IEA Projections and Peak Oil Politics

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Postby Nordic » Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:54 pm

MacCruiskeen wrote:
JackRiddler wrote:Plastics.

Fertilizers.

Pesticides.

Pharmaceuticals.

Asphalt. Tar. Lubricants. Wax. Fibers. Polyesters. Sprays. WD-40.


Yes Jack, I understand all that. ("Eating Fossil Fuels", etc.) But what happened to EROEI?



Well, I'm assuming that those things are sold in smaller quantities, thus at a higher price per unit, in order for them to be profitable.

At some point those things are necessities that people will pay a higher price for.

I mean, motor oil is relatively expensive, is it not, compared to a tank full of gasoline?
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Postby Hugo Farnsworth » Tue Nov 10, 2009 10:53 pm

That was poor wording on my part, i should have said "primarily" instead of "only" where stating what oil, as a commodity, would eventually be in the future.

Yes, despite negative net energy, it will probably be used in exotic energy applications (rocketry?), but nearly all production will be for plastic, fertilizer, pesticides, pharma, etc.

And that's an optimistic view. It would imply that we have come up with an alternative energy source to transport and transform oil and gas into these products and to maintain a society wherein these things would have value. That's the rub--what many are debating now is whether the landing into this new world will be soft or hard.

Long ago, i remember reading a sci-fi book where someone referred to a personal item as being made of "genuine plastic". :lol:

I tend to agree with the abiogenic theory as the source of hydrocarbons. But it must collect into reservoirs whose volume is large enough to be meaningful as a source. It really doesn't matter what theory is correct, biogenic or abiogenic. If you shut in an oilfield for anywhere from several hundred to a few thousands years, the field will replenish, so in a perverse sort of way, oil is renewable.

If Gold is right, and there is a deep biosphere that literally lives off hydrocarbons, then the earth is awash in oil and gas. But only a tiny fraction of it is available for our use at the rate we consume it, and we have gone through (perhaps) more than half what is easily procured.

The deepwater finds in the Gulf of Mexico, the coast of Africa and South America and elsewhere are, I'm afraid, the end of the road. These are at the edge of the continental shelf, the slope into the ocean, and there is no more after that. What you find in these "young" formations is usually gas, with small amounts of oil. And as previously mentioned, the EROEI for these are slim, not to mention the huge fiscal investment these undertakings represent. As the locations become more remote and exotic, the EROEI just becomes more slim.

I highly recommend the Oil Drum, btw.
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Postby justdrew » Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:06 pm

Hugo Farnsworth wrote:Long ago, i remember reading a sci-fi book where someone referred to a personal item as being made of "genuine plastic". :lol:


that does ring a bell...

A Canticle for Leibowitz? Or the must read:
Always Coming Home by Ursula K. Le Guin maybe?

This isn't it but a book worth reading about US collapse:
Distraction by Bruce Sterling
http://www.infinityplus.co.uk/nonfiction/distract.htm
It's set in 2040, but it's seeming more like 2020 at best lately.
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Postby SonicG » Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:49 am

Hugo Farnsworth wrote:
The deepwater finds in the Gulf of Mexico, the coast of Africa and South America and elsewhere are, I'm afraid, the end of the road. These are at the edge of the continental shelf, the slope into the ocean, and there is no more after that. What you find in these "young" formations is usually gas, with small amounts of oil. And as previously mentioned, the EROEI for these are slim, not to mention the huge fiscal investment these undertakings represent. As the locations become more remote and exotic, the EROEI just becomes more slim.

I highly recommend the Oil Drum, btw.


Thanks for that. I would assume these topics are common knowledge among oil professionals so I would think more would be pushing for spreading the idea that the stuff is running thin and we better get moving towards an alternative lifestyle- pronto. I guess if some of these investment bankers diverted their massive bonuses towards ramping up the technology but still there is time lag between R&D and deployment obviously.

>sigh<

I have to admit to admit that it is something of a personal bugaboo. I have spent the vast majority of my life using public transportation, my feet and bicycles; now only to be told, "um, yeah, sorry about that, I guess we ate the rest of your life for you already. Sorries...."
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Postby MacCruiskeen » Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:31 am

Hugo, thanks for clarifying that. Didn't mean to be pedantic, just really wasn't sure what you meant. Hope you'll post more.
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Postby JackRiddler » Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:17 pm

Hugo, your bits are most welcome & smart.

