MC and delusions (loads of TRIGGERS)

[LilyPatToo]

What American Dream said. And anyone who's actually bothered to read this thread is aware of my extreme unease about using the term "wavie" since I said so early on. It's just such a pain to type out the alternatives, all of which are long, clunky phrases. And I'm not entirely comfortable with the "TI" designation which they use for themselves, since it means either "targeted individual" or "tortured individual" and after years of interacting with them, I don't actually feel that those are accurate terms in most cases.

And as for schizophrenics being unable to congregate, that's probably true of people afflicted with a severe form of the disorder, but it's absolutely not true of any of the people I've known who had the diagnosis. Their impairment made socialization with non-schizophrenics difficult to impossible, but give them a room full of people who could enthusiastically confirm and reinforce their particular delusion of persecution and you would not believe the level of bonding that takes place

This thread compares the experiences of people with the characteristics of victims of trauma-based mind control with those of people who believe they're being remotely tortured. Many of us who can identify with the kind of hands-on medical and psychiatric experimentation are very concerned at the way we're lumped into the same category and then dismissed by many people as being delusional. Because we're not.

As lightningBugout said:

...there is something in your post that seems to characterize MC survivors trying to distinguish their collective experience from the electronic harassment set that makes it sound as though "we" are also "mentally ill" and scapegoating another group. That was not in what I wrote.

I'd be careful with talking about DID and "mental illness." It's more complicated than that. Dissociation is a normal, healthy coping mechanism that, in and of itself, does not signify "illness" at all. It's simply an adaptation that usually outwears it's usefulness and often begins to cause problems in adult life. A great deal of suffering and some oddly formed emotional issues yes, but I would characterize dissociative disorders as more similar to maladaptive development than illness.

The fact that DID is so universally misunderstood--even on a conspiracy board--is due to the power of those original MKULTRA spychiatrists to control any sort of discussion of the disorder they were deliberately creating and exploiting. The old monsters have been dying off for a while now and DID is finally coming out from under the cloud of disinfo that was generated by them, but it's obvious just from reading recent posts here that the disorder is not in the clear yet.

To work to differentiate oneself from people suffering from delusional disorders is not intended to denigrate their suffering at all. And no one in this thread has done so. What we're trying to focus upon are ways to figure out what may have happened to us and to find terms to use to describe that suite of experiences and psychiatric diagnoses accurately. Anyone who insists upon gathering all of us into one group is in effect doing the work of the covert groups whose primary focus is upon invalidating anyone who survived a trauma-based mind control program.

If they can do that well enough, none of them need fear prison terms for their human rights abuses. And since most of us have screen memory programming specifically designed to invalidate ourselves, we're incredibly easy to discredit publicly. Like American Dream, I've known and liked people who self-identify as "TI's" but been unable to see evidence that e-harrassment was actually occurring--and we're talking years here. But their suffering was very real and the validation they were receiving from the online communities to which they belonged was profoundly comforting to them. I would never dream of depriving them of that comfort. But I can't sit back and allow my own history to be conflated with theirs any longer.

LilyPat

[DeltaDawn]

While trying to pull my thoughts together, LBO & LP2 came in and stated very well what was going through my head. It's a sad situation that all these disorders such as anti-social, MPD, DID, even pychopathic, are grouped under sociopathy, with no difference, IMO. For people who are recovering it's especially frustrating, I don't have MPD I realize there are different 'parts' to me. DID??? I'm not even liking that much nowadays because of kinda getting to know these other strengths in myself and not disassociating from them as much but even able to 'call' on their virtues.

Someone on here, wish I could recall at this particular moment, sorry, mentioned that electronic surveillance might be connected in a way to keep MC victims under thumb....definitely paraphrasing here. This is what I feel it's all about and there are times I'll awaken in the morning thinking, no not hearing voices, but thinking I've been zapped! The day will inevitably bring about the physical/medical condition I've had since childhood. The gangstalking, I think, is a stress/trigger form of keeping me in constant fear of 'something' I don't quite know yet. Since stress brings about the medical condition there I am again, remembering/thinking it's because I've been telling things....

I agree with LP2 in that when we are validated by others experiencing the same things we have or vague memories of those things, it makes it easier to cope, figure out, and come up with things that actually work, or things we waste time with. I believe in conspiracy theories to a certain point, but think you must pay attention when people all over the world, who don't know one another, aren't trying to gain anything, and have no reason to lie state the same stories, events, beliefs, and determination to find out what they are believing in.

hmmmm 82, you might have something there, memories of gurneys, nurses, needles.....I'm afraid still to dwell on. But I have thought about something you mentioned. When I was 8, again when I was 11, once again at 16, then again when joining the military at 18 I was given IQ tests. When in high school I went to some college classes and only started wondering about all this when discovering, children nor straight military volunteers are IQ tested. And when they are, it's not normally in their homes as the first three times were with me. Also how coincidental? that myself and others I've read about have OCD??? Definitely food for thought.

