MC and delusions (loads of TRIGGERS)

[lightningBugout]

Interestingly I am having a different than expected outcome in reading through some of the 'wavie' material. Harlan Girard, featured in the piece I posted earlier, sounds quite reputable. Again, I have no way to assess his testimony, but his research sounds fairly solid. Didn't bookmark it but can say I found a reference to him discovering a So-Cal based defense contractor who is documented to have produced EM weaponry. He apparently believes they have also produced v2skull technology.

I doubt I will spend much time on it, but I think the phenomena is much more complicated than I did previously. Gloria Naylor, the well known African American author apparently published a book called 1996 about her own experiences as a self-reported "targeted individual."

I do however, see the differences between the phenomenological reports of survivors of childhood TBMC and people claiming electronic harassment as even greater than I did previously, even if someone like Barracuda chooses to argue that the two phenomena may be lateral in their believability.

Though, on the other hand, some of the experiences reported here (thinking of you LPT) are as different from my own as those of 'TIs.'

I think it all comes down to the fight to free psychology and psychiatry from regimes of repression. As much as 9/11 research basically begins from the standpoint that evil and corruption are real and thus it should never have been a forgone conclusion that the govt. was not involved, individuals reporting non-ordinary (or extraordinary) experiences should not be immediately treated as "delusional."

Seems to me that what all of this comes down to is attempting to systematically destruct alienation. To stop using fascist lies to negate others. To place our reverence for the integrity of others and their stories ahead of the social propaganda we have been taught again and again. People worry so much here about some imagined threat of MC survivors stories being accepted un-critically. Yet that fear, which seems well-intentioned but highly mis-directed, constantly places the onus on any person who has an unusual story to report. Maybe I'm just feeling wistful because it is almost Thanksgiving, but I think what we really need in this conversation is more intuition and more generosity of spirit.

[barracuda]

Just to be clear, I'm not making an argument based on judging the believability of the reports of targeted individuals, any more than I would judge yours.

I believe I learned that from you, for which I am truly thankful.

[lightningBugout]

Thanks and just to be clear - what I wrote was not meant to portray you in any sort of negative light. Quite the opposite. Now buy me a drink. Next one is one me, however.

ps. I probably ought to just buy a congratulatory round for all of RI (including the Pepper drinkers) seeing as we've arrived at page 14 of an MC thread largely still intact, having resolved alot of differences, successfully weeding out a troll and bringing it back to topic at least twice, dealing mostly kindly with an ally who sort of appeared to be an adversary for a moment, etc. Hell of an improvement. Cheers.

[Col. Quisp]

c

[LilyPatToo]

lightningBugout said:

I do however, see the differences between the phenomenological reports of survivors of childhood TBMC and people claiming electronic harassment as even greater than I did previously, even if someone like Barracuda chooses to argue that the two phenomena may be lateral in their believability.

Though, on the other hand, some of the experiences reported here (thinking of you LPT) are as different from my own as those of 'TIs.'

That, I think, is due to there having been a number of programs run by very different groups for their own reasons, rather than one monolithic Program—at least by the time the MKULTRA era ended. My story is similar to that of other slaves who were used mainly as sex slaves (prostituted). But even within that general group, peoples’ experiences vary quite a bit, depending on how high up the food chain their handlers’ contacts went. I suspect that for every “Presidential model” there were a lot of women (and some men, too) who were bought and sold at much less elevated levels, like me. I’ve known some of them and was forced to work with others whose names I was never told.

And, as I said before, a number of highly credible survivors have reported being used in radiation experiments as well—Valerie Wolfe brought two of them to testify before Clinton’s committee hearings.

Introduction

Victim 1

Victim 2

Like me, they were in early mind control programs as children, used as sex slaves and “lent” to other scientists for really terrible experiments, some of which involved exposure to radiation. And I doubt if it was a coincidence that my ex-husband and also my most recent known handler here in California were scientists working in atomic energy at national laboratories. See Carol Rutz’s book A Nation Betrayed for a number of other examples. It’s been a while since I read it, but I’m pretty sure that some survivors reported programs that were military, some government/intel-run and some seem to have been sold or passed between several programs over many years.

My history is going to vary widely from that of anyone used mainly in military programs, for one example. I’ve met some people with no awareness of having been used in any government programs at all, but who grew up in Cult/cult families and whose sex slavery years were similar to my own. During a period of 6 years I also met what I believe were other victims of Mafia-run human trafficking operations that used mind controlled individuals.

