Fox Network Dollhouse Show - Hip MKULTRA

[marmot]

hmm..

[Penguin]

But maybe you should entertain the idea that your reaction is *yours* because of who you are, and not indicative of some diabolical plot by the writers.

Not diabolical, but everyday. Its also a product of your culture.
Which alone makes it bad, Im sorry to say. You really do think of your American culture too highly. That might be the basic fault here.

Fanboi....Sheesh.

Maybe you should also look at why you are who you are.

continentalist bigotry.

trendy.

No.

A mirror.

I just love it how Pan says "Its just your perception",
when it could just as well be his perception that is subjective and faulted.
That doesnt seem to cross his mind much.

Am I really of the opinion stated in the quote? Perhaps not.

[professorpan]

I just love it how Pan says "Its just your perception",
when it could just as well be his perception that is subjective and faulted.

But of course YOUR perception, being far superior than mine, could not be subjective and faulted because . . . well . . .

[Penguin]

Did you not notice I posted a long quote that was in partial agreement, and in partial disagreement with my views?

No you didnt, of course.
And I said several times that its just my twisted opinion.
Like youd notice that either.

You just have a gift of bringing the worst out of me
I guess its a good thing too...

[LilyPatToo]

Finally got to see that first episode of Dollhouse. And while I agree with some of the criticisms here, I do feel a bit more positive about the show's likelihood of becoming more engaging as more episodes are aired. I'll always yearn to see what Joss Whedon's own vision of the story was, though, if only Fox hadn't interfered.

There's a long interview posted here where many reporters questioned him about the show and I found it enlightening. But perhaps my own personal history and my enduring love for Buffy and Firefly are what sustain my hopes for Dollhouse's success. Not sure I can separate myself from a passionate desire to have more people exposed to information about mind control programing and sexual trafficking.

I just wish that the concepts didn't always have to be wrapped up in high-tech sci-fi window dressing (referring back to the late My Own Worst Enemy). Knowledge of how to program a mind (especially a young, traumatized mind) has probably existed for thousands of years, albeit within secretive groups. And there's probably been human sexual trafficking as long as there have been patriarchal human societies.

After reading the interview linked to above, I'm pretty sure that Whedon knows more than a little about the covert mind control programs and has read some survivor bios. He uses the terms "handler" and "programmer" correctly and makes a brief reference to "the most dangerous game" (talked about by Cathy O'Brien) as the plot of a future show. Has anyone here ever heard this "sport" discussed in a non-mind-controlled-slave context?

So while it's possible to argue that Whedon is "part of the system" and therefore "part of the problem" it's also true that millions of viewers who've never heard of the historical programs before will obtain at least a superficial knowledge of the concept and some of the terms. The show will never be as tawdry as the reality of sexual slavery, but I doubt if most people are anywhere near ready to discover how many ordinary little American girls and boys have been sold into it since the 50's. If this show's sci-fi-ed version of that ugly reality does nothing else, it might prepare minds to learn about the real thing.

Just my current thoughts--I hope the show continues to be discussed here, since it's one of the few places online where a significant proportion of posters and lurkers are at least somewhat aware of MKULTRA history.

LilyPat

[Wombaticus Rex]

and makes a brief reference to "the most dangerous game" (talked about by Cathy O'Brien) as the plot of a future show. Has anyone here ever heard this "sport" discussed in a non-mind-controlled-slave context?

It was originally a 1932 film:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0023238/

"A cabin cruiser is shipwrecked off the coast of a remote island, and its three passengers manage to reach the island safely. The island is owned by a strange and enigmatic count who invites them to stay. But he has an underlying motive for his apparent generosity: Count Zaroff enjoys hunting--and he only hunts the most dangerous game: humans!"

[marmot]

The 1932 Film: The Most Dangerous Game was an adaption of a 1924 short story of the same name by Richard Connell.

I remember reading it as a child.

