 (later G-7) decided to set up a new global policy forum and added two new members. Frenkel took on the task and moved his family to an upscale suburb of Washington."

"Frenkel's stategies helped to integrate the global economy and the international coordination apparatus that he conceived became a prestigious body wielding a great deal of influence. Frenkel moved on to the post of director of research at the IMF, which then had 150 member states (there are now close to 200) and was responsible for generating forecasts and assessments of the world's economy. `In the framework of the G-7 , I became the close confidante of top policy-makers in the seven states, at the level of finance ministers, central bank governors and heads of state. In order to get my advice, they had to put complete trust in me and open all their books for me.'"


http://www.truthinmedia.org/truthinmedi ... -12-2.html

By a strange coincidence, the University of Chicago, where Frenkel, Wolfowitz and so many other powerful zionist zealots received their academic credentials, was where Professor Leo Strauss disseminated his Likudnik "neoconservative" ideology among a number of disciples who later moved on to powerful careers influencing global finance and politics.

Interestingly, the current head of the IMF, who was nominated for the post by the right-wing zionist President of France, Nicolas Sarkozy, portrays himself as a leftist. Dominique Strauss-Kahn (no relation, presumably, to Leo Strauss) is a former high-ranking member of the French Socialist Party who was one of the main architects of the Socialist Party's failed 2007 election strategy and 'special consultant' to Sarkozy's opponent Segolene Royal before jumping ship immediately after the election and joining the cabinet of right-wing President Sarkozy.

The Socialist Party's campaign in 2007, of which Strauss-Kahn was the architect, has been described thus:

SP presidential candidate Ségolène Royal ran on a programme that was to a large extent indistinguishable from that of Sarkozy. It was anti-immigrant, nationalist, militaristic and insistent that France maintain its nuclear arsenal. Royal proposed to place delinquent youth under the control of the army and insisted that there should be “no rights without duties,” a call for the unemployed to be obliged to accept the jobs they are offered on pain of losing their benefits, long a favourite slogan of Sarkozy. ...

At the SP’s summer university, Royal and her supporters not only defended her right-wing election campaign, but spent a great deal of time lauding Sarkozy’s socially repressive and politically reactionary programme. ...

Not enough finance was going into law-and-order and prison building, Royal complained. She defended Sarkozy’s minimum service law, an attack on the right to strike, while accusing Sarkozy of “policies which, for the moment, are not preparing France and the French to take up the challenge of growth and globalisation,” as well as national indebtedness.

...

In La Rochelle, Royal expressed her support for US imperialism in Iraq by praising the “remarkable” James Baker report and the “firm and courageous” positions taken up by the Democratic speaker of the US House of Representatives, Nancy Pelosi, who has, in fact, consistently supported the financing of the neo-colonial occupation of Iraq.


http://www.wsws.org/articles/2007/sep20 ... -s13.shtml

No wonder the French Socialist Party has been described as "imploding" and "self-destructing"...

As for Italy, one member of parliament who ran at the invitation of billionaire media tycoon and Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, another zionist, describes her campaign this way:

“I ran for a place in parliament as a representative of the Liguria district. I held rallies in Genoa and other cities in the region,” she recounts. “But I didn’t talk with the people about local problems. I told them that the most important thing for their Italian identity is to stand by Israel’s side.” Nirenstein called her most recent book “Israele Siamo Noi” (”Israel Is Us”). By “us,” she was referring, of course, to Italians.

http://peacepalestine.wordpress.com/200 ... arliament/

In the UK, a good overview of Israel's Influence in Westminster can be found in the article by the same name.

To quote from one global anti-zionist organization:

Beyond shaping the creation of Israel, Zionism determined its international policy of military dominance and antagonism toward its neighbours, and established a sophisticated global network of organizations, political lobbies, public relation firms, campus clubs, and schools to sustain and perpetuate Zionist ideas in Jewish communities and the general public.

Billions of US dollars flow annually to Israel to sustain the occupation and Israel's sophisticated and brutal army. The war machine they fund is a leader in the global arms industry, which drains resources craved by a world in desperate need of water, food, health care, housing and education. Europe, Canada and the United Nations, meanwhile, prop up the infrastructure of occupation under the guise of humanitarian aid to Palestinian people. Together, the US and its allies cooperate in deepening the domination of the region and suppressing popular movements.