Lots of survivors of an unknown number of programs, some of whom have really complicated histories in multiple programs. That’s one reason why I was glad when we were posting about our individual experiences. Some of the lurkers reading here are survivors and if all they hear about is one sort of experience of growing up in a mind control program, they may not find that corroborating detail that could resonate with them, personally, and set them on the path to understanding hidden parts of their pasts.

LilyPat

[Col. Quisp]

x

[Joe Hillshoist]

Have you got a garden col?

That often helps with the sort of ennui you mentioned.

[Peregrine]

...and there may be others lurking who might have DID or something like DID, but arrived there through non-MK routes (like those who had weird childhoods, for example) ...

In my case, I've been trying to recover memories but can't access anything much. So I am concluding my DID like symptoms (which are diminishing as I age) are based on some milder form of youthful trauma that happens to lots of kids, rather than the government brand. But I think many people are DID to some extent...and afraid to admit or unaware of it. It's really scary to even say these things in a public forum. what has gotten into me??

Lately I have been feeling just so disconnected from everything and everyone. Nothing seems real or substantial. Feeling just hamstrung. Hemmed in. Blocked. it's really annoying and depressing but it's not depression although it could be and I don't wanna admit it. Feelings of impending doom everywhere. As if the universe has discarded me. No one hears me. I'm getting smaller and smaller....why do they show that triggering Judy Garland movie every year at this time?

Hope no one minds, but I thought I'd chime in. I've been following this thread myself to an extent. I'm finding it quite difficult to wrap my head around some of the horrendous things that have happened to folks posting on here, & in all honesty, I find I have to skim, as it's hard to read. That in no way negates the experiences, but I'm finding that reading this thread, along with some of the abuse case threads of recent, have been digging up a lot of unpleasant personal things for me. I've been having bad dreams the past week, & I'm assuming that's some of my unpleasantries surfacing.

Personally, I've never gone through some of the abuse the folks on here have, but I have had some tramautic incidents from early years, some I cannot recall, but that involved family members that are no longer a part of my life. I don't claim to have anything such as DID, but, I will say I know the feeling of disassociating from very unpleasant experiences & once I was removed from the abusive situation, depression hit quite hard & I was then suffering PTSD.

I do tend to lurk mostly when it comes to threads like this that are more of a serious nature, but post mostly in lighter threads, as I find it 'safer' so to speak.

Lilypat & Col. Quisp, your posts above prompted me to chime in, I suppose. There were some very interesting links near the begining of this thread on DID & PTSD that I bookmarked & will probably take a gander. I feel I need to look over this thread again, as I did skim a lot.

And Joe's suggestion of gardening is an excellent one. It's very theraputic. I've got a bunch of indoor plants I tend to, but this week they're looking a little wilted. But I thank the folks brave enough to share their experiences. I'm now retreating to the lounge.

[compared2what?]

Hi, everybody. I come in peace, in part to honor the thread, which just keeps getting more and more good, and in part because although I'm not happy about it, I couldn't live with myself if I didn't post a brief public service announcement about the potential unsafety of using the RST techniques for purging anger recommended by Elnora Van Winkle, referenced earlier and discussed here.

First of all, I want to make it clear that I'm not by any means harshing on or condemning her work on a wholesale basis. I wish I'd known her, actually. She wrote some truth, for which she really had an exceptional gift. And she clearly wasn't motivated by anything other than the wish to help others. However, her science is not scientific, to put it mildly. Although in itself, that's no crime, imo, because it still has metaphorical value. Plus, very important, I want to emphasize that I don't think using the methods she suggests on an every-now-and-again basis would be very likely to hurt anyone at all. On the contrary, it would probably be good for most of them.

But using them in the way she recommends just has one million and one kinds of potential health risk attached to it, depending on individual medical factors. And that's sadly that, I'm (virtually) certain, though I can't really say much more with any kind of authority. Because, um, I'm not a doctor. (And even if I were, I wouldn't practice medicine over the internet on the RI forum.) It's more like: I do know enough about neuroscience to see that she's presenting a very shaky hypothesis, the premise of which is fifty years out of date. And while I don't much about medicine, I do know that in a general way, any program that calls for you regularly to get extremely worked up -- either physically or emotionally -- with no introductory routine, no gradual wind-down, and no supervision probably isn't safe for everyone and might be pretty dangerous for some.