[Penguin]

LilyPatToo:
Still didnt watch it, plan to...
But I think I agree on Firefly and its treatment of MC - I liked that show a lot and I still have it on DVD, and occasionally watch it again. In that series I liked the anti-authority thematics as well (and the theme song!), and the characters....It was one of the few new scifi series in a while I really enjoyed watching.

[LilyPatToo]

Thank you--I'd never heard of either. It's not difficult to imagine someone like Big Dick Cheney hunting a naked, unarmed fugitive through the woods, is it? As with a lot of O'Brien's memories, proof of their factual truth will probably always prove to be elusive. But some are definitely more easily believable than others and for me this is one of them.

It'll be interesting to see what Whedon does with the concept. While I can easily see the sort of sociopaths who run mind control programs renting out their human guinea pigs for vicious, bloodthirsty "fun and games" like that, it seems a bit reckless to me. Why endanger an expensive product? Unless of course either (a) the slave happens to be reaching their shelf-life expiration date or (b) the fee paid by the hunter covers the loss incurred by the program.

LilyPat

[Hugh Manatee Wins]

......
I just wish that the concepts didn't always have to be wrapped up in high-tech sci-fi window dressing...

This is part of the psyops of desensitization, inoculation, etc.

This is how the topic is made safe for the audience, with production sugar and extreme displacement from reality precisely to prevent outrage and horror at the government, an emotional imprint hard to overcome later.

Knowledge of how to program a mind (especially a young, traumatized mind) has probably existed for thousands of years, albeit within secretive groups.

Secretive groups like USG social engineers and CIA-Hollywood who know how to handle ignorant young minds who might learn about reality and stay thereby becoming antagonistic to authority.

After reading the interview linked to above, I'm pretty sure that Whedon knows more than a little about the covert mind control programs and has read some survivor bios. He uses the terms "handler" and "programmer" correctly

He says in that interview EXACTLY what I'm trying to tell y'all about what media spooks do with PARASOCIAL INTERACTION, SUBLIMINAL PRIMING, INOCULATION, DESENSITIZATION, JUSTIFICATION ON dangerous topics that damns military-intelligence culture and holds huge learning potential-

Part of the mandate of the show is to make people nervous. It’s to make them identify with people they don’t like and get into situations that they don’t approve of, and also look at some of the heroic side of things and wonder if maybe they were wrong about what motivated those as well.

So we’re out to make people uncomfortable, but not maybe so much our bosses.

"...the HEROIC side of things?" What a perp. He's a Them. All the way.

and makes a brief reference to "the most dangerous game" (talked about by Cathy O'Brien) as the plot of a future show.

Hate to tell you that Cathy O'Brien is shoveling some brown stuff, maybe programmed into her to doubly victimize her and provide more cloak for the Candy Jones story and a CIA project to discredit a foreign leader...but brown stuff none the less.

So while it's possible to argue that Whedon is "part of the system" and therefore "part of the problem" it's also true that millions of viewers who've never heard of the historical programs before will obtain at least a superficial knowledge of the concept and some of the terms.

That's how spooks get there first to pre-bias brains with worse than superficial versions of keywords. These early safe emotional associations are a very valuable counterpropaganda strategy used for decades.

The show will never be as tawdry as the reality of sexual slavery, but I doubt if most people are anywhere near ready to discover how many ordinary little American girls and boys have been sold into it since the 50's.

Exactly. Reality would MEAN something significant.

If this show's sci-fi-ed version of that ugly reality does nothing else, it might prepare minds to learn about the real thing.

BUT first by desensitizing minds to the ugly reality and having safe entertainment images and and "heroic" justificiations evoked to temper more morally appropriate outrage at the reality.

Just my current thoughts--I hope the show continues to be discussed here, since it's one of the few places online where a significant proportion of posters and lurkers are at least somewhat aware of MKULTRA history.