I've never understood the abiotic argument against peak oil, though I read a few articles from those arguing it, most recently news items from Sweden. For the sake of argument, let's grant that oil is abiotic, and not dependent on fossils from the Carboniferous era. Given that the fields in use really do deplete within mere years and decades, is anyone arguing that the process of formation (or seepage from the mantle) can replenish them at a rate even remotely meaningful to our present civilization? What's the fastest estimate anyone ever posited? (What would be the difference, even if Ghawar will be full of oil again in just 1000 years?) Has anyone hypothesized ways to speed up the process, or to reach the theoretical mantle reserves, at a useful EROEI or timeframe? If not, what are they trying to say and why would they attack peak oil theory on the basis of their claims of abiotic origins? Without a feasible or at the moment even conceivable plan to take advantage, it seems academic.

(Should we set off a bunch of nukes on top of a fault line, in the hope of reaching the mantle? Who'd be the lucky region?)
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Postby Hugo Farnsworth » Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:22 pm

One of the most replenished fields is the Eugene Island field block 352 (unsure of the exact number) in the Gulf of Mexico near Louisiana. It became a controversy in the abiotic vs biotic argument.

I will venture to say that some fields will replenish fairly fast, while others, long cutoff from their supply line in the deep mantle will not replenish at all or very slowly. In the case of the fields in south Louisiana, it appears to be a multi-stage process. If the origin is abiotic, it upwells from the mantle, through the Louanne salt, and into the Wilcox (in the biotic camp, the Wilcox is considered the generator). From the Wilcox it upwells into the various producing formations throughout southern Louisiana extending into fields in the Gulf of Mexico. In central and northern Louisiana, the Wilcox is still productive with pumping and secondary recovery techniques.

Near my hometown in Louisiana is a small oil and gas field that should have played out decades ago (it was developed during WW2), but is still producing with pressure (no pumps). The producing formation is called the Cib Haz (short for cibicides hazzardi) at a depth of around 8500 ft. Thirty miles due south in Lake Arthur, the same formation is nearly 19000 ft deep and is so highly pressured that it cannot be dealt with current drilling technology. There is at present no drilling fluid dense enough to contain it. Instead, formations above it are produced. Conventional geophysics and biotic petrogenesis cannot easily account for this pressure, but it is best explained by the deep abiotic theory. I believe this is one of the few places in the world where hydrocarbons are collecting directly above their sources in the deep mantle, and is directly charging sedimentary formations to absurd pressures.

In my talks with PBs consultants (production/automation engineers), the question as to whether we are running out of oil came up, of course. I said we are running out of time.

Has anyone hypothesized ways to speed up the process, or to reach the theoretical mantle reserves, at a useful EROEI or timeframe? If not, what are they trying to say and why would they attack peak oil theory on the basis of their claims of abiotic origins? Without a feasible or at the moment even conceivable plan to take advantage, it seems academic.


I do not get it either. My guess is that they do not understand the upwelling process and/or the technological limits of drilling technology.
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Postby stillrobertpaulsen » Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:27 pm

JackRiddler wrote:Hugo, your bits are most welcome & smart.

I've never understood the abiotic argument against peak oil, though I read a few articles from those arguing it, most recently news items from Sweden. For the sake of argument, let's grant that oil is abiotic, and not dependent on fossils from the Carboniferous era. Given that the fields in use really do deplete within mere years and decades, is anyone arguing that the process of formation (or seepage from the mantle) can replenish them at a rate even remotely meaningful to our present civilization? What's the fastest estimate anyone ever posited? (What would be the difference, even if Ghawar will be full of oil again in just 1000 years?) Has anyone hypothesized ways to speed up the process, or to reach the theoretical mantle reserves, at a useful EROEI or timeframe? If not, what are they trying to say and why would they attack peak oil theory on the basis of their claims of abiotic origins? Without a feasible or at the moment even conceivable plan to take advantage, it seems academic.

(Should we set off a bunch of nukes on top of a fault line, in the hope of reaching the mantle? Who'd be the lucky region?)