Sure glad to have found this site if only to have others to be 'crazy' with. Please know that's my way of joking around, you should know by my past posts I Do NOT think this subject is craziness. But I laugh at myself many times, just to keep myself 'real'. Also the military shrink I saw told me, that people who don't question their own sanity usually have more mental disorders than those who do. Trust me I recall that session many times every year. Just trying to say, I feel in good company here.

[barracuda]

lightningBugout, why have you edited your OP to remove the reference to DID as a DSM criteria?

[lightningBugout]

lightningBugout, why have you edited your OP to remove the reference to DID as a DSM criteria?

Please explain. I have no idea what you are referring to.

FWIW that comes off feeling a bit like an accusation btw.

ON EDIT. I did edit the OP last night, but only its title to add the trigger warning. The morning after I made a subsequent post on the thread, I realized I had said something personal that I was uncomfortable sharing and deleted that paragraph. I don't believe it made any reference to the DSM, however.

[barracuda]

Oh, my mistake then.

Finally, there is something in your post that seems to characterize MC survivors trying to distinguish their collective experience from the electronic harassment set that makes it sound as though "we" are also "mentally ill" and scapegoating another group. That was not in what I wrote.

I'd be careful with talking about DID and "mental illness." It's more complicated than that. Dissociation is a normal, healthy coping mechanism that, in and of itself, does not signify "illness" at all. It's simply an adaptation that usually outwears it's usefulness and often begins to cause problems in adult life. A great deal of suffering and some oddly formed emotional issues yes, but I would characterize dissociative disorders as more similar to maladaptive development than illness.

I'm unclear here. My understanding was that Dissociative Identity Disorder was just that - a disorder. I can't see how it could be described as "healthy" in any regard. It is a response to childhood trama, somewhat similar to the effects of PTSD, isn't it? I mean, left untreated, the outcome for sufferers of DID is not generally good.

I've known and liked people who self-identify as "TI's" but been unable to see evidence that e-harrassment was actually occurring--and we're talking years here. But their suffering was very real and the validation they were receiving from the online communities to which they belonged was profoundly comforting to them. I would never dream of depriving them of that comfort. But I can't sit back and allow my own history to be conflated with theirs any longer.

This thread has begun to read like the subtle institution of a caste system in which the reports from certain mind control survivors are given significantly less credence than those of others, and in which the trama-based MC survivors are the brahmans. It seems as if the criterion is physical proximity to the MK Ultra program, and the informal diagnosis of these others (TI) is, amongst some of you, schizophrenia or delusional psychosis. (The untreated schizophrenics I have known have been largely incapacitated, but I suppose there is a spectrum of the disorder.)

The end road of this caste system could be the model of, the more famous the abuser, the more status to the survivor, in the mold of Brice Taylor/Cathy O'Brian "presidential models", which is why I brought them up in the context of delusion. Concerning O'Brian in particular I found it difficult to step back from her report and look at it objectively without wondering how much of Trance Formation is delusion/cover story/fantasy, or what.

Please don't get too offended or crabby, folks, I'm just telling you what I am sensing.

I vaguely remember the suggestion offered to me that I shouldn't be judgemental as regards the reports of MC survivors, and that to assess these reports would be a mistake. Has this outlook changed with the introduction of victims of electronic harrassment and gangstalking?

I believe in conspiracy theories to a certain point, but think you must pay attention when people all over the world, who don't know one another, aren't trying to gain anything, and have no reason to lie state the same stories, events, beliefs, and determination to find out what they are believing in.

It seems to me that your belief, DeltaDawn, is equally applicable to the electronic harrassment/gangstalking victims as well, who make remarkably similar reports with, as far as I can tell, no hope of personal gain.

By the way DeltaDawn, you might be able to answer a question which has plagued me for years: what is that flower you have on?

[lightningBugout]

Please don't get too offended or crabby, folks, I'm just telling you what I am sensing.