LilyPat

Please keep the topic alive with reality.
The CIA decoy factory is trying to stay ahead of the learning curve with safe entertaining versions of things.

Even confusing programming of one individual with mass propaganda is at play here. The microcosm is a good learning template for the macrocosm version but can serve as "extreme science fiction singularity" to prevent learning of the bigger picture.

[LilyPatToo]

Just saw your post, Penguin. Firefly and Serenity are flat-out amazing, aren't they? I find solace for the series' cancellation in the fact that Whedon began the movie with an unambiguously MC lab scene and that Dollhouse is yet again shoving the issue in front of the public. What good it will do I don't know, but I figure that information is valuable, even if it's incomplete. He definitely knows something about the programs and perhaps he's just pushing the envelope as much as he can and still get shows about this subject on the air at all.

LilyPat

[marmot]

Why endanger an expensive product? Unless of course either (a) the slave happens to be reaching their shelf-life expiration date or (b) the fee paid by the hunter covers the loss incurred by the program.

Actually, if I'm remembering my reading of O'Brien's experience with Cheney's Most Dangerous Game the underlying purpose of the trauma was for programming and control.

Imo, if she was due to expire they would have made the big money with her in a snuff film.

[OP ED]

The 1932 Film: The Most Dangerous Game was an adaption of a 1924 short story of the same name by Richard Connell.

I remember reading it as a child.

we read it in junior high school.

But maybe you should entertain the idea that your reaction is *yours* because of who you are, and not indicative of some diabolical plot by the writers.

Not diabolical, but everyday. Its also a product of your culture.
Which alone makes it bad, Im sorry to say. You really do think of your American culture too highly. That might be the basic fault here.

Fanboi....Sheesh.

Maybe you should also look at why you are who you are.

continentalist bigotry.

trendy.

No.

A mirror.

if you say so. "American culture", whatever that is, seems to be an easy target. But it doesn't really mean anything. Culture nowadays, is mass produced. American Publishers, for example, will produce more GOOD books this week than you'll read in your lifetime.

(lots of bad books too, but the good books and the bad books are both equally the same cultural products, which is the point)

I just love it how Pan says "Its just your perception",
when it could just as well be his perception that is subjective and faulted.
That doesnt seem to cross his mind much.

Am I really of the opinion stated in the quote? Perhaps not.

i'd suggest that it might be difficult to engage in fruitful discussions if you're not going to post your actual opinion. yknow?

not that i would defend pan. he can do that hisself.

honestly, i also don't really care for any television shows, and am therefore not particularly interested in the subjects in discussion here. so perhaps i should stay out of it.

[Penguin]

Thats true. I was pissed at the time, and wanted to provoke a reaction, hopefully an equally pissed one. It all started with this:

Wow, you mean a piece of popular entertainment might touch on actual events in the real world?!? Are you frakkin' kidding me?!?
Quote:
And the McCain - Palin lookalikes, who are mirrored 1:1 even in the BSG characters life stories!

OMFG! PSYOPPIEST EVAR!
... or fanboyish nonsense. Don't like it? Don't watch it.

Hardly an intelligent answer, when I hadnt provoked him personally. Thats what I dislike in him. I tend to go ballistic from this kind of stuff. He does it to others too, without provoking. (The rest of that answer was good stuff, thou!)

Happy? I am now. Sorry for wasting more thread space.

[beeline]

Sorry for wasting more thread space.

Penguin, you never waste thread space.

And Lilypat:

Perhaps I came off too harsh. I'm going to give Dollhouse several more chances. I've been a fan of Wheadon since Buffy, and I quite liked Firefly. So I'm willing to invest the next few Friday nights on Dollhouse. I guess my main problem with Dollhouse pilot episode was the stilted dialouge (Echo pointing at the lab table and saying, "She hurts," came off horrible). But that mainly happened when Echo was not 'in character,' so I'm thinking now, well, maybe she's supposed to sound stupid--being an empty vessel and all. We'll see.