That's always been my take on the subject: abiotic oil is a red herring in the context of disputing Peak Oil. Or as one snarky internet poster said, "The abiotic vs. biotic theories of oil amount to us arguing, "Are we using up oil a million times faster than it's being created, or merely a thousand times faster?" IT DOESN'T MATTER."
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Postby stillrobertpaulsen » Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:50 pm

I just wanted to point out that Fatih Birol has commented on The Guardian's report. Sounds to me like a non-denial denial:


But the energy crisis may be even more critical than what the IEA is saying. According to a report in the Guardian on Tuesday, the agency, under pressure from the U.S., has in past reports deliberately underestimated just how fast the world is running out of oil. The newspaper quoted an unnamed senior IEA official as saying that the U.S. encouraged the agency to "underplay the rate of decline from existing oil fields while overplaying the chance of finding new reserves."

The official questioned the prediction in last year's World Economic Outlook that oil production could be raised from the current level of 83 million bbl. a day to 106 million bbl. a day, saying the estimate was higher than is feasible. This year's report lowers that prediction to 105 million bbl. a day. But critics of the IEA have long said the world has passed its peak in oil production and that such levels are unrealistic.

A chief economist for the IEA, Fatih Birol, disputed the Guardian's report. "I don't see any particular encouragement from the U.S. or any other of our governments," he told TIME on Tuesday. He said the accusations about the IEA's downplaying of the world's tightening oil supplies surprised him, since "we have said that oil production is declining in existing fields sharply," he said.



Read more: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/ ... z0WUBx6jOO

Seems to me like he didn't address the primary whistleblower charge: the peak is not in 10 years, we are at peak now and the IEA has not officially admitted this.
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Postby stillrobertpaulsen » Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:05 pm

And another from Richard Jones, deputy executive director of the IEA:

London, England (CNN) -- The International Energy Agency has rejected reported allegations from a whistleblower that world oil reserves have been exaggerated to avoid panic buying in the oil market.

A senior source within the IEA is reported to have told The Guardian newspaper that many within the agency believe the body's prediction for oil supplies "is much higher than can be justified."

In its annual outlook released on Tuesday, the IEA repeated its prediction that oil supplies would rise to 105 million barrels by 2030 under current government policy.

"We're the ones that are out there warning that the oil and gas is running out in the most authoritative manner. But we don't see it happening as quickly as some of the peak oil theorists," Richard Jones, deputy executive director of the IEA, told CNN.

"Generally, we're viewed as more pessimistic than we should be by the (oil) industry," he added.


http://edition.cnn.com/2009/BUSINESS/11 ... index.html
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Postby xsicbastardx » Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:38 pm

Hugo Farnsworth wrote:That was poor wording on my part, i should have said "primarily" instead of "only" where stating what oil, as a commodity, would eventually be in the future.

Yes, despite negative net energy, it will probably be used in exotic energy applications (rocketry?), but nearly all production will be for plastic, fertilizer, pesticides, pharma, etc.

And that's an optimistic view. It would imply that we have come up with an alternative energy source to transport and transform oil and gas into these products and to maintain a society wherein these things would have value. That's the rub--what many are debating now is whether the landing into this new world will be soft or hard.

Long ago, i remember reading a sci-fi book where someone referred to a personal item as being made of "genuine plastic". :lol:

I tend to agree with the abiogenic theory as the source of hydrocarbons. But it must collect into reservoirs whose volume is large enough to be meaningful as a source. It really doesn't matter what theory is correct, biogenic or abiogenic. If you shut in an oilfield for anywhere from several hundred to a few thousands years, the field will replenish, so in a perverse sort of way, oil is renewable.

If Gold is right, and there is a deep biosphere that literally lives off hydrocarbons, then the earth is awash in oil and gas. But only a tiny fraction of it is available for our use at the rate we consume it, and we have gone through (perhaps) more than half what is easily procured.

The deepwater finds in the Gulf of Mexico, the coast of Africa and South America and elsewhere are, I'm afraid, the end of the road. These are at the edge of the continental shelf, the slope into the ocean, and there is no more after that. What you find in these "young" formations is usually gas, with small amounts of oil. And as previously mentioned, the EROEI for these are slim, not to mention the huge fiscal investment these undertakings represent. As the locations become more remote and exotic, the EROEI just becomes more slim.