I should probably disclose that I'm a little extra-concerned, and maybe without cause, because the reason I know even that much is that I've seen stuff that was very similar being used in cult settings. And I know that the reason that cults do it is that it leaves people in a more trance-state-inductible condition than they'd otherwise be. So I totally concede that I'm way too easily alarmed about almost anything I learned in that context. But nevertheless, I find that alarming. Which I'll now try to put aside, for long enough to say:

While t's probably no issue at all, unless you're going full-out anger-redirective several times a day, just to be cautious, if there's a doctor you trust, and you're using RST, you should consult him or her about it, or get a check up, or something along those lines.

Okay? Thanks in advance for the tolerance, and stay well.

c2w

[Free]

sw wrote:

I thought I'd tackle part of your question from my perspective on the healthy side of DID.

If I had not split and become DID, I think I would have been too emotionally crushed to be able to go to school.

It also helped me survive (so not healthy but pure survival) because my father would rage if I acted hurt. The parts enabled me to live another day because the raped part would go inside and another part would go to breakfast.

I see it as a healthy response to hell which enabled me to cope until I was out and able to fall apart, heal and then emerge as just me.

I have not experienced a lot of what others describe in this thread.

I do mourn the loss of some of my brain or mind...that is gone. Medications I took allowed me to take on my past gradually. My sleep was disturbed pretty bad. I rarely slept well. The sleep meds allowed me to live but they damaged my brain in the process. I used to be able to write well and think pretty well. I was sharp. I was on my game.

Now, I am happy I survived but I am sad as I struggle to get the words out. 17 years of hard core drugs screwed my mind so that I no longer can pull the right words from space. I know what I once was and I see myself today. Yes, I survived...but there was a cost.

I used to write when I was in college. It was good. Now, all of that is gone.

sw- I've always been very moved by your writing. And if writing moves me I consider it to be very good. I think your honesty and the way you come from the heart are just as, or more powerful than sharp logic or hyper-organized reasoning. Speaking from the heart like you do touches others.

I understand when you say that you're sad about what you feel you've lost from taking drugs for so long, I'm just glad that you've chosen to write about your experiences and speak out to the public.

[American Dream]

compared2what? wrote:

I couldn't live with myself if I didn't post a brief public service announcement about the potential unsafety of using the RST techniques for purging anger recommended by Elnora Van Winkle, referenced earlier and discussed here.

First of all, I want to make it clear that I'm not by any means harshing on or condemning her work on a wholesale basis. I wish I'd known her, actually. She wrote some truth, for which she really had an exceptional gift. And she clearly wasn't motivated by anything other than the wish to help others. However, her science is not scientific, to put it mildly. Although in itself, that's no crime, imo, because it still has metaphorical value. Plus, very important, I want to emphasize that I don't think using the methods she suggests on an every-now-and-again basis would be very likely to hurt anyone at all. On the contrary, it would probably be good for most of them.

But using them in the way she recommends just has one million and one kinds of potential health risk attached to it, depending on individual medical factors. And that's sadly that, I'm (virtually) certain, though I can't really say much more with any kind of authority. Because, um, I'm not a doctor. (And even if I were, I wouldn't practice medicine over the internet on the RI forum.) It's more like: I do know enough about neuroscience to see that she's presenting a very shaky hypothesis, the premise of which is fifty years out of date. And while I don't much about medicine, I do know that in a general way, any program that calls for you regularly to get extremely worked up -- either physically or emotionally -- with no introductory routine, no gradual wind-down, and no supervision probably isn't safe for everyone and might be pretty dangerous for some.

I should probably disclose that I'm a little extra-concerned, and maybe without cause, because the reason I know even that much is that I've seen stuff that was very similar being used in cult settings. And I know that the reason that cults do it is that it leaves people in a more trance-state-inductible condition than they'd otherwise be. So I totally concede that I'm way too easily alarmed about almost anything I learned in that context. But nevertheless, I find that alarming. Which I'll now try to put aside, for long enough to say:

While t's probably no issue at all, unless you're going full-out anger-redirective several times a day, just to be cautious, if there's a doctor you trust, and you're using RST, you should consult him or her about it, or get a check up, or something along those lines.

I'd agree that RST is not 'the cure" for all people at all times. Without claiming to know everything their is to know about RST, I would say it is similar to other emotional release techniques that I have practiced both as a participant in group and individual sessions,

For the right person, at the right time in their life, venting anger in a focused way could be part of a liberatory process. It's quite true that it could also be used in a culty setting to make the person psychologically vulnerable and manipulable and part of the cult's "group mind".

There's also the danger that the simple venting of feeling- any feeling- won't really get it, and that one could actually stay really stuck despite their ability to emote on the drop of a dime.