I'm staying out of this one. I hope others have the time and energy to give your post the response it demands. Best, LBO

[Cordelia]

I’ve hesitated to weigh in on the debate over what constitutes delusions because of ‘organic’ mental illness vs. ‘reality’ after subjection to intentional and calculated mind control techniques, including electronic harrassment, because, to me, it’s such a complex quagmire (where one ends and another begins) and minefield (for arguments) of overlapping life experiences, philosophies, prejudices, propaganda, personal belief systems……

I confess that I don’t like labeling people’s ‘mental illnesses’ through the use of standardized DSM criteria and I especially don’t trust the field of psychiatry. We’re all mentally ill, we’re all learning disabled, we’re all physically impaired, we’re all physically and emotionally addicted, to some degree, because we’re all human and most of these human handicaps fall somewhere along a vast spectrum, impacted by many variables, including genetics and environment (which includes purposeful mind control techniques).

Hand-in-hand with the psychiatric industry is the pharmacology industry. We really don’t know what the ingredients and the long term affects are of these strong psychotropic cocktails and how they impact or even re-wire the brain. And, if there is a calculated effort to do just that, to re-wire, in an effort to control a person’s behavior, than isn’t the mentally ill patient also a potential victim of mind control?

Throughout my life, I’ve mostly believed what people tell me about themselves and for this, because I’ve partnered with more than one highly psychopathic individual, I’ve paid dearly. So I’ve learned to be a bit less gullible and sympathetic to the hard luck stories I hear. Some people are compulsive liars and some are manipulative con artists.

But, I can’t say that, if someone tells of fantastic and hard to believe life experiences, I’m going to disbelieve them because they may be schizophrenic, paranoid, Bi-polar or suffering from another mental illness. If a person believes their own story to be true, and they’re living within their ‘truth’ at any particular moment, who am I to judge the validity of their reality?

[sw]

Hi Barracuda,

I thought I'd tackle part of your question from my perspective on the healthy side of DID.

If I had not split and become DID, I think I would have been too emotionally crushed to be able to go to school.

It also helped me survive (so not healthy but pure survival) because my father would rage if I acted hurt. The parts enabled me to live another day because the raped part would go inside and another part would go to breakfast.

I see it as a healthy response to hell which enabled me to cope until I was out and able to fall apart, heal and then emerge as just me.

I have not experienced a lot of what others describe in this thread.

I do mourn the loss of some of my brain or mind...that is gone. Medications I took allowed me to take on my past gradually. My sleep was disturbed pretty bad. I rarely slept well. The sleep meds allowed me to live but they damaged my brain in the process. I used to be able to write well and think pretty well. I was sharp. I was on my game.

Now, I am happy I survived but I am sad as I struggle to get the words out. 17 years of hard core drugs screwed my mind so that I no longer can pull the right words from space. I know what I once was and I see myself today. Yes, I survived...but there was a cost.

I used to write when I was in college. It was good. Now, all of that is gone.

[Maddy]

Hey Barracuda! I'll bite!

My therapist continually reminds me about how being DID is a healthy, sane response to an insane situation. Generally those who use DID for a survival mechanism are the same people who are highly creative, highly intelligent (above avg. IQs) and highly adaptable. All very positive qualities. She tells me that if I hadn't used DID, that those who don't develop it generally become psychotic under the same life-threatening circumstances. It destroys them utterly. Also, as sw said, the benefits of DID helps one to get by despite what is happening, which is actually more than what can happen with PTSD, which can really stop a person in their tracks from the symptoms. So while DID/MPD is definitely a "disorder", its at least a disorder with benefits.

Cheers!

[Project Willow]

Oh, my mistake then.

I'm unclear here. My understanding was that Dissociative Identity Disorder was just that - a disorder. I can't see how it could be described as "healthy" in any regard. It is a response to childhood trama, somewhat similar to the effects of PTSD, isn't it? I mean, left untreated, the outcome for sufferers of DID is not generally good.

There is a great deal of anti-psychiatry labeling sentiment within the survivor community, and it originates from the same source, the desire to lessen stigma. Some have even moved for the condition to be labeled a "gift" because without it, victims would be driven to incapacity or death by that level of abuse. I've actually seen it happen, subjects reduced to vegetative states because their ability to dissociate was not accurately assessed. Would you like to see that, barracuda? Your tax money paid for it. If it feels like I'm being unfairly tough, I'm just trying to remind you of the general circumstances that originated the discussion.

At the same time, there is the need for the public and the medical establishment to recognize the existence of DID symptoms, because at this point the condition should be considered quasi-weaponized and subject to possible re-classification attempts.