I highly recommend the Oil Drum, btw.



I read a few russian papers on the Abiogenic vs biogenic years ago back 03 or 04. I can't remember where I saw them but they talked about the Russians and deep core drilling and how they had certain ones that were pumping out outrageous amounts of crude and was one of the leading examples of the abiogenic theory.
Do you have any links to some other papers/essays/what not about how think the process is happening. By no means do I understand or even by all the way into Peak Oil however there seems to be something behind this resource and the power plays behind it....of course.....
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Postby wintler2 » Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:34 pm

Abiotic oil needn't be logically relevant to be politically relevant, confusion = inaction = business as usual. Same story with tobacco, asbestos, climate change, e.g. sunspots don't need to affect long term climate trends to be useful in delaying action on climate change. PO is actually bigger badder news than CC for industrialised countries, so there is a huge demand for denial figleaves. I predict sales of abiotic oil books will rise in coming years.
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Postby Hugo Farnsworth » Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:39 pm

I read a few russian papers on the Abiogenic vs biogenic years ago back 03 or 04. I can't remember where I saw them but they talked about the Russians and deep core drilling and how they had certain ones that were pumping out outrageous amounts of crude and was one of the leading examples of the abiogenic theory.
Do you have any links to some other papers/essays/what not about how think the process is happening. By no means do I understand or even by all the way into Peak Oil however there seems to be something behind this resource and the power plays behind it....of course.....


I believe you are referring to the Dnieper-Donetsk Basin. This is the field that rocked Western geoscience's little world. The oil and gas is being produced from a formation (Pre-Cambrian) that predates photosynthetic-based surface life (as Thomas Gold would state it in The Deep Hot Biosphere). Western geoscientists replied that the source rock slid under the producing formations (somehow). Talk about reaching...

I do not have the bookmarks for these topics anymore and i had collected quite a bit 4-5 years ago, but a google search for the hot words in this thread should yield plenty of reading material. Here is one:

http://www.gasresources.net/DDBflds2.htm

And from the article, what Gold was hoping someone would do, and what he tried to do in Sweden:

There is also research presently under progress which has established the presence of deep, anaerobic, hydrocarbon metabolizing microbes in the oil from the wells in the uppermost petroliferous zones of the crystalline basement rock in the Dnieper-Donets Basin.


If you read Gold's book, you will find that this is very hard to do.
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Postby Jeff » Tue Nov 17, 2009 5:54 pm

Though "leaders' heads remain stuck in the sand" isn't quite right, given the falsification of estimates to forestall panic.


The one thing depleting faster than oil is the credibility of those measuring it


The challenge of feeding billions of people as fuel supplies fall is staggering. And yet leaders' heads remain stuck in the sand

George Monbiot
guardian.co.uk, Monday 16 November 2009


I don't know when global oil supplies will start to decline. I do know that another resource has already peaked and gone into free fall: the credibility of the body that's meant to assess them. Last week two whistleblowers from the International Energy Agency alleged that it has deliberately upgraded its estimate of the world's oil supplies in order not to frighten the markets. Three days later, a paper published by researchers at Uppsala University in Sweden showed that the IEA's forecasts must be wrong, because it assumes a rate of extraction that appears to be impossible. The agency's assessment of the state of global oil supplies is beginning to look as reliable as Alan Greenspan's blandishments about the health of the financial markets.

If the whistleblowers are right, we should be stockpiling ammunition. If we are taken by surprise, if we have failed to replace oil before the supply peaks then crashes, the global economy is stuffed. But nothing the whistle-blowers said has scared me as much as the conversation I had last week with a Pembrokeshire farmer.

Wyn Evans, who runs a mixed farm of 170 acres, has been trying to reduce his dependency on fossil fuels since 1977. He has installed an anaerobic digester, a wind turbine, solar panels and a ground-sourced heat pump. He has sought wherever possible to replace diesel with his own electricity. Instead of using his tractor to spread slurry, he pumps it from the digester on to nearby fields. He's replaced his tractor-driven irrigation system with an electric one, and set up a new system for drying hay indoors, which means he has to turn it in the field only once. Whatever else he does is likely to produce smaller savings. But these innovations have reduced his use of diesel by only around 25%.