An international network of Zionist institutions and organizations support the Israeli military and militant Jewish settlements with direct funds. These organizations also provide the political support necessary for legitimizing and promoting policies and aid packages. In individual countries, these organizations censor criticisms of Israel and target individuals and organizations with blacklists, violence, imprisonment, deportation, unemployment and other economic hardship.

These organizations facilitate the spread of Islamophobia. They beat the drums of war abroad and push repressive legislation at home. In the United States and Canada, Zionist organizations helped pass "anti-terrorist" legislation making organizing in support of boycott, divestment and sanctions against Israel and support for Palestinian, Iranian, Iraqi, and Lebanese and Muslim organizations subject to prosecution as aiding terrorism and committing treason. In both Europe and the US, supposedly "Jewish" organizations are now at the forefront of pushing for war with Iran.


http://www.ijsn.net/about_us/charter/

But this phenomenon, of zionist infiltration and shady global alliances with fascist elements, is not limited to North America and Europe. In fact, as the American Empire begins its visible decline, it is becoming increasingly apparent that the transnational zionist empire is actually gaining in power and influence rather than declining along with it. It can be said that the Fourth Reich is indeed being built, this time cleverly spearheaded by a group claiming moral and legal immunity as the heirs of the victims of the Third Reich, when they are in fact the ideological heirs of its fascist and genocidal leadership.

India is one case in point:


Hindutva, Fascism and Zionism: alliances of convenience?

The RSS leader Madhav Sadashiv Golwalkar openly admired Hitler and the idea of the ‘separation of the races.’ He saw an affinity to Nazism in the Brahmanical concept of caste purity, now applied in a religious sense to ‘Hindus’ and ‘Muslims.’ It is rather surprising that the Zionists of today see an ‘ally’ in the Hindutva movement, given the fascist roots of this movement. Marzia Casolari, an Italian scholar has documented archival evidence proving without doubt that Hindu extremist groups like the RSS and Hindu Mahasabha had direct links with the Italian fascist state. I quote Casolari’s conclusions at length:6

a) The main historical organizations and leaders of Hindu nationalism had a distinctive and sustained interest in fascism and nazism;

b) Fascist ideological influences on Hindu nationalism were present and relevant;

c) To a certain extent, these influences were channelled through direct contacts between Hindu nationalists and members of the Italian fascist State. No doubt, beginning with the early 1920s, and up to the second world war, Hindu nationalists looked at the political reality of fascist Italy, and subsequently of nazi Germany, as a source of inspiration.

The following quote is from a statement issued by the Hindu Mahasabha in 1939:

Germany's solemn idea of the revival of the Aryan culture, the glorification of the Swastika, her patronage of Vedic learning and the ardent championship of the tradition of Indo-Germanic civilization are welcomed by the religious and sensible Hindus of India with a jubilant hope. Only a few socialists headed by Pandit J. Nehru have created a bubble of resentment against the present Government of Germany, but their activities are far from having any significance in India. The vain imprecations of Mahatma Gandhi against Germany's indispensable vigour in matters of internal policy obtain but little regard in so far as they are uttered by a man who has always betrayed and confused the country with an affected mysticism. I think that Germany's crusade against the enemies of Aryan culture will bring all the Aryan nations of the World to their senses and awaken the Indian Hindus for the restoration of their lost glory.’

In a book titled "We, or our nationhood defined," Golwalkar, who became general secretary of the RSS, stated:

‘German national pride has now become the topic of the day. To keep up the purity of the nation and its culture, Germany shocked the world by her purging the country of the semitic races - the Jews. National pride at its highest has been manifested here. Germany has also shown how well-nigh impossible it is for races and cultures, having differences going to the mot [?], to be assimilated into one united whole, a good lesson for us in Hindustan to learn and profit by.’

Who were the equivalents of the Jews in the estimation of the author of these words? India’s Muslims without a doubt. By extrapolating German racial ideas to Indian society, Golwalkar and Savarkar recast a complex religious-cultural historical identity into blunt European racial terms. Accordingly in their eyes, ‘Hindus’ and ‘Muslims’ became, ‘Germans and ‘Jews.’