This thread has begun to read like the subtle institution of a caste system in which the reports from certain mind control survivors are given significantly less credence than those of others, and in which the trama-based MC survivors are the brahmans. It seems as if the criterion is physical proximity to the MK Ultra program, and the informal diagnosis of these others (TI) is, amongst some of you, schizophrenia or delusional psychosis. (The untreated schizophrenics I have known have been largely incapacitated, but I suppose there is a spectrum of the disorder.)

The end road of this caste system could be the model of, the more famous the abuser, the more status to the survivor, in the mold of Brice Taylor/Cathy O'Brian "presidential models", which is why I brought them up in the context of delusion. Concerning O'Brian in particular I found it difficult to step back from her report and look at it objectively without wondering how much of Trance Formation is delusion/cover story/fantasy, or what.

Please don't get too offended or crabby, folks, I'm just telling you what I am sensing.

I vaguely remember the suggestion offered to me that I shouldn't be judgemental as regards the reports of MC survivors, and that to assess these reports would be a mistake. Has this outlook changed with the introduction of victims of electronic harrassment and gangstalking?

It's clever to ask people not to be offended when you're being offensive. You are way off, not to mention ascribing hollow and grandiose motives to people who are simply trying to make sense of the oddities of their world and their lives. The suggestion was to not be judgmental of individual reports directly to the person doing the reporting, to people you encounter and have exchanges with here on the board. As for the rest, I'll let the others clarify their stances.

[lightningBugout]

I guess I just always wonder where you're coming from 'Cuda.

Cuz you cut and pasted some DSM stuff about DID yet you don't seem to have much of a handle on dissociation. And when you erroneously thought I'd removed some ref to the DSM, what were you imagining on my part? That I was trying to limit the flow of information to forward some or another agenda? Are you aware that the basic debate around the psychiatric category called DID is really just about whether or not is is superfluous? That is, some pychiatrists (like the one on NPR's science friday last week - I posted it but it got taken over by Manatee bullshit) believe that there is no need to have the DID diagnosis because its symptoms are just a variant of PTSD. Its more complicated (and probably more shady) but that's probably the gist of the debate.

I don't really know shit about people who claim electronic harassment, and I have said so twice upthread. I did point out that, in my limited understanding, delusions of external control and manipulation are often associated with paranoid schizophrenia. I don't know what that means, whatsoever.

Your post brings to mind that when I voiced my own feeling that Diana N_______'s writing seemed delusional (aliens, android-insects, mind uploading, the earth having been teleported to a different dimension, her being at the center of a rapidly unfolding biblical prophecy), you took it as an opportunity to accuse me of personal exceptionalism - that is, that it was hypocritical of me to suggest her reportage was nutters and thus suggest she was possibly mentally ill.

Part of what I was trying to get at is a significant difference between people who experienced psychiatric conditioning that gets called "mind control" really for historic reasons vs. people who believe their mind is being "controlled." I don't think the latter at all and I don't think most people who identify as MK survivors (and I do not) do either. It's quite a different animal to say - my personality / self, etc. got formed to have a series of very powerful associations and dissociations that bring out different parts of myself and associated behaviors than than to say an entity "out there" is literally but invisibly controlling your mind.

I don't think of myself as "mentally ill" in any regard. More so that I have a lot of growing up to do, more or less. Without getting too personal, well, when you spend alot of your life checking out for extended periods of time, isolating and avoiding things, it leaves you with scads of sorting out to do. Re-learning how to trust people, separating out your own transference from what's really going down, etc.

The "brahmin" comment is really so sort of offensive as well as, IMHO, off-the-money. But whatever, I assume you wanted to provoke something with it.

You probably should know though, since you don't seem to have noticed, that Cathy O'brien and Brice Taylor are generally treated here with almost total skepticism. Disinfo, factitious, whatever. But certainly nothing resembling reverence.

I just don't get it. As you know I really like you, alot. And I don't think you're a cretin or anything. But this post of yours felt so out-of-character. A bunch of people in this thread have been having a productive conversation and what you've just introduced supports this incredibly fucked up idea that self-identified "survivors" are actually enjoying the ride and getting some sort of pleasure, gain or other benefit from sharing their experience. That SUCKS. Speaking only for myself I can say that speaking even remotely freely about what I believe happened to me is a drain. I'd much rather be shooting pool.

SW said it quite nicely. Dissociation is a very effective coping mechanism. Once removed from danger, however, it persists. Many people who are diagnosed as DID are simply going through an extended period of decompensation as the internal structures (formally imposed or more organic) they used to cope during extended trauma break down.

[Cordelia]

I just don't get it. As you know I really like you, alot. And I don't think you're a cretin or anything. But this post of yours felt so out-of-character.