According to farm scientists at Cornell University, cultivating one hectare of maize in the United States requires 40 litres of petrol and 75 litres of diesel. The amazing productivity of modern farm labour has been purchased at the cost of a dependency on oil. Unless farmers can change the way it's grown, a permanent oil shock would price food out of the mouths of many of the world's people. Any responsible government would be asking urgent questions about how long we have got.

Instead, most of them delegate this job to the International Energy Agency. I've been bellyaching about the British government's refusal to make contingency plans for the possibility that oil might peak by 2020 for the past two years, and I'm beginning to feel like a madman with a sandwich board. Perhaps I am, but how lucky do you feel? The new World Energy Outlook published by the IEA last week expects the global demand for oil to rise from 85m barrels a day in 2008 to 105m in 2030. Oil production will rise to 103m barrels, it says, and biofuels will make up the shortfall. If we want the oil, it will materialise.

The agency does caution that conventional oil is likely to "approach a plateau" towards the end of this period, but there's no hint of the graver warning that the IEA's chief economist issued when I interviewed him last year: "We still expect that it will come around 2020 to a plateau … I think time is not on our side here." Almost every year the agency has been forced to downgrade its forecast for the daily supply of oil in 2030: from 123m barrels in 2004, to 120m in 2005, 116m in 2007, 106m in 2008 and 103m this year. But according to one of the whistleblowers, "even today's number is much higher than can be justified, and the International Energy Agency knows this".

The Uppsala report, published in the journal Energy Policy, anticipates that maximum global production of all kinds of oil in 2030 will be 76m barrels per day. Analysing the IEA's figures, it finds that to meet its forecasts for supply, the world's new and undiscovered oilfields would have to be developed at a rate "never before seen in history". As many of them are in politically or physically difficult places, and as capital is short, this looks impossible. Assessing existing fields, the likely rate of discovery and the use of new techniques for extraction, the researchers find that "the peak of world oil production is probably occurring now".

Are they right? Who knows? Last month the UK Energy Research Centre published a massive review of all the available evidence on global oil supplies. It found that the date of peak oil will be determined not by the total size of the global resource but by the rate at which it can be exploited. New discoveries would have to be implausibly large to make a significant difference: even if a field the size of all the oil reserves ever struck in the US were miraculously discovered, it would delay the date of peaking by only four years. As global discoveries peaked in the 1960s, a find like this doesn't seem very likely.

Regional oil supplies have peaked when about one third of the total resource has been extracted: this is because the rate of production falls as the remaining oil becomes harder to shift when the fields are depleted. So the assumption in the IEA's new report, that oil production will hold steady when the global resource has fallen "to around one half by 2030" looks unsafe. The UK Energy Research Centre's review finds that, just to keep oil supply at present levels, "more than two thirds of current crude oil production capacity may need to be replaced by 2030 … At best, this is likely to prove extremely challenging." There is, it says "a significant risk of a peak in conventional oil production before 2020". Unconventional oil won't save us: even a crash programme to develop the Canadian tar sands could deliver only 5m barrels a day by 2030.

As a report commissioned by the US Department of Energy shows, an emergency programme to replace current energy supplies or equipment to anticipate peak oil would need about 20 years to take effect. It seems unlikely that we have it. The world economy is probably knackered, whatever we might do now. But at least we could save farming. There are two possible options: either the mass replacement of farm machinery or the development of new farming systems that don't need much labour or energy.

There are no obvious barriers to the mass production of electric tractors and combine harvesters: the weight of the batteries and an electric vehicle's low-end torque are both advantages for tractors. A switch to forest gardening and other forms of permaculture is trickier, especially for producing grain; but such is the scale of the creeping emergency that we can't afford to rule anything out.

The challenge of feeding seven or eight billion people while oil supplies are falling is stupefying. It'll be even greater if governments keep pretending that it isn't going to happen.

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Postby justdrew » Tue Nov 17, 2009 6:16 pm

it's pretty obvious they have no intention of feeding billions for much longer.
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