The fact that even fifty odd years after the end of Nazism and Italian fascism, the RSS and its various Hindutva offspring like the BJP have neither denied nor repudiated these ties, or the valorization and glorification of Nazism by their founding leaders, speaks volumes about their real character. V.D. Savarkar, a militant anti-colonialist turned proto-fascist leader of the Hindu Mahasabha, regarding the goals of his organization: (quoted by Casolari)

‘But now that our interests were so closely bound together the essential thing was for Hinduism and Great Britain to be friends; and the old antagonism was no longer necessary. The Hindu Mahasabha, he went on to say, favoured an unambiguous undertaking of Dominion Status at the end of the war.’

These words from the leader of an organization that refused to participate in the Quit India movement, and which offered its services to the British War Office in support of the colonial occupier in the inter-imperialist war. In a revealing twist of irony, Savarkar in the 1950s was also full of praise for the settler colonialism of the Israeli Zionist state, and saw an affinity between Hindutva ideology and Zionism.

More recently, one Aravind Ghosh, a "Research Associate" with the U.S. based Zionist organization "The Freeman Center." This organization has a magazine called "The Maccabean" in which Ariel Sharon (who currently has cases pending against him in Belgium and Lebanon for war crimes committed in Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps during Israel’s invasion of Lebanon) of Israel is a "frequent contributor." Aravind Ghosh’s title is "Hindu Historian & Publisher." In the center’s own words, "It is his expertize on Moslem behavior and atrocities in the Indian sub-continent that makes him a valuable contributor to the Freeman Center
."7

Here is a sample of this self-proclaimed "leading historian:"
‘Hindus should thus recognise that Israel can be one of its few reliable allies. From Israel Bharat has much to learn. Instead of peace treaties it should have followed the Jewish state'' example in annexing the lands of the aggressor. Pakistan is eager for war again. This time it will be different if Hindus follow the Israeli example. The jawans should carry the saffron into Lahore, which is the natural capital of East Punjab and the city of Lav. How could Lahore become a city of Islam any more than Jerusalem? These are just two of the examples of Islam's theft of the cultural icons of others…Islamic fascists see Bharat as the soft spot to propagate their irrational creed and foment violence. India tries to placate them. Israel expels them, This is what Bharat should do. If they hate Hindu Rashtra so much they are free to leave for dar'ul Islam.’

As foul and hateful as this lunatic sounds, it is curious that he also hails Savarkar as a pro-zionist in his article. It was Savarkar who praised Hitler’s policies towards Germany’s Jews and saw in it an analogy to his own fantasies. If we were to go with the understanding that Zionism is opposed to Nazism and the holocaust, then one would wonder how come, a pro-Israel Zionist organization like the Freeman Center calls a follower of the Hindutva creed, a valuable contributor to its cause? Would Jewish people not be offended by this alliance? Or is it possible that the legacy of the Jewish people is perhaps secondary to the interests of Zionism?

In that case, Zionism rhymes and sounds like Hindutva: an ideology that makes use of a particular set of symbols and cultural ideas towards ends that not only political and territorial, but also racist and chauvinist. In other words, fascist. The enemy is clearly expressed by this alliance: the Indian Muslims and the largely Muslim Palestinians, and Arabs. If Savarkar’s two views, 1) that Hitler’s policy towards the Jews was commendable and applicable to Muslims in India, and 2) that Zionism’s policy towards the Palestinians is commendable and worthy of emulation, are not logically contradictory views, but part of the same single logic, then the Zionist alliance with Hindutva is one that will certainly offend any Jewish person. Is this an issue being raised by non-Zionist Jewish people? How can the people who suffered so greatly under the tyrannical evil of Hitler allow such an insult to their heritage by those who claim to speak for all Jewish people, the Zionists? As Hindus and Muslims who are opposed to Hindutva mobilize their opposition to this 21st century fascism, which claims to speak for all Hindus, it will be heartening to see that Jewish people also mobilize to fight the evil of Hindutva’s ally, Zionism. Nevertheless, this alliance ties Zionism with a heritage its victims have easily seen, but which Zionists unfailingly deny: that Zionism, is fascism. It is more akin to Nazism, than say to the ideology of liberal democracy. In the latter, pretences notwithstanding, there is at least no explicit assertion that one group of people have their rights enshrined under divine, man-made and whatever other laws, while another group is to be targeted and exterminated as their rights to exist are not only completely absent, but considered inimical to the favored group. There are striking parallels between the assertions made by Zionists and those made by the Nazis. Consider for example the following statements made by Cal Thomas, a Zionist spokesperson masquerading as a journalist/columnist in a 21st century American news outlet and Joseph Goebbels, the unsavoury and bloodthirsty megalomaniac who was Propaganda Minister in the Nazi regime:

Cal Thomas, 2001: "Israel should declare its intention to transfer large numbers of its Palestinian residents to Arab nations... Eviction is a better avenue to stability. Will it happen? Probably not. Should it? Yes."