Maybe he was obsessing over songs from the '70's, had too much to drink and will regret it in the morning.

[barracuda]

Wait, what songs from the seventies? Link?

[lightningBugout]

You're lying so low in the weeds
I bet you're gonna ambush me
You'd have me down, down, down, down on my knees
Now wouldn't you, barracuda?

OH!

[barracuda]

It's clever to ask people not to be offended when you're being offensive.

Not really, but thanks for the compliment. I've learned the hard way that just about any comment or question I ask on these threads is seen as offensive, so I've basically decided to just give up and give in and go ahead and say what's honestly on my mind. I knew there would be some antipathy on this one, but I bit down hard and posted it anyway.

You are way off, not to mention ascribing hollow and grandiose motives to people who are simply trying to make sense of the oddities of their world and their lives.

Oh, c'mon Willow - there's certainly been discussion here before on the phenomenon of the MC Superstars like Taylor and O'Brian - hanging with Rosanne and such. (LBO, yes, I've noticed that they are viewed skeptically here, but in the wider context of the public face of MC survivors, less so.) It's no big leap to question the quasi-social hierarchy within the culture of survivorship on this board vis-avis the other claimants to the label of the "mind controlled". Or to ask whether such a hierarchy might not be based upon degrees of believability or types mental illness. These things are routinely stigmatised everywhere, as you note; when I see it here, I shouldn't question it? Besides, I wasn't really referencing you - you had made a very equitable and balanced statement in response to my question upthread which I understood and agreed with entirely.

The suggestion was to not be judgmental of individual reports directly to the person doing the reporting, to people you encounter and have exchanges with here on the board.

Fair enough, but I assume that suggestion doesn't extend to excusing the making of generalised dismissive comments regarding the legitimacy of trama-based MC survivor reports, such as false memory arguments and such. Actually, I don't really have to assume that; it's been made very clear on these threads time and again. So I wouldn't say the issue is quite so cut and dried as boiling down to only the realm of interpersonal confrontations. The theory sounds good, but in practise, the strictures are a lot less narrowly defined. And I feel relatively certain that individuals under the duress of what they consider electronic harassment or gangstalking would be equally offended to hear their plight ghettoized as delusional, especially by persons with whom they might envison a political solidarity based on commonalities of possible goals.

There is a great deal of anti-psychiatry labeling sentiment within the survivor community, and it originates from the same source, the desire to lessen stigma. Some have even moved for the condition to be labeled a "gift" because without it, victims would be driven to incapacity or death by that level of abuse. I've actually seen it happen, subjects reduced to vegetative states because their ability to dissociate was not accurately assessed. Would you like to see that, barracuda? Your tax money paid for it. If it feels like I'm being unfairly tough, I'm just trying to remind you of the general circumstances that originated the discussion.

I don't find you to be overly tough, Willow - I think you're just tough enough. It is, though, my understanding that DID occurs partly because a person has a certain aptitude for it within the course of the realisation of the trauma; that not all persons, or personality types, or temperaments (or whatever you wanna call it) dissociate under the stress of trauma. Some persons are more resiliant than others, or internalize the experience in different manner. And yes, as you suggest, some persons are destroyed by it. And no, my purpose or goal is not to wish that upon anyone. As implyed by Maddy and sw, the disorder has a usefulness to them, but I take it as an understanding of a usefulness of last resort within the context of unspeakable circumstances.

Cuz you cut and pasted some DSM stuff about DID yet you don't seem to have much of a handle on dissociation.

I do not, but you must admit, it is a complex subject with a variety of opinions and interpretations.

And when you erroneously thought I'd removed some ref to the DSM, what were you imagining on my part? That I was trying to limit the flow of information to forward some or another agenda?

Not really, I just couldn't remember what was different about the post and thought you had mentioned there was some concern about DID being possibly removed from the DSM, partly due, possibly, to efforts such as the article quoted in the OP.

Are you aware that the basic debate around the psychiatric category called DID is really just about whether or not is is superfluous? That is, some pychiatrists believe that there is no need to have the DID diagnosis because its symptoms are just a variant of PTSD.

Yes, my reading (which isn't really all that deep) has gotten me that far, and my grasp of some of the sides of the debate is partly why I am reading this thread and asking questions. Really, I don't actually sit around rubbing my hands together while I figure out the next way I can annoy you all. On the contrary, I find it fascinating, and simply can't resist the temptation to butt in.

OH!

No relation. When I obsess about 70's music, Cordelia, I must admit it is more along these lines.