So, yes, cautions are in order, but for someone who is at the right place in their own journey, able to contain and focus these sorts of techniques and to avoid manipulations by others, it could also be quite good.

[Free]

C2W wrote:

First of all, I want to make it clear that I'm not by any means harshing on or condemning her work on a wholesale basis. I wish I'd known her, actually. She wrote some truth, for which she really had an exceptional gift. And she clearly wasn't motivated by anything other than the wish to help others. However, her science is not scientific, to put it mildly. Although in itself, that's no crime, imo, because it still has metaphorical value. Plus, very important, I want to emphasize that I don't think using the methods she suggests on an every-now-and-again basis would be very likely to hurt anyone at all. On the contrary, it would probably be good for most of them.

While t's probably no issue at all, unless you're going full-out anger-redirective several times a day, just to be cautious, if there's a doctor you trust, and you're using RST, you should consult him or her about it, or get a check up, or something along those lines.

Thanks, C2w. Yes, I agree that it's always good to look critically at all sides of things.

I wasn't sharing RST as any kind of panacea or must-do therapy, I'm very against "one size fits all" approaches and black and white thinking. I'll say that I also noticed a bit of possible shakiness in Elinora's overall premise, but, that said, I think, if used in moderation, expressing one's anger in a therapeutic way can be a great help.

Depending on how you do it, it can also be good exercise... which (I think we all agree) is healthy and exhilarating. If you're in touch with your own body, you'll feel when you need it, and how much you need to do.

Elinora, (like many innovators championing their new therapeutic discoveries) has a bit of tunnel vision and perhaps recommends it in a "this is the answer" kind of way. I see it more as an adjunct to an overall therapeutic healing journey or process...

Actually, I've been wanting to share another self-healing method I've found, that, I think, has a more solid scientific foundation and is gentle and very effective for releasing trauma. It's called TRE (Trauma releasing exercise) and was developed by David Berceli, who is a PHD in Social Work and Massage Therapist.

I should probably start another thread for that... I did it:

TRE -New Trauma Healing Breakthrough Method
http://rigorousintuition.ca/board/viewtopic.php?p=299287#299287

Anyway after reading the comments of Peregrine, Col. Quisp and others who've shared on this thread, my whole view of this forum has changed.

Before, I think I saw R.I. as: some open-minded researchers alla Jeff, a few survivors, people interested in the dark side of politics with a large sprinkling of party animals looking for conspirotainment. (let's not even mention the trolls, gov. agents, fanatics, etc...)

Now I'm realizing that, most are attracted to this site for their own personal reasons and traumas, which to me seems much less superficial.

And even if the mythical trauma-free person exists, we're all impacted by the political repercussions of the choices made by leaders and governments who, along with their usual power seeking, scramble to cover-up and do damage control.

For example, all victims of sexual abuse are hurt by the massive campaign to cover-up the imposed sexual abuse of MK Ultra...

Anyway, I hope everyone has a splendid day...



PS: Cordelia- The "Expose`- Messing with our minds" article was GREAT! (more later)...

[Maddy]

...and there may be others lurking who might have DID or something like DID, but arrived there through non-MK routes (like those who had weird childhoods, for example) ...

In my case, I've been trying to recover memories but can't access anything much. So I am concluding my DID like symptoms (which are diminishing as I age) are based on some milder form of youthful trauma that happens to lots of kids, rather than the government brand. But I think many people are DID to some extent...and afraid to admit or unaware of it. It's really scary to even say these things in a public forum. what has gotten into me??

Lately I have been feeling just so disconnected from everything and everyone. Nothing seems real or substantial. Feeling just hamstrung. Hemmed in. Blocked. it's really annoying and depressing but it's not depression although it could be and I don't wanna admit it. Feelings of impending doom everywhere. As if the universe has discarded me. No one hears me. I'm getting smaller and smaller....why do they show that triggering Judy Garland movie every year at this time?

Dissociation is on a spectrum, and even with DID there is a spectrum.

With dissociation there is the regular old, every day dissociation that every one experiences, such as when you space out doing dishes, lose yourself in a movie, or white-line fever. When you're doing something, and suddenly it's done, and something happens such as a car wreck and you freak out and later you can't recall exactly what occurred. That is normal. Then you have DID/MPD on the other end of the spectrum where your "forgetting" is actually isolating aspects of a trauma, or traumas, into little boxes inside your brain, and you forget they are there.

Sometimes the little boxes have personalities, full-blown lives, names, and histories. These are alters. Other times those little boxes are nothing but "okay I can drive", or "okay I can rip out this person's throat by using my hands and body this way". These are incomplete alters, or fragments.