Joseph Goebbels, 1942: "The Jewish question will have to be written up in a plan on a pan-European scale. There remain more than eleven million Jews in Europe. In the first place it is necessary to concentrate them all in the east. After the war we will be able eventually to assign them an island, perhaps Madagascar. In any case, there will be no peace in Europe as long as the Jews on the Continent are not totally excluded."

(excerpted from an essay "Meeting of Minds," by this author)

To advocate the 'ethnic cleansing' of Palestinians, Cal Thomas resorts to the usual fascistic routine: declare the Palestinians as a problem that only Israeli, and American military brutishness can solve, through murder, and mayhem, in other words, a 'final solution.' This mentality unites all fascists no matter which hole they crawl out of; Hindutvadis claim a false 'victim' status as the excuse to launch a genocide against their enemies, the Muslims and minorities of India, while their buddies in crime, the Zionists dutifully proclaim that theirs is the only humanity worth worrying about since after all, they can always point to the horrors of the second world war and Nazism, even when they continue to terrorize and massacre Palestinians every day.


http://www.geocities.com/virodhi2001/In ... ce2001.htm

While one could easily fill a number of books with similar alliances successfully cultivated between zionist agents and fascist elements all over the globe, and the subsequent meteoric rise of these fascist elements to positions of power, to believe that the ambitions of this incredibly powerful and cohesive global web of zionist power-brokers, stretching from Asia to Latin America, and from Africa to Northern Europe, are limited to the narrow geo-political interests of the zionist state, is naive at best. It is not supported by the facts, which point to a much larger plan, global in ambition just as its ideologues are global in reach.
"If you're not careful the newspapers will have you hating the oppressed and loving the people doing the oppressing." - Malcolm X
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Postby American Dream » Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:26 pm

There is lots and lots of selective filtering of information to lead towards specious conclusions. In this case, a picture is worth a thousand words.

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Postby tom the mad » Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:52 pm

How Bin Laden Bankrupted America

The five ways ......by Jon Basil Utley

For a man who spent years living in caves, Osama bin Laden sure knows his Sun Tzu and the basics of jujitsu. Sun Tzu's famous dictum was "know yourself" and "know your enemy." Jujitsu is based upon using your enemy's strength against him, e.g., like Jack in "Jack and the Beanstalk," who used the giant's own size and anger to get him to crash from his own weight. Bin Laden understood that the way to beat America was to turn its power back upon itself. His early stated aim was to bankrupt America. He knew his own weaknesses, and he profoundly understood America's, how its pride and fears could trigger irrational, self-destructive reactions.

The genius of bin Laden's pinprick attacks, costing a few hundred thousand dollars, has left America reeling with two unending multi-trillion-dollar wars it doesn't know how to get out of. He knew that his own strength was mainly in his appeal to the minds of men, particularly to the lost dignity of Muslims trampled under the heel of their own dictators, Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, and America's military. Getting rid of the "far" enemy was the way to take on the "near" ones.

Instigating America to destroy Iraq was a triumph of genius. He must have known about the neoconservative cabal in Washington that was itching to start wars and destroy Iraq. In bin Laden's wildest dreams he then imagined that he could get an enraged America to destroy his enemies while, at the same time, isolating itself from allies and becoming seriously weakened. His prime Arab enemy, secular nationalist socialism, was embodied by the Ba'athist rulers in Iraq. Once destroyed, Muslim resistance could be channeled to religious fundamentalism as the only remaining force honest and profound enough to challenge Arab dictators and American soldiers successfully. In that sense he was allied with Israel, again an intelligent strategy of harnessing his enemies' strength, which, for different reasons, feared Iraq as the most modern, secular nation among the Arabs far more than it feared Muslim fundamentalists. Indeed, in Palestine, Israel built up Islamist Hamas at first as a counterforce to the secular PLO. Successful terrorists come from the well educated, not from fundamentalist fanatics.

Next was his hope that he might get America to destroy his Shi'ite enemy, Iran. He almost succeeded in this too. His prime aim, though, was to get America bogged down in endless, resource-sapping wars on the Asian landmass and disrupt oil flows that benefited his enemies.

Bin Laden understood how America's religious fundamentalists, who had inordinate power in Washington, could be encouraged to sustain religious wars. He "knew" them precisely because he understood his own Muslim fundamentalists, as indeed also the Israeli ones. All could work together in his scheming mind to wreck the global economy, which so benefited American power. In 2002 at a party in my home, I said to Peru's brilliant economist Hernando de Soto that, of course, bin Laden's objective was to drive America out of the Middle East. He replied to me, "Not just that, out of the whole Third World!"

The actual crash in America came about because of the wars, in several ways:

First, financing the wars with debt was the final straw that broke the camel's back. No one knew how much debt would break America, but doubling the national debt from $5 trillion to $10 trillion, with new trillions being borrowed now, finally did it. A government at war seeks political support. Spending billions for an unpopular war and its waste makes it far more difficult to deny billions for more welfare. That's why America is called a warfare-welfare state. Welfare began in Germany in the 19th century when Bismarck sought popular support for his military ventures. It was the trade-off.

Second, the destruction of Iraq, and Bush's constant threats to start bombing Iran, which could have closed down the Strait of Hormuz, brought about sky-high oil prices, which then busted world prosperity. Still, bin Laden might not have imagined that hedge funds would feed the speculation, and that Bush would not release oil from the petroleum reserve, which could have broken the price, because he wanted to keep it in reserve for war against Iran. Then the subsequent collapse of oil prices dried up a major source of foreign buyers for U.S. government bonds, which finance America's wars and reckless debts.

Third, all of Washington's attention was absorbed by the wars, leaving little time or energy for dull domestic issues such as debating reforms to the financial markets. Anyone who questioned the wars' costs was dismissed as unpatriotic. Lies are part of waging war, and losing discredits and exposes the leaders' lies. From discredited American leaders, it was a short step to discredited American financial markets.

Fourth was the toxic alliance of neoconservatives and religious fundamentalists. The neocons were academic Washington policy wonks who dreamed of ruling the world. The "fundies" provided electoral support, because they viewed America as doing God's work among the foreign heathens. Their extremists indeed wanted chaos in the Middle East to "hurry up" God's plans for Armageddon. Instead they served bin Laden's goals.

Fifth, war spending deficits were in effect a massive Keynesian pump-priming operation, bound in the end to leave an economic hangover. Wars make the economy boom with seeming prosperity, but they are actually incredible wastes of resources. Over $200 million for each new fighter plane, $1,000 a day for mercenaries, massive corruption and incompetence in the military occupation – even bin Laden could not have anticipated how costly the war would become.

All of this was indeed foreseen by the wars' many critics, but they could not break through in the major media against the powers and lies of the Bush administration.

Editor John Feffer forecast the wars' consequences precisely in 2002:

"The successful realization of bin Laden's secret strategy will happen not with a bang but with a whimper. Having failed to use the unipolar moment for the world's advantage, the United States runs the risk of following the examples of Russia and England and Turkey, all faded empires whose ambitions overreached themselves. In the worst-case scenario, the U.S. will become the sick man of North America, a victim of military hypertrophy, extremes of wealth and poverty, decay of civil infrastructure, and loss of competitive economic advantage."

At least Americans are told that Washington "succeeded" in preventing any more attacks on the homeland. Maybe, but the more likely reason there have been no further attacks was explained in a letter to the editor of Foreign Policy magazine by researcher Laura Garcés:

"But one could venture that Osama bin Laden has no reason now to expose himself and expend massive resources when he accomplished exactly what he wanted: billions of dollars of expenditures in launching wars, the total neglect of infrastructure, the loss of thousands of tourists who are wary of staying in line for hours dealing with airport. Decay and bankruptcy is what he sought, and fear is what he wanted to instill. Can anyone doubt that he succeeded?"

http://antiwar.com/utley/

Tom ...When will Americans wake up from this nightmare.?
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