So yeah, dissociation is also a part of PTSD. You can be PTSD and not DID and have dissocative episodes (including amnesiac fugues). You can not be PTSD and still have dissociation on a lower level. Dissociation is a normal, common state of mind.

The harsher the abuse/trauma, at a young age, the more likely DID/MPD. But even then not everyone has the ability or access to use this protective mechanism. The older you are, the more likely it is C-PTSD or PTSD (depending on the circumstance). They (psychiatric community) are discovering that these things are more common, in their varying forms, than they once thought. As a matter of fact, its suspected that some people who were "diagnosed" as schizophrenic, or even possessed, and on back into history were DID/MPD. The first diagnosis of DID/MPD was 1646 by Eberhardt Gmelin.

And I wonder the same thing you do, about people who have had other (weirdness) situations, which could have been traumatic for a child, but not typical abuse or program.

[Cordelia]

Have you got a garden col?

That often helps with the sort of ennui you mentioned.

For those of us in cold or seasonal climates: I haven't done this in awhile, but something that's very therapeutic and life affirming is to grow an indoor winter garden by ‘forcing bulbs’. Best to start in October when it starts getting cold, but November isn’t too late. You need a basement or any room where you can keep the bulbs cold and out of the light (Paperwhite narcissus don’t need the cold storage and others, like Hyacinth, can be grown in the refrigerator). Hyacinth, Daffodils and Paperwhites are the easiest and hardiest, but I’ve also had success with tulips. Once planted, all the care they need is to be watered about once a week and, after roots have started growing through the drainage holes and the bulb breaks the surface of the dirt and begins growing, very gradually introduced to light.

It takes about three months for them to grow & bloom, but in January or February, you get to enjoy a vibrantly colorful & fragrant garden in the middle of winter. (After the flowers have died, you can dig out the bulb & roots from the pot, wrap them up to store in the refrigerator until spring transplant them outdoors. It might take a couple of years for them to come up as out-door flowers, and they’ll probably be dwarfed, but usually they’ll survive).

Most nurseries have brochures alongside the bulbs, and there’s a lot of information online:
http://www.extension.iastate.edu/Public ... PM1319.pdf

[LilyPatToo]

I can heartily endorse gardening as a way to cope with PTSD too. Just recently I managed to overcome an odd (probably post-hypnotic suggestion-type) "block" to even being able to go into my large back yard. That block lasted over 5 years and seems to have been linked to a very traumatic accessing that happened there, in the garden shed that I'd built--the place that was supposed to be my refuge. I dissociated so completely that I only remembered a single sentence that the man spoke--the first thing he said--the rest was missing time. It took several years for me to even be able to bear to identify the man's distinctive voice, but when I did, it turned out to be the national lab scientist.

Over the years that I was locked out of my garden, it reverted quickly to brush and brambles. The decade of backbreaking labor I'd put into it mostly vanished and the shed stood roofed but unfinished, which nearly broke my heart. A close friend who knows about my history was determined to get me back into my garden and worked with me to get me past the trauma of the accessing. This summer it finally happened--on July 4th I made it down the steps.

Every so often, I'm still blindsided by a panic attack when I'm inside the shed, but I'm not letting that keep me out of my yard anymore. With my friend's help, we're slowly reclaiming the beds and paths. In the late 1920's, it was a formal terraced hillside garden, so there are many cracked, fallen concrete retaining walls to excavate and raise, besides all the brush-clearing and replanting. But it's wonderful to have my hands in the soil again!

For abuse survivors who don't have access to outdoor growing space, it's possible to garden indoors--I did it during all the years that I lived in apartments. The act of nurturing plants is tremendously healing. It can reconnect a victim of violent abuse with Life in a form that is non-threatening and non-triggering. For that handler to have accessed me in my lovingly-built shed, my longed-for Safe Place in the midst of beautiful flower beds, was breathtakingly cruel. I know a survivor who for years had every single bed she dug and planted destroyed by local Cult members, because they knew how important gardening was to her efforts to survive her abuse and thrive in spite of it.

Even just making time to walk through a local park or a plant nursery can be hugely soothing when the PTSD strikes. And if the survivor happens to be agoraphobic too, there are online nurseries with wonderful websites full of photos and articles on gardening that can help to soothe anxiety and flashbacks. One of my favorite local nurseries has one--Annie’s Annuals--with hundreds of pages of flowers (and Annie's enthusiastic commentary) to browse.

LilyPat